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Turkish Poetry and Literature

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EROTIZMA-CAN YÜCEL
(351 Messages in 36 pages - View all)
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1.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 06:31 pm

EROTIZMA-CAN YÃœCEL

Kulagimin tozunda bir agustosböcegi Ask
-Erkekler giyinmek için giyinir
Kadinlar da soyunmak için-
Öyleyse kadinlarin arzulari üzre
Ben bütün kadinlari anadan dogma
görüyorum...
Apisaramda yeni dogmus bir kedi
Hiçdurma yaliyor erkekligimi
Nabzim sakaklarimda atiyor
Bir yaz yagmuru basliyor
Kan degil akçil bir dem bosaliyor
kamisimdan
Agustosböcekleri hâlâ ötüyor
Simdi biraz islaklar
====================================
EROTIC LIKE

A cicada on my ear, love
-Men get dressed to be dressed
and women get dressed to be naked-
Therefore, because of their desire,
I see all women stark-naked


A new born little kitten on my lap
Licking my manhood repeatedly
My pulse is throbbing on my temple
Then, a summer rain is starting
Not blood, a silvery drop, out of my pecker, is emerging .

Cicadas are still singing
They are just a bit soaked now.


My try..
ps..I was merely trying to translate this poem..sorry is if it is offensive..

2.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 06:52 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

-Men get dressed to be dressed
and women get dressed to be naked-


patriarchy, male supremacy in which they use women as sex objects for their enjoyment, as if women weren't humans

Quoting thehandsom:

Therefore, because of their desire,
I see all women stark-naked


sexual perversion, objectification of women

don't take this personally handsom. this is my view of this particular type of eroticism.

3.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:09 pm

who asked for this translation???

4.       adonis
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:09 pm

a masculine poem of Can Yücel. nice poem...

5.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:11 pm

Quoting KeithL:

who asked for this translation???


Nobody asked for this Keith..
It is just a poem I tried to translate..

6.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:11 pm

nice poem??? letting a cat lick your balls??? you have to be kidding me.

7.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:12 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting KeithL:

who asked for this translation???


Nobody asked for this Keith..
It is just a poem I tried to translate..



I don't find this offensive but I find it very very strange...

8.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:12 pm

Thanks handsom for the translation, but I have to agree with Keith... it's NOT a nice poem As a woman and a feminist, I find certain expressions too similar to the sexist, offensive against women patriarchy all around.

9.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:15 pm

well..you may not find it nice..
But in the end, poets write their state of mind..
He is DAMN GOOD POET..

And of course, he did not mean a cat cat..ok?

10.       geniuda
1070 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:15 pm

Quoting KeithL:

nice poem??? letting a cat lick your balls??? you have to be kidding me.


lol lol lol

11.       geniuda
1070 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:16 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

well..you may not find it nice..
But in the end, poets write their state of mind..
He is DAMN GOOD POET..

And of course, he did not mean a cat cat..ok?


I wonder which was his state of mind at the moment he wrote that poem
lol lol

12.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:17 pm

Quoting geniuda:

Quoting KeithL:

nice poem??? letting a cat lick your balls??? you have to be kidding me.


lol lol lol


It was not a CAT!!

13.       geniuda
1070 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:18 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting geniuda:

Quoting KeithL:

nice poem??? letting a cat lick your balls??? you have to be kidding me.


lol lol lol


It was not a CAT!!


then what was it?
lol

14.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:19 pm

Maybe a good poet. Picasso was also a good painter. But it didnt excuse him of his deviant obsessions. I still think its a strange entry to post here at TC. Good luck getting the responses your looking for...

15.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:19 pm

Quoting geniuda:

Quoting thehandsom:

well..you may not find it nice..
But in the end, poets write their state of mind..
He is DAMN GOOD POET..

And of course, he did not mean a cat cat..ok?


I wonder which was his state of mind at the moment he wrote that poem
lol lol


You dont want me to write 'his state of mind at the moment' here. do you Geniuda?

16.       adonis
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:22 pm

of course this poem is full of obscenity but poems shouldn't be read just like a novel, cuz poems have different meanings, structures and contents..

sexuality is a normal thing..

17.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:22 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Maybe a good poet. Picasso was also a good painter. But it didnt excuse him of his deviant obsessions. I still think its a strange entry to post here at TC. Good luck getting the responses your looking for...


I wonder what sort of responses I am looking for..

18.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:23 pm

Quoting adonis:

of course this poem is full of obscenity but poems shouldn't be read just like a novel, cuz poems have different meanings, structures and contents..

sexuality is a normal thing..



unrequested at TC? normal??

19.       geniuda
1070 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:25 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting geniuda:

Quoting thehandsom:

well..you may not find it nice..
But in the end, poets write their state of mind..
He is DAMN GOOD POET..

And of course, he did not mean a cat cat..ok?


I wonder which was his state of mind at the moment he wrote that poem
lol lol


You dont want me to write 'his state of mind at the moment' here. do you Geniuda?


actually no..that would it be too much

20.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:26 pm

Guys guys!!
This is a poem about masturbation..
And I am sure no animals were harmed..
Please ya..
This guy spent almost his entire life in an out jails and in an out of court rooms..
You are doing the same for his poetry here..
Please yani!!

offf...there is no kitten..it was his hand..

21.       joanne1980
125 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:28 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Guys guys!!
This is a poem about masturbation..
And I am sure no animals are harmed..
Please ya..
This guy spent almost his entire life in an out jails and in an out of court rooms..
You are doing the same for his poetry here..
Please yani!!

offf...there is no kitten..it was his hand..



im sure we realllllllly needed a poem all about masturbation handsom thanks for putting me off my dinner

22.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:29 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Guys guys!!
This is a poem about masturbation..
And I am sure no animals are harmed..
Please ya..
This guy spent almost his entire life in an out jails and in an out of court rooms..
You are doing the same for his poetry here..
Please yani!!

offf...there is no kitten..it was his hand..



Handsom....perhaps next time you will put a disclaimer...."No animals were harmed in the translation of this poem"...hahaha

23.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:30 pm

Quoting thehandsom:


offf...there is no kitten..it was his hand..



and this still isn't strange? Submitting poems about masturbation? Am I missing something here??

24.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:31 pm

Oh god..
I am tearing my hair here now!!!!

May be next time, I should think:
-this poem is about love -attempt to translate
-this poem is about life- attempt to translate
-this poem is about love with references to love making - hmm..think about it carefully
-this poem is about masturbation- NOOOOOOO lol lol

25.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:34 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Oh god..
I am tearing my hair here now!!!!



Why bother....it is almost time for your waxing!!!

26.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:35 pm

What's the problem with poems about masturbation. It's a turkish poet, so it's fine. It's his sexism that's bothering me.

27.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:36 pm

28.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:39 pm

29.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:52 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

May be next time, I should think


no, go ahead, show us the mysogyny of the turkish culture!

30.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:57 pm

I am sure handsom isnt attempting to sexist here he was simply translating a poem he liked by a poet he seems to admire.I agree it is a little bit strange but there is alot in art that is sexualised/erotic as Roswitha has demonstrated above.Chill out guys,its only a poem!

31.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 08:02 pm

Quoting SERA_2005:

I am sure handsom isnt attempting to sexist here he was simply translating a poem he liked by a poet he seems to admire.I agree it is a little bit strange but there is alot in art that is sexualised/erotic as Roswitha has demonstrated above.Chill out guys,its only a poem!


Sera

32.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 08:04 pm

Quoting SERA_2005:

I agree it is a little bit strange



this is the worst i said

33.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 08:05 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting SERA_2005:

I am sure handsom isnt attempting to sexist here he was simply translating a poem he liked by a poet he seems to admire.I agree it is a little bit strange but there is alot in art that is sexualised/erotic as Roswitha has demonstrated above.Chill out guys,its only a poem!


Sera




Why thank you so much!

34.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 08:07 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting SERA_2005:

I agree it is a little bit strange



this is the worst i said



Perhaps you should not type in that tone of voice again KeithL!! hahaha

35.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 08:24 pm

Quoting SERA_2005:

Chill out guys,its only a poem!


If I write a poem about terrorism, will you also say "it's just a poem"?

36.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 08:32 pm

Quoting joanne1980:


im sure we realllllllly needed a poem all about masturbation handsom thanks for putting me off my dinner


Masturbation puts you off your dinner?????

37.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 08:40 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting joanne1980:


im sure we realllllllly needed a poem all about masturbation handsom thanks for putting me off my dinner


Masturbation puts you off your dinner?????


It puts me off too... I mean takes me away... lol (GG, do you manage to do both at once?)

38.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 08:49 pm

Quoting catwoman:


It puts me off too... I mean takes me away... lol (GG, do you manage to do both at once?)


Well now that is a private matter kitty.
But it certainly doesn't make me sick to my stomach as meant by "it puts me off my dinner"!

39.       geniuda
1070 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 08:53 pm

Quoting catwoman:


It puts me off too... I mean takes me away... lol (GG, do you manage to do both at once?


And of course it is always good to set priorities so if "it puts me off my dinner"! then dinner can wait lol lol

40.       teaschip
3870 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 08:56 pm

Isn't it a very natural thing for men to do this, anyhow..

41.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:02 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Isn't it a very natural thing for men to do this, anyhow..


Yes, it is a very natural thing for men AND women.

42.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:10 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting teaschip1:

Isn't it a very natural thing for men to do this, anyhow..


Yes, it is a very natural thing for men AND women.



GG..this is a bed amerikan lie...who told you this...don't you know if you touch yourself you will go blind?

43.       teaschip
3870 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:11 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting teaschip1:

Isn't it a very natural thing for men to do this, anyhow..


Yes, it is a very natural thing for men AND women.



Bye the looks of the Hustler store down the street you are right AND women.

44.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:12 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Isn't it a very natural thing for men to do this, anyhow..


why just men?

45.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:14 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Bye the looks of the Hustler store down the street you are right AND women.


do we have an angel here who's there to judge the women who masturbate?

46.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:14 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting catwoman:


It puts me off too... I mean takes me away... lol (GG, do you manage to do both at once?)


Well now that is a private matter kitty.


I'll PM you about this

47.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:16 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting teaschip1:

Bye the looks of the Hustler store down the street you are right AND women.


do we have an angel here who's there to judge the women who masturbate?



do you mean judge like a contest???

48.       geniuda
1070 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:17 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting teaschip1:

Bye the looks of the Hustler store down the street you are right AND women.


do we have an angel here who's there to judge the women who masturbate?


I guess there are no angels around lol lol

49.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:17 pm

Quoting KeithL:

do you mean judge like a contest???


don'tya worry, no perverted men are allowed in!

