I wonder really what "ki" means.
Like biliyorumki = i know THAT.

But things like
benimki or istanbuldaki and so on, what is the correct translation for "ki"?

And also
tanisarak, olarak and so on, whats that?


yapmam, gelmem and this types of terms, can be used like
bilmem = i dont know
gelmem = i dont come

but also it can be used in other ways like
gitmem lazim = i need to go
when do i use this instead of gitmek or gitmeye??

sonuca, gelince?

olmasa, example "olsaydınız ne eklerdiniz"

dört dörtlük?

mesela?



bir durum?
yüzüme..?
vazgectim - vazgecmek?


Thanks =)

Hello Zubaidah,

I was worried that someone would ask these questions

Let's start with the infamous "ki". This "ki" entered the Turkish lingo as a result of old interactions with the Indo-European language speakers, and eventually naturalized itself over the centuries to the point that it now feels perfectly Turkish to the native speakers.

This "ki" is the same "ki" in Farsi, "que" in the Romance languages etc. The primary problem with this "ki", which is nothing but a conjunctor in the sense that it is supposed to conjoin two spearate predicaments, is that most Turks either do not know how to form coherent & grammatically correct sentences with "ki", or that they have quite a difficult time doing so. Briefly, the formation of proper "ki" sentences is a pain in the ass even for native speakers, who, in turn, constantly misuse "ki" in slang.

As a result, foreigners trying to learn Turkish get really confused about what they read in their grammar books and what they hear Turks say in daily speech.

- Anladim KI beni sevmiyormus. / I understood THAT he didn't love me.
- Bosalt ki bende tekrar doldurayim. / Empty it so that I can fill it again.
- Sus ki konusabilsin. / Be silent so that she can speak.

On the other hand, something like "bende bilmem ki" is slang, ungrammatical as it is incomplete, and is, in most cases, used in place of "bilmiyorum or bilmem", meaning nothing other than "I don't know." The use of both the -de suffix and the -ki is arbitrary, and in fact, grammatically wrong. Nevertheless, this colloquial form is extremely common.

"Bilmem ki naapsak (ne yapsak) simdi?" is another bogus formation, meaning "I don't know what we are supposed to do now." I could change this into "Bende bilmem ki ne yapsak simdi" or could simply say "Bilmem ne yapsak simdi". This could also take -ki and become "Bilmem ki ne yapsak simdi". They all mean the same thing. Bogus slang naturalizing itself. In everyday speech the use of "ki" is more of a style rather than a matter of Turkish language syntax. And, you can acquire this style only by observing how natives speak. In the written and formal form, on the other hand, "ki" is always used according to the grammar rules. In this role, it is very similar to the use of "that" in English, or "que" in Romance tongues. Your ability as a writer to use "ki" properly pretty much determines whether you are educated or not for those who have not done "dilbilgisi/grammar" exercises at school will often use "ki" incorrectly. As a result, you hear Istanbulites of Eastern Anatolian origin saying starange sentecnes, such as "Simdi arasam ki oda gelse" (meaning something like "I should call him so that he can come"). Then, you hear the so-called "educated" Istanbulite say something common, yet ungrammatical, as " O kim ki oyle demis?" (Who is he to say that?). Clearly, no Turk is actually sure about exactly how to use this "ki".

Regarding your question about bilmem/yapmam etc., I have to say that Turkish is the only language I know that has a rather strange system of double-meaning, in which one meaning is the opposite of the other meaning of the word. I agree that it is very absurd and have no explanation why this is so.

For example,

Anla+mak / to understand
Anla+ma / 1. Do not understand! 2. The act of understanding (something)
Anla+ma+mak / not to understand
Anla+m / meaning
Anla+s+a+ma+mak / not to get along (with each other)
Anlas+mak / to get along (with each other)

In all of these examples there are two dual and opposing meanings that are confusing.

"Anlamadim" (I didn't understand) can actually be broken down as (ANLA+MA)+ET+EM, which has become ANLAMADIM in Modern Turkish.
(ANLAMA) refers to the concept of NOT understanding & ET, which is the verb ET+MEK (to do) takes -EM for first person singular saying that you are doing the act of NOT understanding (basicall not understanding.)

I regret to say that there are no shortcuts to mastering this strange duality of the meaning of the -ma suffix. Although it is invisible to the native speakers, I can see how confusing it must be for someone trying to learn Turkish.

Regarding your question about the use of bilmem lazim vs bilmek lazim, the "bilmem, yapmam, etmem, gormem" forms are generally used with words, such as gerek (need) or lazim (necessary). Accordingly, bilmem gerek (I have to know) becomes bilmen gerek (you have to know).

Bilmek gerek on the other hand refers to the general concept of knowing about something.

- Universiteye gitmek icin once liseye gitmek gerek. / In order to go to university, one, first, has to go to high school.

- Universiteye gitmem icin once liseye gitmem gerek. / In order for ME to go to university, I, first have to go to high school.


- Beni anlamAN icin once beni sevmEN lazim. / You have to love me before you can understand me.

- Beni anlaMAK icin once sevmEN lazim. / You have to love me before you can understand me.

- Beni anlaMAK icin once sevMEK lazim. / In order to understand me, one has to love first.

- Beni anlaMAK icin once sevebilMEK lazim. / In order to understand me, one has to be able to love first.

- Beni anlamAN icin once sevebilmEN lazim. / You have to be able to love me before you can understand me.

- BenIM icin senIN buNU anlamAN onemli. / It is important for me that you understand this.

BenIM icin buNU anlaMAK onemli. / It is important for me to understand this.