50.       teaschip
3870 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:18 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting teaschip1:

Bye the looks of the Hustler store down the street you are right AND women.


do we have an angel here who's there to judge the women who masturbate?



do you mean judge like a contest???



I was commenting on the original post here. Of course women masturbate..is it natural? Sure, why not..And yes, I would like to think I'm an angel..

51.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:18 pm

good thing I'm not a pervert....

52.       geniuda
1070 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:20 pm

Quoting KeithL:

good thing I'm not a pervert....


53.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:20 pm

Quoting KeithL:

good thing I'm not a pervert....


hahaha, you still need to pass our rad fem test to prove it.

54.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:21 pm

Quoting geniuda:

Quoting KeithL:

good thing I'm not a pervert....




something to say???

55.       geniuda
1070 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:22 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting geniuda:

Quoting KeithL:

good thing I'm not a pervert....




something to say???


do you want me to say it in public?

56.       joanne1980
125 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:22 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting joanne1980:


im sure we realllllllly needed a poem all about masturbation handsom thanks for putting me off my dinner


Masturbation puts you off your dinner?????


in fact yes at dinner time it does lol...there is a time and place for everything. although i did NOT say it makes me SICK TO MY STOMACH ..your words not mine.
after dinner suits me just fine. anyhow

57.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:25 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:


GG..this is a bed amerikan lie...who told you this...don't you know if you touch yourself you will go blind?


I thought you got hair all over....which would explain why handsom looks like bigfoot!!

58.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:29 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting Elisabeth:


GG..this is a bed amerikan lie...who told you this...don't you know if you touch yourself you will go blind?


I thought you got hair all over....which would explain why handsom looks like bigfoot!!


that also explains why my vision is getting worse

59.       adonis
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:30 pm

quasi women never do masturbation. i laugh at this idea...

one of the reasons for the notion of feminism is to have sex without any partner. consequently and in general, sex toys or vibrators are invented for the feminist women.

it's very apparent, otherwise those kinda women couln't have satisfied themselves.

sexuality is a necessity for human beings.. it's very normal..

60.       geniuda
1070 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:35 pm

Quoting adonis:


sexuality is a necessity for human beings.. it's very normal..


I totally agree lol

61.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:36 pm

Quoting adonis:

quasi women never do masturbation. i laugh at this idea...

one of the reasons for the notion of feminism is to have sex without any partner. consequently and in general, sex toys or vibrators are invented for the feminist women.

it's very apparent, otherwise those kinda women couln't have satisfied themselves.

sexuality is a necessity for human beings.. it's very normal..


adomado, don't dogmatize here about things you don't live. you're not a woman, so you have no right to talk about women's sexuality.

62.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:36 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting Elisabeth:


GG..this is a bed amerikan lie...who told you this...don't you know if you touch yourself you will go blind?


I thought you got hair all over....which would explain why handsom looks like bigfoot!!


I was born with my hair..are you trying to insinuate something here..eh?

63.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:36 pm

Quoting adonis:

sexuality is a necessity for human beings.. it's very normal..


you've gotta be kidding me!!! lol

64.       teaschip
3870 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:37 pm

Quoting adonis:

quasi women never do masturbation. i laugh at this idea...

one of the reasons for the notion of feminism is to have sex without any partner. consequently and in general, sex toys or vibrators are invented for the feminist women.

it's very apparent, otherwise those kinda women couln't have satisfied themselves.

sexuality is a necessity for human beings.. it's very normal..



Sexuality for human beings is necessary and very normal, agree. However, those kinda women couldn't have satisfied themselves? What do you think vibrators are for? lol

You can also have a very sexual relationship and still use sex toys.

65.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:38 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting adonis:

quasi women never do masturbation. i laugh at this idea...

one of the reasons for the notion of feminism is to have sex without any partner. consequently and in general, sex toys or vibrators are invented for the feminist women.

it's very apparent, otherwise those kinda women couln't have satisfied themselves.

sexuality is a necessity for human beings.. it's very normal..


adomado, don't dogmatize here about things you don't live. you're not a woman, so you have no right to talk about women's sexuality.



Adonis...feminism isn't really about sex. If you think so, you have kind of missed the point.

66.       teaschip
3870 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:41 pm

There is a saying to, that it's not always the size of the wand but the magic. What if the magic doesn't perform, then what?

67.       geniuda
1070 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:44 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

There is a saying to, that it's not always the size of the wand but the magic. What if the magic doesn't perform, then what?


68.       teaschip
3870 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:45 pm

Quoting geniuda:

Quoting teaschip1:

There is a saying to, that it's not always the size of the wand but the magic. What if the magic doesn't perform, then what?




Go find a new wand? lol

69.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:45 pm

Quoting joanne1980:


in fact yes at dinner time it does lol...there is a time and place for everything. although i did NOT say it makes me SICK TO MY STOMACH ..your words not mine.
after dinner suits me just fine. anyhow


Uhhhh...when a person says they were put off thier dinner it typically means that they are made sick to their stomach.
What exactly was it you were trying to say if not that?

70.       adonis
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:46 pm

Quote:

Quoting catwoman:


adomado, don't dogmatize here about things you don't live. you're not a woman, so you have no right to talk about women's sexuality.



poor little catomado... are u disturbed from the truths?

anyway, go on showing your inferiority complex. it's very funny... i don't care with your entries and won't write again in this topic...

cuz Truths are Painful...

71.       joanne1980
125 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:46 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting joanne1980:


in fact yes at dinner time it does lol...there is a time and place for everything. although i did NOT say it makes me SICK TO MY STOMACH ..your words not mine.
after dinner suits me just fine. anyhow


Uhhhh...when a person says they were put off thier dinner it typically means that they are made sick to their stomach.
What exactly was it you were trying to say if not that?


i mean exactly what i say

72.       alameda
3499 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:48 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting KeithL:

who asked for this translation???


Nobody asked for this Keith..
It is just a poem I tried to translate..



I don't find this offensive but I find it very very strange...



If I may translate what I think is KeithL's issue with this translation; is this the proper content for THIS forum. Are we to become rated R restricted to Adult only?

Although there are many issues that are good to talk about, the audience one presents to must be considered. This forum is, as I understand it, for learning Turkish. As a learning site, we don't know the ages of visitors here. I know, I myself have referred people from different age groups and backgrounds to this site to learn Turkish.

73.       joanne1980
125 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:49 pm

Quoting alameda:

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting KeithL:

who asked for this translation???


Nobody asked for this Keith..
It is just a poem I tried to translate..



I don't find this offensive but I find it very very strange...



If I may translate what I think is KeithL's issue with this translation; is this the proper content for THIS forum. Are we to become rated R restricted to Adult only?

Although there are many issues that are good to talk about, the audience one presents to must be considered. This forum is, as I understand it, for learning Turkish. As a learning site, we don't know the ages of visitors here. I know, I myself have referred people from different age groups and backgrounds to this site to learn Turkish.



quite right

74.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:54 pm

Quoting alameda:


If I may translate what I think is KeithL's issue with this translation; is this the proper content for THIS forum. Are we to become rated R restricted to Adult only?


Hey Keith, I didn't know you needed translation from english to english!!!

75.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:54 pm

Quoting alameda:

If I may translate what I think is KeithL's issue with this translation; is this the proper content for THIS forum. Are we to become rated R restricted to Adult only?

Although there are many issues that are good to talk about, the audience one presents to must be considered. This forum is, as I understand it, for learning Turkish. As a learning site, we don't know the ages of visitors here. I know, I myself have referred people from different age groups and backgrounds to this site to learn Turkish.


canim, we didn't say ANYTHING that is R rated. unless you mean using the word "masturbation" please, the kids who can come here and read the word "masturbation" here are doing much worse stuff that we should really be concerned about. all they could learn here is that women masturbate and that's proper sexual education.

76.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:56 pm

Quoting joanne1980:


i mean exactly what i say


Wow...somebody's a bit touchy!!!

77.       KeithL
1455 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:56 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting alameda:


If I may translate what I think is KeithL's issue with this translation; is this the proper content for THIS forum. Are we to become rated R restricted to Adult only?


Hey Keith, I didn't know you needed translation from english to english!!!



I'm not as smart as I appear....

78.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 09:58 pm

Quoting KeithL:


I'm not as smart as I appear....


Yeah apparently...and no one is as smart as alameda!!!

79.       alameda
3499 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:00 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting KeithL:


I'm not as smart as I appear....


Yeah apparently...and no one is as smart as alameda!!!



Well, not everyone, but it's refreshing to see you recognize your limitations, canim.

80.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:02 pm

Quoting alameda:


Well, not everyone, but it's refreshing to see you recognize your limitations, canim.


And it's refreshing that you didn't post a link to show us exactly what Keith meant!

81.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:03 pm

Quoting alameda:


Well, not everyone, but it's refreshing to see you recognize your limitations, canim.


It's called sarcasm...shall I post a link for you so you know what it means?

82.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:11 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting alameda:


Well, not everyone, but it's refreshing to see you recognize your limitations, canim.


It's called sarcasm...shall I post a link for you so you know what it means?



We all know what sarcasm mean after I reading your comment for everybody but I can say that you need to be treated by me on sarcastic way.. after all you will be allright also I can sort it out your attitude problem ....

83.       MrX67
2540 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:38 pm

such an ugly lines and far from poet responsibilites,and i bet lines even get shamed from the hand which wrote em..

84.       teaschip
3870 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:39 pm

Quoting DR TREATMENT:

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting alameda:


Well, not everyone, but it's refreshing to see you recognize your limitations, canim.


It's called sarcasm...shall I post a link for you so you know what it means?



We all know what sarcasm mean after I reading your comment for everybody but I can say that you need to be treated by me on sarcastic way.. after all you will be allright also I can sort it out your attitude problem ....



Treatment from you?

85.       teaschip
3870 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:43 pm

Quoting MrX67:

such an ugly lines and far from poet responsibilites,and i bet lines even get shamed from the hand which wrote em..



What's even more disgusting is when somone has four wives, don't you think?

86.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:44 pm

why am I thinking about "male prostitution" now? lol

Anyway did you know that "There is evidence, to a greater or lesser degree, of male prostitution in all EU countries."?

87.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:45 pm

Quoting MrX67:

such an ugly lines and far from poet responsibilites,and i bet lines even get shamed from the hand which wrote em..


Have you ever really read Can Yucel MRX?

88.       MrX67
2540 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:47 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting MrX67:

such an ugly lines and far from poet responsibilites,and i bet lines even get shamed from the hand which wrote em..


Have you ever really read Can Yucel MRX?

honest i didn't,but i think no need to be a good fan of him to make comment about lines?

89.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:51 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Thanks handsom for the translation, but I have to agree with Keith... it's NOT a nice poem As a woman and a feminist, I find certain expressions too similar to the sexist, offensive against women patriarchy all around.



If all women were feminists, there would have been no male poets...

90.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 10:59 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting alameda:


Well, not everyone, but it's refreshing to see you recognize your limitations, canim.


It's called sarcasm...shall I post a link for you so you know what it means?



Why is there such a morbid fascination with Alameda's links?

The "powers that be" on the site have advised that a link is a better option than a long quote as it makes for easier monitoring. . . no long quotes to trawl through. Providing a link is a great way to inform people and they have the option to click or pass.

If people want to research a subject as a result of a discussion, then post the fruits of their research, I don't see anything negative in that. They are being generous by sharing. Of course not everyone will be interested so the choice is: click or pass.

Why is it that 'links' (or lack of them in this case)provoke such a negative reaction from some members? Seems to me the links are simply an excuse to have a dig at someone. What on earth for?

Click or pass dear people, click or pass, but please, don't criticise such harmless practice. There is no point to it.

91.       MrX67
2540 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:03 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting MrX67:

such an ugly lines and far from poet responsibilites,and i bet lines even get shamed from the hand which wrote em..



What's even more disgusting is when somone has four wives, don't you think?

whats connection???

92.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:27 pm

Quoting DR TREATMENT:


We all know what sarcasm mean after I reading your comment for everybody but I can say that you need to be treated by me on sarcastic way.. after all you will be allright also I can sort it out your attitude problem ....


My comment wasn't for everybody...it was for alameda. And I have absolutely no problem with my attitude....if you have a problem with it, I suggest YOU seek treatment.

93.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:33 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting DR TREATMENT:


We all know what sarcasm mean after I reading your comment for everybody but I can say that you need to be treated by me on sarcastic way.. after all you will be allright also I can sort it out your attitude problem ....


My comment wasn't for everybody...it was for alameda. And I have absolutely no problem with my attitude....if you have a problem with it, I suggest YOU seek treatment.


i read lots of what you comment for different people and you are tactless! calm down...i suppose you are single and hopeless. i suggest you find someone who is going to treat you nice in your private life. you will be a much optimist person about peoples comments and veiw here.
thankyou for your recommendation for myself to seek treatment..i am already being treated by some very nice British ladies.

94.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:34 pm

Quoting peace train:


Why is there such a morbid fascination with Alameda's links?


Oh how dramatic!!! Morbid fascination???? A bit over the top.....even for you!!

95.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:35 pm

Quoting DR TREATMENT:


i read lots of what you comment for different people and you are tactless! calm down...i suppose you are single and hopeless. i suggest you find someone who is going to treat you nice in your private life. you will be a much optimist person about peoples comments and veiw here.
thankyou for your recommendation for myself to seek treatment..i am already being treated by some very nice British ladies.


Don't be so obsessed with me, it's really not good for your health!

96.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:37 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting DR TREATMENT:


i read lots of what you comment for different people and you are tactless! calm down...i suppose you are single and hopeless. i suggest you find someone who is going to treat you nice in your private life. you will be a much optimist person about peoples comments and veiw here.
thankyou for your recommendation for myself to seek treatment..i am already being treated by some very nice British ladies.


Don't be so obsessed with me, it's really not good for your health!



i could not be obsessed with such a woman. do you think you are QUEEN!

97.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:39 pm

Quoting DR TREATMENT:

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting DR TREATMENT:


i read lots of what you comment for different people and you are tactless! calm down...i suppose you are single and hopeless. i suggest you find someone who is going to treat you nice in your private life. you will be a much optimist person about peoples comments and veiw here.
thankyou for your recommendation for myself to seek treatment..i am already being treated by some very nice British ladies.


Don't be so obsessed with me, it's really not good for your health!



i could not be obsessed with such a woman. do you think you are QUEEN!



should i treat you as your nickname girl or what you really are?

98.       libralady
5152 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:45 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

EROTIZMA-CAN YÃœCEL

Kulagimin tozunda bir agustosböcegi Ask
-Erkekler giyinmek için giyinir
Kadinlar da soyunmak için-
Öyleyse kadinlarin arzulari üzre
Ben bütün kadinlari anadan dogma
görüyorum...
Apisaramda yeni dogmus bir kedi
Hiçdurma yaliyor erkekligimi
Nabzim sakaklarimda atiyor
Bir yaz yagmuru basliyor
Kan degil akçil bir dem bosaliyor
kamisimdan
Agustosböcekleri hâlâ ötüyor
Simdi biraz islaklar
====================================
EROTIC LIKE

A cicada on my ear, love
-Men get dressed to be dressed
and women get dressed to be naked-
Therefore, because of their desire,
I see all women stark-naked


A new born little kitten on my lap
Licking my manhood repeatedly
My pulse is throbbing on my temple
Then, a summer rain is starting
Not blood, a silvery drop, out of my pecker, is emerging .

Cicadas are still singing
They are just a bit soaked now.


My try..
ps..I was merely trying to translate this poem..sorry is if it is offensive..



Where an earth did you find this? It is quite hilarious! The cat thing I mean, I have two cats and they licking their own (well if they had any!) balls...............

99.       eddie
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:45 pm

Quoting DR TREATMENT:

Quoting DR TREATMENT:

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting DR TREATMENT:


i read lots of what you comment for different people and you are tactless! calm down...i suppose you are single and hopeless. i suggest you find someone who is going to treat you nice in your private life. you will be a much optimist person about peoples comments and veiw here.
thankyou for your recommendation for myself to seek treatment..i am already being treated by some very nice British ladies.


Don't be so obsessed with me, it's really not good for your health!



i could not be obsessed with such a woman. do you think you are QUEEN!



should i treat you as your nickname girl or what you really are?



Ok Mr.Facination. There is no need to show your ignorance
by name-calling. Clearly, your manners announce you Dr T.
Read a book - it will do wonders for that vast wasteland
of yours...
: >

100.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:46 pm

http://islammonitor.org/uploads/pics/abbas.jpg

101.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:46 pm

Dr Treatment, really - stop these personal attacks.. this is a warning.

102.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:47 pm

[

Quoting DR TREATMENT:


should i treat you as your nickname girl or what you really are?


I couldn't care less what you do. You are nothing to me, so what you say or do has absolutely no impact.

103.       libralady
5152 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:49 pm

Well I have been missing out today! This would surely have brightened my day

Have you been reading to many boys own magazines Handsom? or are you just missing FF

104.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:56 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting peace train:


Why is there such a morbid fascination with Alameda's links?


Oh how dramatic!!! Morbid fascination???? A bit over the top.....even for you!!



I went to all that trouble and you didn't even quote any of my best bits!

Dramatic? Hmmm . . . Let me see . . .

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hkqqMPPg2VI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw&NR=1

105.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:57 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Dr Treatment, really - stop these personal attacks.. this is a warning.



sorry--- what is going on--- alliance ---?

106.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:57 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

[

Quoting DR TREATMENT:


should i treat you as your nickname girl or what you really are?


I couldn't care less what you do. You are nothing to me, so what you say or do has absolutely no impact.


HA HA HA ... you are everything for me my queen....

107.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 03 Mar 2008 Mon 11:58 pm

Quoting Roswitha:

We have three cats



I have three legs

108.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 12:01 am

Quoting catwoman:

Dr Treatment, really - stop these personal attacks.. this is a warning.



Here, I try to train girlegirl how to speak and polite to 3rd persons...

109.       eddie
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 12:01 am

Quoting DR TREATMENT:

Quoting catwoman:

Dr Treatment, really - stop these personal attacks.. this is a warning.



sorry--- what is going on--- alliance ---?



No, it's called COURTESY ....Look it up...Even try it sometime.
: >

110.       KeithL
1455 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 12:21 am

Quoting DR TREATMENT:

Quoting Roswitha:

We have three cats



I have three legs



all short we hear....so sad for you...

111.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 12:32 am

Quoting DR TREATMENT:


Quoting Roswitha:

We have three cats



I have three legs


What was it you were just telling me in chat??? That I need to learn manners? Take your own advice.

112.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 12:34 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting DR TREATMENT:


Quoting Roswitha:

We have three cats



I have three legs


What was it you were just telling me in chat??? That I need to learn manners? Take your own advice.



DIRTY MIND...

113.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:46 am

Come on people, whats the fuss. I enjoyed the poem. It was a wonderful game of words, put together in a way that suits Turkish and makes it so beautiful.

I dont think the poet himself either meant to imply sexism. I guess his mind was playing tricks on him because something in him was singing


Anyhow even if it was intended, it still is a nice piece of poetry!

Thanks for posting it thehandsom.

114.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:48 am

"Çiğ ve görgüsüz olmak"
This is a turkish phrase..
Çiğ can be translated as raw ,coarse, crass, crude, dirty, filthy, foul, gross, indecent, inelegant, low, mean, nasty, obscene, pornographic, rank, rough, rude, smutty, uncouth, unrefined, unscrupulous (according to thesaurus.reference.com)
My pick will be filthy,gross,nasty, obscene, rude

görgüsüz is an adjective: (meaning abrupt, bad-mannered,blunt, boorish, coarse, curt, discourteous, gross, gruff, ill-mannered, impolite, inconsiderate, insulting, mannerless, uncivilized, uncouth, uncultured, unfriendly, ungentlemanly, unmannerly, unpolished, unrefined, vulgar) according to thesaurus.reference.com.
I would personally pick uncivilized, uncouth, uncultured, unrefined and vulgar for it
well
"Çiğ ve görgüsüz olmak" means can be translated as 'being rude and vulgar"

a pause here
and a little history about one of the sultans 'genc osman'
The date is 20 May 1622, this sultan was taken by the janissaries from topkapi palace on a horse and through Beyazıt-Laleli-Aksaray-Davutpaşa (places in istanbul) he was brought to yedikule. But during the journey the sultan went through all kind of TREATMENT by the janissaries on the journey ie squuezing his butts , pinching his thighs etc.
And the treatment continued and ended up and of the night in one of the bottom cells in the marble tower ( which is at the sea side of) yedikule dungeon. ( there were many happy janissaries according to rumors)

another pause here.
it is not that often I am really ashhamed of my country man:
They might be poor..I love them.
They might be not well educated...I love them as they are.
They may not know how to eat with knives and forks. I love them and I would share bread with them at any time..
They are beautiful people, so as My country.
But when I see rude and vulgar people and if they are from my beautiful country.
I really feel ASHAMED of them.

What is history part of this writing got to do with it then?
I donno..I just thought some people need treatment..that historic incident came into my mind. .

Girleegirl,
you are a lady..we all love you..
ignore people who need a real treatment..

ps..I am not giving any name here..whoever thinks the shoe fits, should wear it..