SenIN icin buNU anlamAN onemli. / It is important for you that you understand this.

Gercegi bilmEN herkes icin onemli. / It is important for everyone that you kow the truth.

Gercegi bilMEK herkes icin onemli. / Knowing the truth is important for everyone.

I hope that some of these examples may shed some light on you path. Other than that, I am still analyzing the Turkish language myself. Maybe others may add more.

Regarding "tanisarak, olarak" etc., there are two suffixes that are fused into each other - (A,E,I,UR) and (A,EK).

Tanismak / To meet
Tanis+ar+ak / Roughly translates as "as a result of meeting each other", but it all evetually depends on the context.

- Konus+ar+ak anlastik. / We agreed after (through) talking.

Note how similar "Konus+AR" is to "Konus+UR" (someone who speaks, speaking etc), as in "Konus+UR+UM" (I speak, am speaking).

- SevisEREK evlendik. / Rouhgly translated as we made a love-marriage rather than a pre-arranged one.

- SavasARAK kurtulabildik. / We managed to survive by fighting.

- Devamli telefonda konusARAK kontagi kaybetmedik. / We managed not to lose contact with each other by talking over the telephone all the time.

Hence, you can assume that when you see the varient forms of this double siffix -arak, it usually denotes the act of doing the verb it is attached to. "Konusarak" can mean "through the act of talking, or while talking, by talking etc." depending on the context.

Cheers

cynicmystic :
Your post is the best I have read here lately!!!!!
Thank you, turkish learners like me are very grateful for your help and great explanations. Actually, nobody had ever told me what you wrote about -KI and yes, it is a real HEADACHE for learners! When I use it I do like this :

"Eminim ki beni hatirliyorsun"

But when I see it like that:

"Ama sen hiç gelmedin ki"!!!!

I dont know how to translate , I just DONT KNOW!!!!
I hope you can help me with my doubts.
Please, go on contributing to this site!!!!
Çok tesekkurler,
Dilara.

That was indeed a fine explanation. Thank you so much.

Cynicmystic I really wanna tell you HATS OFF !!!!!! It was excellent explanation!!!! ´Cause I must say, "ki" is for me "the linguistic nut" too because of difference between Turkish and my my language (Czech)...
But after reading your post I´m about some "ki-rules" clever...
really thank you!!!!!

Yes I really agree.
I do understand so much more now. Im an arabic native speaker and we also have a word like "ki" wich nobody really understands nowadays, but everybody keeps using.
This "ki" is a headache, indeed, but everything is so much clearer now thanks to you!
Keep up the good work!

Hi Dilara,

I am really happy to see that my post is of some help. I have the exact same problem when I try to translate sentences from one language to another.

In "Ama sen hic gelmedin ki.", you are naturally wondering about the function of "ki" at the end.

In this sentence, the primary key to look at is the first word "ama" (but), which clearly indicates that the context is clear to the speakers, and that the context is about one of them being absent or not having gone somewhere. They must have been talking at least for a bit about something before this sentence could be uttered. In coloquial speech, when you see "ki" being used in this way, what you are observing is actually a subconscious attempt to rid the sentence of the unnecessary part that is by then understood by both speakers. I know I sound a bit confusing, but I think this is the only way to understand the use of "ki" in this manner.

Let's assume that a son bumps into his father at the market, whom he hadn't seen for eight years due to a bad argument. The son, who had a baby very recently, is rather resentful of his father for not having put their differences aside to come by & see his newly born grandson.

In such a situation, were you to hear the son say to his father: "- Ama sende hic gelmedin ki", the ki is referring to the "real" issue, which is hidden, and yet know to the speakers. The real issue is that the grandfather has not yet seen his grandson.

- Ama sende hic gelmedin ki (torununu gorseydin./to see your grandson.) Technically speaking the conjuctor is there to connect two concepts, but the speakers both know what they are talking about, and hence the part that is unnecessary to mention again, which is the second part about not having seen the grandson is omitted. This omission serves two purposes for the native speaker in the sense that there is some kind of word economy taking place, and that the speaker is able to hint at something without being too direct or harsh. Think about it this way. Maybe, the father is already feeling emberrased that he has been a stubborn goat, and has not been forgiving his son even after something as important as the birth of a grandson. Now, if the son had said: "- Ama sende hic gelmedin ki torununu gorseydin.", this would perhaps sound like rubbing salt on an open wound. "- Had you come, you would have seen your grandson!" vs. "I feel sad that you haven't been around yet to see your grandson." One form is resentful, and the other is accusative.

So, if you really have to translate the meaning of a "ki" at the end of a sentence as the final word, I would suggest that it is best to find out what the "ki" is referring to in context prior to that sentence being said. What is the conversation about? What was the last topic in the last few sentences? If you listen to native speakers chit-chat, you would notice that as time goes on sentences tend to become shorter & shorter, as much of which should be clear from context is now omitted by the speakers.

Personally, I think of this "ki" more like a virus, and try to avoid it both in speech and writing.

I am also much confused about how this "ki" found a way to glue itself to SAN+mak (to suppose, imagine, think), and became SANKI (as if). Another linguistic mystery.

Thank you. I am glad it is of help.

Bir daha, çok tesekkur ederim cynicmystic,
Senin Yazdigin açıklama gerçekten faydaliydi!
"Ki" daha kolay görünüyor şimdi
Lutfen, burada yardim etmeye devam et,
Çok tesekkurler,
Dilara.

Cynicmystic, I think you are a bit unfair to Turkish native speakers. Now that it seems you should also mind your own "-de"s and "de"s which is a very common confusion; we are left with no one to speak Turkish good enough by your own reasoning.