115.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:49 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Come on people, whats the fuss. I enjoyed the poem. It was a wonderful game of words, put together in a way that suits Turkish and makes it so beautiful.

I dont think the poet himself either meant to imply sexism. I guess his mind was playing tricks on him because something in him was singing


Anyhow even if it was intended, it still is a nice piece of poetry!

Thanks for posting it thehandsom.


you are welcome DK.

116.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:54 am

Quoting MrX67:

such an ugly lines and far from poet responsibilites,and i bet lines even get shamed from the hand which wrote em..



A poet has no responsibilities, that is the good thing about writing I find it very backward to think of this as shameful.

As for the lines, I think they were just happy to be left alone and not have some cat play with them

117.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:55 am

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting DR TREATMENT:

I have three legs


all short we hear....so sad for you...


lol lol lol lol lol

118.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:57 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

I dont think the poet himself either meant to imply sexism. I guess his mind was playing tricks on him because something in him was singing


that is YOUR opinion canim!

119.       geniuda
1070 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:57 am

Quoting thehandsom:

"Girleegirl,
you are a lady..we all love you..
ignore people who need a real treatment....


I am with you hansome..
And this for you GG

120.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:58 am

Quoting catwoman:

that is YOUR opinion canim!




It sure is canım


I just thought of some new names for you and the handsome in case you ever feel like getting deleted and then come back


handwoman and thecatsom

121.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:01 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting catwoman:

that is YOUR opinion canim!




It sure is canım


I just thought of some new names for you and the handsome in case you ever feel like getting deleted and then come back


handwoman and thecatsom


DK..grrrrrr

122.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:01 am

Quoting geniuda:

Quoting thehandsom:

"Girleegirl,
you are a lady..we all love you..
ignore people who need a real treatment....


I am with you hansome..
And this for you GG


Thank you handsom and geniuda!!!!

123.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:03 am

I see that I hurt some ppls heart-- dont be childish kids.. be cool...and wake up..

note: catwoman warned me that regarding personal attack... look catwom,en, what you were doing now..

124.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:07 am

Quoting thehandsom:

"Çiğ ve görgüsüz olmak"
This is a turkish phrase..
Çiğ can be translated as raw ,coarse, crass, crude, dirty, filthy, foul, gross, indecent, inelegant, low, mean, nasty, obscene, pornographic, rank, rough, rude, smutty, uncouth, unrefined, unscrupulous (according to thesaurus.reference.com)
My pick will be filthy,gross,nasty, obscene, rude

görgüsüz is an adjective: (meaning abrupt, bad-mannered,blunt, boorish, coarse, curt, discourteous, gross, gruff, ill-mannered, impolite, inconsiderate, insulting, mannerless, uncivilized, uncouth, uncultured, unfriendly, ungentlemanly, unmannerly, unpolished, unrefined, vulgar) according to thesaurus.reference.com.
I would personally pick uncivilized, uncouth, uncultured, unrefined and vulgar for it
well
"Çiğ ve görgüsüz olmak" means can be translated as 'being rude and vulgar"

a pause here
and a little history about one of the sultans 'genc osman'
The date is 20 May 1622, this sultan was taken by the janissaries from topkapi palace on a horse and through Beyazıt-Laleli-Aksaray-Davutpaşa (places in istanbul) he was brought to yedikule. But during the journey the sultan went through all kind of TREATMENT by the janissaries on the journey ie squuezing his butts , pinching his thighs etc.
And the treatment continued and ended up and of the night in one of the bottom cells in the marble tower ( which is at the sea side of) yedikule dungeon. ( there were many happy janissaries according to rumors)

another pause here.
it is not that often I am really ashhamed of my country man:
They might be poor..I love them.
They might be not well educated...I love them as they are.
They may not know how to eat with knives and forks. I love them and I would share bread with them at any time..
They are beautiful people, so as My country.
But when I see rude and vulgar people and if they are from my beautiful country.
I really feel ASHAMED of them.

What is history part of this writing got to do with it then?
I donno..I just thought some people need treatment..that historic incident came into my mind. .

Girleegirl,
you are a lady..we all love you..
ignore people who need a real treatment..

ps..I am not giving any name here..whoever thinks the shoe fits, should wear it..



POOR GUY>> JUST PUSH PUSH>>>>

There is a Turkish phrase "Donek olmak" oo
I will not explain...come on guys... find out..

125.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:11 am

Aman tanrım...

126.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:17 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

It sure is canım


I just thought of some new names for you and the handsome in case you ever feel like getting deleted and then come back


handwoman and thecatsom


How do you like hand_kizin, DK???

127.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:18 am

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?

128.       CANLI
5084 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:19 am

Quoting peace train:



If people want to research a subject as a result of a discussion, then post the fruits of their research, I don't see anything negative in that. They are being generous by sharing. Of course not everyone will be interested so the choice is: click or pass.


+1000000
And many thanks specially to alameda and Ros for paying the effort of researchs and sharing them with us

129.       adonis
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:19 am

dönek olmak:

1. renegade.
2. capricious. fickle. flighty. rat. renegade. treacherous. turncoat. volatile.
3. untrustworthy, fickle, apostate, capricious, changeable, changeful, flukey, fluky, inconstant, lubricious, protean, variable, versatile, volatile. turnabout, turncoat, quitter, deserter, piker, rat, ratter, renegade. "fickle, flighty, capricious, rat; turncoat". fickle, untrustworthy, inconstant, changeable.
4. inconstant. fickle. renegade. seceder. secessionist. uncertain. unstable. variant. volatile

130.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:23 am

Quoting catwoman:

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?



WHY DONT WARN YOURSELF CATWOMAN>>> LOOK AT HOW YOU ACT HERE

131.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:24 am

Quoting adonis:

dönek olmak:

1. renegade.
2. capricious. fickle. flighty. rat. renegade. treacherous. turncoat. volatile.
3. untrustworthy, fickle, apostate, capricious, changeable, changeful, flukey, fluky, inconstant, lubricious, protean, variable, versatile, volatile. turnabout, turncoat, quitter, deserter, piker, rat, ratter, renegade. "fickle, flighty, capricious, rat; turncoat". fickle, untrustworthy, inconstant, changeable.
4. inconstant. fickle. renegade. seceder. secessionist. uncertain. unstable. variant. volatile



I hope his bird brain will reach a result...

132.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:40 am

Quoting geniuda:

Quoting thehandsom:

"Girleegirl,
you are a lady..we all love you..
ignore people who need a real treatment....


I am with you hansome..
And this for you GG



It is nice to see friends being protective of each other. No sarcasm intended, I am being sincere. OK, GG was treated a little harshly (eventually) by another member. However. if you look back on the thread that particular member's original intention was fairly honourable i.e. taking GG to task about her sarcasm towards Alameda. GG had herself been impolite and dicourteous to Alameda, for absolutely no reason.

Matters went too far today and there is no excuse for losing self control. We can all 'mix' it when we want to,but why do we whine when we get rough treatment because of it? We humans are a peculiar breed.

133.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:51 am

Quoting catwoman:

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?



Common practice of some users . . . wind 'em up then bleat delete.

Use your imagination . . . he would come back as Indiana Jones

134.       geniuda
1070 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:53 am

This is my opinion.. a "man" or "gentleman" however you want to call him, should never "insult""offend" etc a woman under any circumstances.
It really makes me sick when I see man having no respect for a woman at all..phisically or verbally.. (period)

135.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:53 am

Quoting peace train:

Quoting catwoman:

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?



Common practice of some users . . . wind 'em up then bleat delete.


Oh, right... now it's my fault that I "wind 'em up" lol

136.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:58 am

Quoting geniuda:

This is my opinion.. a "man" or "gentleman" however you want to call him, should never "insult""offend" etc a woman under any circumstances.
It really makes me sick when I see man having no respect for a woman at all..phisically or verbally..


of course, certain type of guys..... when they cannot defend themselves in any other way they resort to the lowest ways and denigrate the other person just because she's a woman. that's the male privilage that such sick insults work against women, but don't really work against men because such things in the real life are a danger for women, but not really for men. that's the sexual denigration of women I've been talking about.

137.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 03:05 am

Quoting peace train:


It is nice to see friends being protective of each other. No sarcasm intended, I am being sincere. OK, GG was treated a little harshly (eventually) by another member. However. if you look back on the thread that particular member's original intention was fairly honourable i.e. taking GG to task about her sarcasm towards Alameda. GG had herself been impolite and dicourteous to Alameda, for absolutely no reason.

Matters went too far today and there is no excuse for losing self control. We can all 'mix' it when we want to,but why do we whine when we get rough treatment because of it? We humans are a peculiar breed.



“That particular member“…which one are you speaking of? The one that thinks he should be Miss Manner’s or the one who asked me if I was horny? What honorable company you were keeping today!!!

Don’t pretend you are offering an olive branch of peace and then try to slap it back against me. I have been very clear in my criticism of alameda. You thinking it is 'absolutely no reason' is your opinion!

I am curious though….who exactly was whining?

138.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 03:14 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

Quoting catwoman:

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?



Common practice of some users . . . wind 'em up then bleat delete.


Oh, right... now it's my fault that I "wind 'em up" lol



"some users" implies more than one and I am speaking historically as well as in regard to today. People do wind others up then take extreme offence when users (male or female)answer back. Maybe not today but in the past people (who are known to have short fuses) have been wound up deliberately by users who know exactly who to target and which buttons to press. Really entertaining . . . not. No I'm not inluding you in that.

Twice today you have wielded the "dreaded" delete threat. Why in public? Everyone knows you have admin powers. I would have thought a PM was more appropriate and would garner more respect from the recipient. Respect seems to be what you crave.

A great deal has been aired about the PM facility recently. Can someone remind me again, what is the PM facility for? I can't quite work it out.

139.       adonis
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 03:15 am

Quoting catwoman:

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?



I have a full of stomach with these kinda threats. don't worry cat...

140.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 03:32 am

Quoting peace train:

Twice today you have wielded the "dreaded" delete threat. Why in public? Everyone knows you have admin powers. I would have thought a PM was more appropriate and would garner more respect from the recipient. Respect seems to be what you crave.


Canim, you are completely wrong about me and I don't remember confessing my cravings to you. lol You may disagree with what I say or do, but I don't see anything wrong with it. I warned Dr Treatment and adonis publicly - nothing wrong with that! They really need to learn how to disagree in a civilized way if they want to participate in conversations. I am yet to hear their arguments being stated in a reasonable way without any extra insults and denigration.

141.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 03:37 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting peace train:


It is nice to see friends being protective of each other. No sarcasm intended, I am being sincere. OK, GG was treated a little harshly (eventually) by another member. However. if you look back on the thread that particular member's original intention was fairly honourable i.e. taking GG to task about her sarcasm towards Alameda. GG had herself been impolite and dicourteous to Alameda, for absolutely no reason.

Matters went too far today and there is no excuse for losing self control. We can all 'mix' it when we want to,but why do we whine when we get rough treatment because of it? We humans are a peculiar breed.



“That particular member“…which one are you speaking of? The one that thinks he should be Miss Manner’s or the one who asked me if I was horny? What honorable company you were keeping today!!!

Don’t pretend you are offering an olive branch of peace and then try to slap it back against me. I have been very clear in my criticism of alameda. You thinking it is 'absolutely no reason' is your opinion!

I am curious though….who exactly was whining?



"Olive branch of peace" ?

I was acknowledging the kindness of handsom in speaking nicely of you. I'm not pretending anything. My reason for it was to show that you were not the only one in need of friendly defence, Alameda was in need of it too (from me) because of her treatment at your hands.


Yes you have been very sarcastic (critical was your description)towards Alameda in this thread and it was absolutely unsolicited.

Yes, this is my opinion. I put it forward to balance your attitude towards Alameda.

We all whine from time to time and it's often not justified. We only have ourselves to blame, some of us never seem to see that though.

I said nothing in the chatroom of any consequence, it's a public place, just like this, with anyone observing. I may be so dim I only just found out about the chat room today but I'm not so stupid as to tell all my business or anyone else's business there (I save that for pm s ).

I told everyone that was there what I thought, and said people should be careful when posting comments. Of course I fully expected you to make out it was something a little more clandestine. You're welcome to do that if it makes you feel better about yourself. Don't worry about me, I have very broad shoulders .

142.       adonis
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 03:43 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

Twice today you have wielded the "dreaded" delete threat. Why in public? Everyone knows you have admin powers. I would have thought a PM was more appropriate and would garner more respect from the recipient. Respect seems to be what you crave.


Canim, you are completely wrong about me and I don't remember confessing my cravings to you. lol You may disagree with what I say or do, but I don't see anything wrong with it. I warned Dr Treatment and adonis publicly - nothing wrong with that! They really need to learn how to disagree in a civilized way if they want to participate in conversations. I am yet to hear their arguments being stated in a reasonable way without any extra insults and denigration.



Insulting us at first and playing a role of victim at second fits you very well after taking a spectacular proof from peace train. are u an actress cat?

143.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 03:45 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

Twice today you have wielded the "dreaded" delete threat. Why in public? Everyone knows you have admin powers. I would have thought a PM was more appropriate and would garner more respect from the recipient. Respect seems to be what you crave.


Canim, you are completely wrong about me and I don't remember confessing my cravings to you. lol You may disagree with what I say or do, but I don't see anything wrong with it. I warned Dr Treatment and adonis publicly - nothing wrong with that! They really need to learn how to disagree in a civilized way if they want to participate in conversations. I am yet to hear their arguments being stated in a reasonable way without any extra insults and denigration.



It's not a problem as long as such practice is consistent. Has it been consistent? I think not. They are not the only ones on this site, who have, in your words, insulted and denigrated and been unreasonable in their arguments. And there have also been quite a few other members who needed to learn to disagree in a civilised way. As I said, consistency is they issue. IMO of course.

144.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 04:45 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

Quoting catwoman:

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?



Common practice of some users . . . wind 'em up then bleat delete.


Oh, right... now it's my fault that I "wind 'em up" lol



Catwoman, as the url for this site is turkishclass.com, you can't be upset when people from the culture named protest when they think their culture is being misrepresented or disparaged in some way. You can not appropriate the name of a people and not expect protest when you disparage their culture.

Certainly we have seen some very rude behavior from members here, who were not deleted....The fact of the matter is GG seems to follow my posts and make rude comments on whatever I say. I have ignored it..but you don't say anything about that behavior.

I've seen many young men come here and get upset by what they see. They don't have a great command of English, the idiom used in US English. They are also not at all used to such frontal attacks on what they see as the honor of their country.

If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.

145.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 04:55 am

Quoting geniuda:

This is my opinion.. a "man" or "gentleman" however you want to call him, should never "insult""offend" etc a woman under any circumstances.
It really makes me sick when I see man having no respect for a woman at all..phisically or verbally.. (period)



It goes both ways geniuda....a woman should not insult a man, nor should a man insult a woman.

Nobody has the right to demand respect, you earn it! You reap what you sow....people try talk to you in the language you speak.

146.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:08 am

Quoting peace train:


We all whine from time to time and it's often not justified. We only have ourselves to blame, some of us never seem to see that though.

I said nothing in the chatroom of any consequence, it's a public place, just like this, with anyone observing. I may be so dim I only just found out about the chat room today but I'm not so stupid as to tell all my business or anyone else's business there (I save that for pm s ).

I told everyone that was there what I thought, and said people should be careful when posting comments. Of course I fully expected you to make out it was something a little more clandestine. You're welcome to do that if it makes you feel better about yourself. Don't worry, I have very broad shoulders .


Show me where I have whined and while you are at it…show me where I said anything about what YOU said in chat.

147.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:13 am

Quoting alameda:

If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.


That is not true, Alameda. MrX is a traditional Turk, but he doesn't go around calling people menopausic, mini-skirt wearing bastards. Yes, free thinking people are always more comfortable here because they don't get insecure and easily insulted when someone questions their beliefs. It is not about who we are though, but about how we/they interact with each other.
You just feel bad for those traditional people who get easily wound up and who quickly resort to low insults maybe because you think that their whole lives are shattered when someone questions their beliefs. Sorry, civilized discourse is a must here and in a civilized world, those people you are defending better learn it.

148.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:15 am

Quoting alameda:


The fact of the matter is GG seems to follow my posts and make rude comments on whatever I say. I have ignored it..but you don't say anything about that behavior.


Let's do a bit of math here...you have posted 908 times. I have commented on 10 or so.....doesn't quite add up to me following your posts now does it!

149.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:15 am

Quoting alameda:

It goes both ways geniuda....a woman should not insult a man, nor should a man insult a woman.

Nobody has the right to demand respect, you earn it! You reap what you sow....people try talk to you in the language you speak.


In exactly the same way, those guys will also reap what they sow.

150.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:18 am

And another group insults women . . . women.
And those bullies Alameda mentioned? . . . women.
And the "kindergarten" (Cat's word)activists? . . . women.

Not such a good ad for women are we?

Being a woman does not give us the right to walk rough shod through life, saying whatever we like and x x x x the consequences.

To be accurate this is the Turkish Language Class but

TLC = Tender Loving Care (or Consideration)

Perhaps we (male and female) need to start spreading this a bit more.





151.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:26 am

Quoting peace train:

And another group insults women . . . women.
And those bullies Alameda mentioned? . . . women.
And the "kindergarten" (Cat's word)activists? . . . women.


Although I don't understand why you excluded handsom and ciko, this group you are so hatefully, stereotypically and simplistically defining also happens to be a group of open minded, strong, independent, feminist, successful women. And the guys you're defending also happen to be mysogynistic, nationalistic, even sometimes racist, simple minded guys. Why don't you practice what you preach dear?
In some people's opinions, being a woman, doesn't give you any right!

152.       KeithL
1455 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:27 am

Quoting alameda:


If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.



I'm afraid this is true...

153.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:40 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting peace train:


We all whine from time to time and it's often not justified. We only have ourselves to blame, some of us never seem to see that though.

I said nothing in the chatroom of any consequence, it's a public place, just like this, with anyone observing. I may be so dim I only just found out about the chat room today but I'm not so stupid as to tell all my business or anyone else's business there (I save that for pm s ).

I told everyone that was there what I thought, and said people should be careful when posting comments. Of course I fully expected you to make out it was something a little more clandestine. You're welcome to do that if it makes you feel better about yourself. Don't worry, I have very broad shoulders .


Show me where I have whined and while you are at it…show me where I said anything about what YOU said in chat.



Read the first paragraph of my post . . . it did not refer solely to you and I obviously include myself. But since you ask, I haven't time to "show" you, I'd be here all night! Many of us whine or complain or moan about each other . . . I'm moaning about you right now for instance.

No you didn't SAY anything about what I said in the chat room, but you inferred something about my character. . .

quote
"…which one are you speaking of? The one that thinks he should be Miss Manner’s or the one who asked me if I was horny? What honorable company you were keeping today!!! "

So I think I have the right to give an account of what my part in that was.

I've nothing more to say. Good evening/

154.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:43 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting alameda:


The fact of the matter is GG seems to follow my posts and make rude comments on whatever I say. I have ignored it..but you don't say anything about that behavior.


Let's do a bit of math here...you have posted 908 times. I have commented on 10 or so.....doesn't quite add up to me following your posts now does it!



You actually counted?

155.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:55 am

Quoting peace train:


You actually counted?


Uhhh no...that is why I said 10 or so...what..did you run off and count?

156.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 06:01 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.


That is not true, Alameda. MrX is a traditional Turk, but he doesn't go around calling people menopausic, mini-skirt wearing bastards. Yes, free thinking people are always more comfortable here because they don't get insecure and easily insulted when someone questions their beliefs. It is not about who we are though, but about how we/they interact with each other.
You just feel bad for those traditional people who get easily wound up and who quickly resort to low insults maybe because you think that their whole lives are shattered when someone questions their beliefs. Sorry, civilized discourse is a must here and in a civilized world, those people you are defending better learn it.




You are right Catwoman MrX doesn't insult people, yet he has still had to deal with negative comments from people. He kept his cool and others (male and female) could learn from him.

I could name some women here who get "insecure" and feel "insulted" easily and some have been quite insulting albeit in a more subtle way than the blunt style of a few Turkish men.

There have been a few women guilty of uncivilised discourse Catwoman. You asked me a week or so ago to stop the 'kindergarten' stuff (I had already posted my intention to stop). I'm assuming you told the other participants the same thing and also don't forget you have had your moments too.

Me thinks you are after my crown as the Queen of Sanctimony.

157.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 06:08 am

Quoting peace train:

Me thinks you are after my crown as the Queen of Sanctimony.


Look, nobody is a saint and everybody tries their best. You've had your moments too dear! Don't try to justify some people's behavior because those who accuse them aren't spotless clean either. Yes, in almost every conflict both sides carry some guilt. You seem to completely overlook one side here though..

No, the crown is yours, I'll find my own! lol

158.       Leelu
1746 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 06:17 am

wow!!! I missed a lot on this thread .. I has to go back and start reading it from the beginning .. lol lol lol ..

159.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 06:33 am

Quoting Leelu:

wow!!! I missed a lot on this thread .. I has to go back and start reading it from the beginning .. lol lol lol ..


And just where have you been exactly young lady? You better have a really good excuse for not being here!

160.       Leelu
1746 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 07:13 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting Leelu:

wow!!! I missed a lot on this thread .. I has to go back and start reading it from the beginning .. lol lol lol ..


And just where have you been exactly young lady? You better have a really good excuse for not being here!


errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm .. the cat ate my homework?

161.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 07:37 am

Quoting alameda:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

Quoting catwoman:

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?



Common practice of some users . . . wind 'em up then bleat delete.


Oh, right... now it's my fault that I "wind 'em up" lol



Catwoman, as the url for this site is turkishclass.com, you can't be upset when people from the culture named protest when they think their culture is being misrepresented or disparaged in some way. You can not appropriate the name of a people and not expect protest when you disparage their culture.

Certainly we have seen some very rude behavior from members here, who were not deleted....The fact of the matter is GG seems to follow my posts and make rude comments on whatever I say. I have ignored it..but you don't say anything about that behavior.

I've seen many young men come here and get upset by what they see. They don't have a great command of English, the idiom used in US English. They are also not at all used to such frontal attacks on what they see as the honor of their country.

If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.



How hyprocritical are you Alameda.. Seriously, how many posts of mine have you done this too. Your calling the kettle black if you feel GG follows your posts. And Peacetrain you make me so sick..that you believe that your behavior is above the rest of the members here. I have seen your posts and to be quite frank, I thought you were really loosing it a few weeks ago, with all of this bickering with being deleted and public display of aggression with Aenigma. It was quite a show you led. So, you have your opinions which you certainly have a right too. But in the future some of your arguments would hold more validity, if you also choose to lead by example. Which I think you fail to do at times.

162.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 08:16 am

Quoting Leelu:


errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm .. the cat ate my homework?


Catwoman ate your homework??

163.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 08:45 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting Leelu:


errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm .. the cat ate my homework?


Catwoman ate your homework??


I did not eat her homework!!! I only eat whiskas!

164.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:37 am

Sorry for cutting into that interesting discussion you were having here about who is better than others. I'd like to go back to the original post - the poem. I have no idea how people can judge it as sexist. If you take into consideration the fact that this is a man having erotic thoughts of a woman then what's wrong with that? Can't men desire women? Would it be better if he claimed to love another guy? Or a fruit? He didn't mean one particular woman here, did he? He wasn't praising the love of his life. He was having sexual fantasies. Come on feminists, if you claim that, having dirty thoughts, it is the male brain that stimulates you, you're lying

Poetry, especially the good one, gives right to express oneself. To amaze, to name what others cannot. Labelling it as "sexist" would mean censoring erotic poetry, and that's a violation of poets' rights. Besides, if you read erotic female poetry, the basis is the same. They write about bodies. Not brains.

165.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:41 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

Sorry for cutting into that interesting discussion you were having here about who is better than others. I'd like to go back to the original post - the poem. I have no idea how people can judge it as sexist. If you take into consideration the fact that this is a man having erotic thoughts of a woman then what's wrong with that? Can't men desire women? Would it be better if he claimed to love another guy? Or a fruit? He didn't mean one particular woman here, did he? He wasn't praising the love of his life. He was having sexual fantasies. Come on feminists, if you claim that, having dirty thoughts, it is the male brain that stimulates you, you're lying

Poetry, especially the good one, gives right to express oneself. To amaze, to name what others cannot. Labelling it as "sexist" would mean censoring erotic poetry, and that's a violation of poets' rights. Besides, if you read erotic female poetry, the basis is the same. They write about bodies. Not brains.



I specifically referred to these verses:

"A cicada on my ear, love
-Men get dressed to be dressed
and women get dressed to be naked-
Therefore, because of their desire,
I see all women stark-naked "

I don't care if he's a poet or a homeless or a lawyer. He makes statements that, although maybe harmless, are expressions of men's attitudes towards women that in the general society make up sexism and objectification of women.

166.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:45 am

To me it only manifests that women are appealing for him, in contrast to men. I see nothing wrong in openly admitting one's sexual preferences. If I said I'm not attracted to women and that I prefer men, would it make me a sexist?

167.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:50 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

To me it only manifests that women are appealing for him, in contrast to men. I see nothing wrong in openly admitting one's sexual preferences. If I said I'm not attracted to women and that I prefer men, would it make me a sexist?


He doesn't say "I'm attracted to women", he says "to me they are all naked"... :-S Yeah, it's an expression of his desires, it may be something completely normal in some circumstances, and I said that this type of attitude among man in daily life is what makes our societies ones that objectify women.

Also, please don't refer to me as "you, feminists", I'm not representing anybody here other than myself.

168.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:57 am

Quoting catwoman:


He doesn't say "I'm attracted to women", he says "to me they are all naked"...



It's poetry sweetie, you can't get too literal there. If you do it'll be what we have in private poetry part here. Nice and I'm sure much appreciated in the authors' families. Still devoid of any critical value.


Quote:

:-S Yeah, it's an expression of his desires, it may be something completely normal in some circumstances, and I said that this type of attitude among man in daily life is what makes our societies ones that objectify women.



From my experience, guys who objectify women don't read poetry They go for more ehm...visual means.

Quote:

Also, please don't refer to me as "you, feminists", I'm not representing anybody here other than myself.



Did I call you "you, feminists?" Sorry, I am a feminist myself so it should have been "some feminists." Yeah, I believe some are too radical - like those who wanted to put a bra on the Mermaid in Copenhagen...

169.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 11:01 am

Ok canim, you have your point and I have mine I see what you mean, but I am sensitive to male objectification of women. On top of that, I could never interpret poetry correctly! lol

170.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 11:11 am

Quoting catwoman:

Ok canim, you have your point and I have mine I see what you mean, but I am sensitive to male objectification of women. On top of that, I could never interpret poetry correctly! lol



point taken

171.       CANLI
5084 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 12:25 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting alameda:


If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.



I'm afraid this is true...


+1000
You ask them to be open minded and to accept other people point of views and traditions,or way of life,but you simply dont accept theirs !

172.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:25 pm

Canli, with all due respect. None of us - atheists feels offended if believers question his/her choice. It is exactly the opposite with you. If we ask questions about your religion and draw conclusions you don't like, you start insulting us (I don't mean "you" personally). Some members seem to have the approach saying - either admire us or get lost. This is not very fair either, is it?

I do agree some members calling themselves "free thinkers" were pushing it and acted improperly. But it is hard to stay indifferent to sites like this:

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?name=News&file=article&sid=2378

Let me quote just a tiny fragment:

"A girl was brutally murdered by her father on suspicion of her character Monday. The father chopped the body and interred it without a proper burial ceremony.

Her alleged paramour escaped the area to save his life. The accused Pandi Jatoi used an axe to cut the body into pieces. The girl cried and tried to prove her innocence by holding the Holy Quran. The father was wanted to kill her paramour but the youth managed to flee.

On being contacted by The Post, the police expressed their ignorance about the incident. However, some sources in the police confirmed that their colleagues were deliberately concealing the matter."

When we express our disgust with a religion that allows such things to happen, you take it as an attack on Islam. I have met many Muslim in my life, some of my best friends are Muslim, and they openly admit they abhor such incidents and believe there's plenty of things to change in Islam. Here at this site, the loudest-speaking Muslims instantly tell us not to dig out the dirt in a backyard that doesn't belong to us or immediately start to talk about Inquisition. They fail to see the difference between past and now. It's easy to call us ignorants who have no right to speak about subjects we don't know. But what is there to know? A woman (more than one) died, and the religion you say to be yours allows to account for it. Don't demand that we respect a religion allowing people to kill others

It's not that we have a problem with Muslims - we don't. Personally, I don't care if you cover your head, face, toes or neck. I don't care if you pray sitting, kneeling, lying or walking. Why should I? It is your free will and choice. But I care if you tell me honour killings are good and if you justify women's submissiveness saying it's their character. It is not. It is the upbringing that limits them.

Regards

173.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:44 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

And another group insults women . . . women.
And those bullies Alameda mentioned? . . . women.
And the "kindergarten" (Cat's word)activists? . . . women.


Although I don't understand why you excluded handsom and ciko, this group you are so hatefully, stereotypically and simplistically defining also happens to be a group of open minded, strong, independent, feminist, successful women. And the guys you're defending also happen to be mysogynistic, nationalistic, even sometimes racist, simple minded guys. Why don't you practice what you preach dear?
In some people's opinions, being a woman, doesn't give you any right!



Oh dear, you are putting words into my mouth Cat.

I am not defending the guys for their actions. If you read my posts you would know I have given them my opinion personally. Some of the things they said were uncalled for.

Because I think men are not the only guilty parties on this site does not mean I am anti feminism.

I didn't mention ANY names.

Hateful? Sorry you've lost me.

Unfortunately some women on this site DO stereotype themselves.

quote
" a group of open minded, strong, independent, feminist, successful women."

Do they have to be feminist to be the rest of the above?
Does it mean they never indulge in "kindergarten" behaviour?

I dispute they are all open minded. Depends what they wish to open their minds to.
Having all the qualities you mention does not give a woman carte blanche.

I would say there are varying degrees of feminism but you don't seem to be able to accept this Cat. You seem intolerant of any view on feminism that does not fit exactly the pattern you have cut for it. Points of view are so much more colourful than the black or white views you demand from people Cat. I would say your views on feminism are rather more simplistic than mine.

Did you ever notice there is neither black nor white in a rainbow?

What happened on this thread:

A bored (by his own admission on another thread) member decided to post a poem.
Another male member wondered about his choice.
A few members discussed the technical and creative aspects of the poem.
The poem provoked a feminist.
The poem provoked discussion about its suitability for this site.
A female member was extremely sarcastic to and critical of (both her choice of words) another female member, for absolutely no reason.
A male member decided to reproach a female member for her unwarranted unkindness towards another female.
A heated discussion ensued.
A female member was spoken to in an undesirable and inappropriate way by a male.
Discussions on feminism ensue.
Original male member is no longer bored with his day.

Women have been around long enough to learn how to deal with name calling and insults, from men, in a virtual environment such as this without using the feminist card every time. They can be strong, independent and successful (your words)in the way they deal with such behaviour, without jumping on the feminist soap box. Some have already proved they are more subtle than men in their approach to offending women, why don't they turn this subtlty on the offensive men?

You don't seem to have grasped the idea that once a person uses disgusting language in an argument, that argument is lost for them. Their words are there for everyone to read, they dig their own graves. You have no need to shriek foul play in the name of feminism.

Jumping on the soap box and using the feminist card at the slightest wiff of an ignorant insult merely increases the stereotypical notion of what a feminist is.

Sometimes "feminists" on this site shoot themselves in the foot.

Being "strong" (your word) doesn't mean having rigidity of thought.

You can make more of this if you like Catwoman. I am clear in my own mind that I am not a feminist hater, I simply cringe sometimes when I read some of the "feminist" rhetoric (or rant ?)because it doesn't do anything positive for the cause of women.

Where do you think some men on this site get the notion there is a group of menopausal, ageing, stay at home women on this site?

Thanks for the discussion . . . always a pleasure, never a chore


p.s. Is there such a thing as a female mysogynist?

174.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:45 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

Twice today you have wielded the "dreaded" delete threat. Why in public? Everyone knows you have admin powers. I would have thought a PM was more appropriate and would garner more respect from the recipient. Respect seems to be what you crave.


Canim, you are completely wrong about me and I don't remember confessing my cravings to you. lol You may disagree with what I say or do, but I don't see anything wrong with it. I warned Dr Treatment and adonis publicly - nothing wrong with that! They really need to learn how to disagree in a civilized way if they want to participate in conversations. I am yet to hear their arguments being stated in a reasonable way without any extra insults and denigration.



Catwoman as I wrote here Last night, First Somebody should warn you... Your fault is bigger than us... Learn how to use admin power...

175.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:49 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

Me thinks you are after my crown as the Queen of Sanctimony.


Look, nobody is a saint and everybody tries their best. You've had your moments too dear! Don't try to justify some people's behavior because those who accuse them aren't spotless clean either. Yes, in almost every conflict both sides carry some guilt. You seem to completely overlook one side here though..

No, the crown is yours, I'll find my own! lol



I already included myself in everything I said.

I haven't overlooked any side, I'm trying to give some balance to the discussion.

I have an idea about that crown . . .

176.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:51 pm

Quoting Leelu:

wow!!! I missed a lot on this thread .. I has to go back and start reading it from the beginning .. lol lol lol ..



Enjoy!!!

177.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:56 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting alameda:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

Quoting catwoman:

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?



Common practice of some users . . . wind 'em up then bleat delete.


Oh, right... now it's my fault that I "wind 'em up" lol



Catwoman, as the url for this site is turkishclass.com, you can't be upset when people from the culture named protest when they think their culture is being misrepresented or disparaged in some way. You can not appropriate the name of a people and not expect protest when you disparage their culture.

Certainly we have seen some very rude behavior from members here, who were not deleted....The fact of the matter is GG seems to follow my posts and make rude comments on whatever I say. I have ignored it..but you don't say anything about that behavior.

I've seen many young men come here and get upset by what they see. They don't have a great command of English, the idiom used in US English. They are also not at all used to such frontal attacks on what they see as the honor of their country.

If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.



How hyprocritical are you Alameda.. Seriously, how many posts of mine have you done this too. Your calling the kettle black if you feel GG follows your posts. And Peacetrain you make me so sick..that you believe that your behavior is above the rest of the members here. I have seen your posts and to be quite frank, I thought you were really loosing it a few weeks ago, with all of this bickering with being deleted and public display of aggression with Aenigma. It was quite a show you led. So, you have your opinions which you certainly have a right too. But in the future some of your arguments would hold more validity, if you also choose to lead by example. Which I think you fail to do at times.



Ho Hum . . . read my words. I included myself in the mix. I am no saint. That is one of my points, some people think they can say whatever they like and not be criticised or made fun of for it. That's not a very realistic or fair attitude. I'm not preaching, I'm giving my opinion. Thanks for yours.

178.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:07 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting alameda:


If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.



I'm afraid this is true...



Thank you Keith.

179.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:11 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Sorry for cutting into that interesting discussion you were having here about who is better than others. I'd like to go back to the original post - the poem. I have no idea how people can judge it as sexist. If you take into consideration the fact that this is a man having erotic thoughts of a woman then what's wrong with that? Can't men desire women? Would it be better if he claimed to love another guy? Or a fruit? He didn't mean one particular woman here, did he? He wasn't praising the love of his life. He was having sexual fantasies. Come on feminists, if you claim that, having dirty thoughts, it is the male brain that stimulates you, you're lying

Poetry, especially the good one, gives right to express oneself. To amaze, to name what others cannot. Labelling it as "sexist" would mean censoring erotic poetry, and that's a violation of poets' rights. Besides, if you read erotic female poetry, the basis is the same. They write about bodies. Not brains.



I always enjoy reading your posts Daydreamer. They are always well thought out.

180.       CANLI
5084 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:33 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Canli, with all due respect. None of us - atheists feels offended if believers question his/her choice. It is exactly the opposite with you. If we ask questions about your religion and draw conclusions you don't like, you start insulting us (I don't mean "you" personally). Some members seem to have the approach saying - either admire us or get lost. This is not very fair either, is it?

I do agree some members calling themselves "free thinkers" were pushing it and acted improperly. But it is hard to stay indifferent to sites like this:

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?name=News&file=article&sid=2378

Let me quote just a tiny fragment:

"A girl was brutally murdered by her father on suspicion of her character Monday. The father chopped the body and interred it without a proper burial ceremony.

Her alleged paramour escaped the area to save his life. The accused Pandi Jatoi used an axe to cut the body into pieces. The girl cried and tried to prove her innocence by holding the Holy Quran. The father was wanted to kill her paramour but the youth managed to flee.

On being contacted by The Post, the police expressed their ignorance about the incident. However, some sources in the police confirmed that their colleagues were deliberately concealing the matter."

When we express our disgust with a religion that allows such things to happen, you take it as an attack on Islam. I have met many Muslim in my life, some of my best friends are Muslim, and they openly admit they abhor such incidents and believe there's plenty of things to change in Islam. Here at this site, the loudest-speaking Muslims instantly tell us not to dig out the dirt in a backyard that doesn't belong to us or immediately start to talk about Inquisition. They fail to see the difference between past and now. It's easy to call us ignorants who have no right to speak about subjects we don't know. But what is there to know? A woman (more than one) died, and the religion you say to be yours allows to account for it. Don't demand that we respect a religion allowing people to kill others

It's not that we have a problem with Muslims - we don't. Personally, I don't care if you cover your head, face, toes or neck. I don't care if you pray sitting, kneeling, lying or walking. Why should I? It is your free will and choice. But I care if you tell me honour killings are good and if you justify women's submissiveness saying it's their character. It is not. It is the upbringing that limits them.

Regards


Daydreamer,
İ wont start a discussion about religion here,nor about İslam,because actually i had enough about it here
but of course yes,i excepect you 'i dont mean you personally ' to respect my religion even if you dont agree with it
As we respect other religions too which of course we dont agree with them also,but it called mutual respect,and it should be in normal relation between people
Not just deep relations,but it should be among human
Respect me,pespect my believes,respect my ideas,my opinions, even if you dont agree with them.
As i also should do same with you..
And we both have the right to point out our disagreement too

We dont feel offended when you QUESTİON our believes too,but there is much difference between QUESTİONİNG our believes and expressing your DİSGUST of our religion !

To express you DİSGUST with my religion ,im afraid that mean you attack it yes..
Disgust is a big word,and it doesnt come with respect...so dont expect me 'not just me ,i mean Muslims' to feel its ok to accept people not respecting our religion.
İslam doesnt allow people to kill others as you indicate.
İf you want to indecate such thing,read about it,understand it,search it then make such statment.
Then we have something to talk about if you want,and if you dont,its ok too.
İn Judaism its forbidden to kill ONLY a Jewish,but its OK to kill ANY human being because to Judaism they are dogs not humans !
Do you want me to go through other religions too ?!
You want to point out how do women treated in other religions,do you want to point out how do women takes their husbands names after marriage and lose theirs ?
Do you want to talk about how women be part of the heritage after her husband's death in some religions ?
No,you just see İslam that is all,how how BAD is it,yes ?!

İ NEVER saw any complaining about this anywhere,not in TC nor even in the Media too.
But about İSLAM...ohhh boyyy what such a barbaric religion,you can read about it EVERYWHERE
When a MUSLİM man killes his daughter,then it is İSLAM fault and you feel DİSGUST of such religion, yes ?!
And you say you dont have problem with İslam or Muslims ?!
YES, we ALL can see that !
''again i dont mean you personally''

Actually,i dont have to defend my religion in anyway,its my religion,and im ok with it,and wont change it too,i dont and didnt mind debating about it tho with respect to what i believe and offering same respect to the believes of the others.

İ was refering in my statment to TC here,and how they treat some Turks,and its true im afraid,i saw it,others saw it too.
They attack their believes 'İslam' their traditions,and make jokes about it and complain if Turks didnt take it well !
Some Turk dont have a good grip of English so they cant really reply it as well as they want,and at same time they feel offended so they just leave.
And the ones who have good command of English,and they reply it,they face a union against them,either with sercasm,or with attack,so also eventually they had enough and leave too !
Do you see many Turks here much ?

Now, let me ask you something,
You are complaining about people insult atheists here at TC ?
My dear,review threads and posts,and tell me,you find any insult or attack to ANY religion or believes here at TC except to İslam ?!
Review and be fair about it.
Here at TC most Turks are Muslims,Easterns are Muslims,and most Westerns are Christians,and there are some atheists too.
You would find the only attack,insult is to İslam and no others,and at same time,Muslims dont reply by attacking the other religions back,did we ?
Point to me where did we insult Christianity or Judaism or atheistic ?
Do you want me to point out how many threads have insulted İslam ?!
No need,they are many,and already locked too,yes ?!

İ guess TC is just part of the world who has no problem with İslam or Muslims,yes ?!

181.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:52 pm

Peace Train,
You really are a goody-goody !!
I did not believe Aenigma first when she called you sanctimonious, but she was absolutely right (as usual )
Look at your writing!!
you still dont get it!!
How can you put THAT vulgarity in these words 'A female member was spoken to in an undesirable and inappropriate way by a male.' and try to upease it?
You are trying to soften rawness of that male member's action, because you were cross with the person who was subjected to it!!
For me, this is like walking on the street and seeing a rude, stupid, cave man touching a woman's bum and smirking..
And, when the woman complains about it he gets rough and starts swearing and keep touching the woman!!
I am sorry..As a Turkish man I will nail that guy, smack him on the face and show him how he deserves to be handled.

And as a Turkish man, I will never hesitate for a second to belittle and humiliate that type of man.
And I will never think, even a split second, he is from my country, he has his traditions blah blah blah. Because I am well aware of my country's traditions, and that type of behavior does not belong to those traditions I know..

And you are saying Where do you think some men on this site get the notion there is a group of menopausal, ageing, stay at home women on this site?..I am lost for words here ....
phew!!!!!!!!!!!

Just as an info, I did not post that poem because I got bored.. I spent some times with the translation and wanted to share..that is all!!
I tried translate 3 poems and, to be honest, i never expected this one would be this 'exciting'!!!

182.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 03:35 pm

Wow! So many things to comment on here that I hardly can pick just where to start. I'll write comments as time allows.

One thing I'd like to point out that has been totally ignored is the reaction to the comment, "aging menopausal women". Well my dears if sex is natural, so is aging and menopause. It's a natural function. How do you find that an insult? Age and menopause happens, get over it. If you are truly "feminist", it seems to me you should celebrate ALL stages of a women's life.

183.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 03:49 pm

Quoting alameda:

Wow! So many things to comment on here that I hardly can pick just where to start. I'll write comments as time allows.

One thing I'd like to point out that has been totally ignored is the reaction to the comment, "aging menopausal women". Well my dears if sex is natural, so is aging and menopause. It's a natural function. How do you find that an insult? Age and menopause happens, get over it. If you are truly "feminist", it seems to me you should celebrate ALL stages of a women's life.



Am I missing something? I don't think any females here pointed this out as an insult. I actually look forward to the day I don't have to buy tampons.

184.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 03:58 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

.............It's not that we have a problem with Muslims - we don't. Personally, I don't care if you cover your head, face, toes or neck. I don't care if you pray sitting, kneeling, lying or walking. Why should I? It is your free will and choice. But I care if you tell me honour killings are good and if you justify women's submissiveness saying it's their character. It is not. It is the upbringing that limits them.

Regards



Daydreamer,

Islam does not allow such murders as you site. Killing of women has gone on and goes on in all cultures, countries sometimes with no excuse, sometimes using an excuse.

Femicide happens all over the world and has been reported to be widespread in places like China, India to reduce female children.

Femicide is still going on right in Europe and the USA with mass murders picking women to kill.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/15442083/detail.html

LEON COUNTY, Fla. -- Florida authorities said the man who admitted to murdering 24-year-old Georgia hiker Meredith Emerson has now been indicted in the death of Cheryl Hodges Dunlap.

Hilton was indicted on first degree murder, kidnapping and two counts of theft late Thursday afternoon.

Dunlap disappeared December 1, 2007 and her body was found December 19, 2007 in the Apalachicola National Forest, southwest of Tallahassee. Sheriff's Major Mike Wood said in January that authorities confirmed that Gary Michael Hilton was in the area at the time of Dunlap's disappearance

http://www.libertadlatina.org/Crisis_Lat_Mexico_Juarez_Femicide.htm

http://forerunner.com/forerunner/X0393_Murder__Pornography_.html

Those are just a few now, I can and will site more later, if you like.

I suggest you take comments and questions regarding Islam to a site that is dedicated to questions and conversations about Islam.

Here are two:

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/bb/index.php
http://www.altmuslim.com/a

You can ask all the questions you want and discuss issues as much as you like. Here things get deleted too soon to have a conversation regarding these issues.

185.       adonis
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 04:13 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Adonis!!
You and your male hooker friend, know only how to swear..
I am hoping that admin or one of the moderators will be here soon and delete your post and THIS ONE
And you hope it happens quickly too..
changing this part==
you will hurt.
You trust me!!

ps..can you write it by yourself? why do you need to get help? lol



are you man enough to fight with me? go on belly dancer go on.

ps: i wrote all of my entries myself, but if u need help, just come here, escape from Soho.

186.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 04:23 pm

Adonis, dont worry mate,,,, the twats way under my kasimpasa.....

187.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 04:24 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting alameda:

Wow! So many things to comment on here that I hardly can pick just where to start. I'll write comments as time allows.

One thing I'd like to point out that has been totally ignored is the reaction to the comment, "aging menopausal women". Well my dears if sex is natural, so is aging and menopause. It's a natural function. How do you find that an insult? Age and menopause happens, get over it. If you are truly "feminist", it seems to me you should celebrate ALL stages of a women's life.



Am I missing something? I don't think any females here pointed this out as an insult. I actually look forward to the day I don't have to buy tampons.



Let me count the times you have shown your upset at being called middle aged....you called me an old bag (to me that indicates an age related bias/insult) ...although I have no idea how you have any idea of my age or gender seeing as I have not posted any information in that matter....remember when AlphaF called you that....I really don't have the time go look it up now.

Adonis called some women here menopausal aging women...and they got very upset and took it as an insult, that is what some of the current storm is about.

188.       DR TREATMENT
0 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 04:28 pm

Quoting DR TREATMENT:

Quoting alameda:

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting alameda:

Wow! So many things to comment on here that I hardly can pick just where to start. I'll write comments as time allows.

One thing I'd like to point out that has been totally ignored is the reaction to the comment, "aging menopausal women". Well my dears if sex is natural, so is aging and menopause. It's a natural function. How do you find that an insult? Age and menopause happens, get over it. If you are truly "feminist", it seems to me you should celebrate ALL stages of a women's life.



Am I missing something? I don't think any females here pointed this out as an insult. I actually look forward to the day I don't have to buy tampons.




Ahh alameda... I wish you could catch the first point... We back you... you left us alone

Let me count the times you have shown your upset at being called middle aged....you called me an old bag (to me that indicates an age related bias/insult) ...although I have no idea how you have any idea of my age or gender seeing as I have not posted any information in that matter....remember when AlphaF called you that....I really don't have the time go look it up now.

Adonis called some women here menopausal aging women...and they got very upset and took it as an insult, that is what some of the current storm is about.



Ahh alameda... I wish you could catch the first point... We back you... you left us alone

189.       Leelu
1746 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:30 pm

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting Leelu:


errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm .. the cat ate my homework?


Catwoman ate your homework??


errrrrrrrrrrm it may have had something to do with dropping tuna all over it

190.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:42 pm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carracci_-_Jupiter_et_Junon.jpeg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Banquet.jpg

191.       Leelu
1746 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:48 pm

Quoting DR TREATMENT:

Adonis, dont worry mate,,,, the twats way under my kasimpasa.....

nice command of the english language.

192.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 06:48 pm

Canli, Alameda,

You missed my point, perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. Honour killings are associated with Islam - I wasn't debating whether or not Islam (the real one or whatever you call it) allows it. It goes without saying however, that it is Islam that is used as an excuse for it. And it's not the bad westerners who do it, but people who call themselves Muslim. I see your point that it is impossible to judge the whole community for the actions of some people, but it's not our fault that stories like that are associated with Islam mainly. There must be something wrong with it if it's not Christianity, not Buddhism but Islam that is liable. Terrorists attacks and jihad are what the world learnt about Islam. Pity as it is, whose responsibility is it to clear Islam's name? Westerners?

And again, like it's always been we heard how west oppresses women. No, it doesn't. Women don't have to take their husband's surnames, sometimes men take their wives surname. Jews? Why aren't there fierce bloody-eyed hoards of Jews in the streets of Paris demolishing cars and wounding people? Why aren't Jews organising terrorist attacks in the USA or London? True, all religions are focused around male dominance, however, in civilised countries religions come secondary to the Law. No religious oppression is justified or forgiven. Of course there are battered women. But they aren't battered because of religion but because some men are scums. The difference is that if a woman is strong enough to report it, she will be helped and the oppressor imprisoned. Nobody will tell her that it is the way things should be and it's her fate to put up with it. The same for mass murderers (they do kill men as well - I haven't heard about honour killings of an unfaithful guy) - they act against society. When they are caught, usually they end up with capital punishment. I have never heard of honour killings perpetrators being put to death for this reason. So, all in all, there are some differences you have to agree on.

As for what Canli said about atheism not being attacked, ridiculed or laughed at - well, that proves it's a pretty neat ideology, doesn't it? The reason for Islam being attacked is that there must be a reason to it. And it's not only this forum's tendency. All forums that I read have threads about Islam, and there is nobody but some Muslims who see no faults in it.

One more thing, nobody deserves respect for just breathing. I don't respect everyone and I don't expect everyone to respect me. On the contrary, if everybody respected everyone, people would be free to kill others and demand respect. If I see something that I think is unjust, illegal or threatening, I don't respect it. If there is a religion that hurts some of its believers - there's no way I respect it.

193.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 06:56 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting Daydreamer:

Canli, with all due respect. None of us - atheists feels offended if believers question his/her choice. It is exactly the opposite with you. If we ask questions about your religion and draw conclusions you don't like, you start insulting us (I don't mean "you" personally). Some members seem to have the approach saying - either admire us or get lost. This is not very fair either, is it?

I do agree some members calling themselves "free thinkers" were pushing it and acted improperly. But it is hard to stay indifferent to sites like this:

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?name=News&file=article&sid=2378

Let me quote just a tiny fragment:

"A girl was brutally murdered by her father on suspicion of her character Monday. The father chopped the body and interred it without a proper burial ceremony.

Her alleged paramour escaped the area to save his life. The accused Pandi Jatoi used an axe to cut the body into pieces. The girl cried and tried to prove her innocence by holding the Holy Quran. The father was wanted to kill her paramour but the youth managed to flee.

On being contacted by The Post, the police expressed their ignorance about the incident. However, some sources in the police confirmed that their colleagues were deliberately concealing the matter."

When we express our disgust with a religion that allows such things to happen, you take it as an attack on Islam. I have met many Muslim in my life, some of my best friends are Muslim, and they openly admit they abhor such incidents and believe there's plenty of things to change in Islam. Here at this site, the loudest-speaking Muslims instantly tell us not to dig out the dirt in a backyard that doesn't belong to us or immediately start to talk about Inquisition. They fail to see the difference between past and now. It's easy to call us ignorants who have no right to speak about subjects we don't know. But what is there to know? A woman (more than one) died, and the religion you say to be yours allows to account for it. Don't demand that we respect a religion allowing people to kill others

It's not that we have a problem with Muslims - we don't. Personally, I don't care if you cover your head, face, toes or neck. I don't care if you pray sitting, kneeling, lying or walking. Why should I? It is your free will and choice. But I care if you tell me honour killings are good and if you justify women's submissiveness saying it's their character. It is not. It is the upbringing that limits them.

Regards


Daydreamer,
İ wont start a discussion about religion here,nor about İslam,because actually i had enough about it here
but of course yes,i excepect you 'i dont mean you personally ' to respect my religion even if you dont agree with it
As we respect other religions too which of course we dont agree with them also,but it called mutual respect,and it should be in normal relation between people
Not just deep relations,but it should be among human
Respect me,pespect my believes,respect my ideas,my opinions, even if you dont agree with them.
As i also should do same with you..
And we both have the right to point out our disagreement too

We dont feel offended when you QUESTİON our believes too,but there is much difference between QUESTİONİNG our believes and expressing your DİSGUST of our religion !

To express you DİSGUST with my religion ,im afraid that mean you attack it yes..
Disgust is a big word,and it doesnt come with respect...so dont expect me 'not just me ,i mean Muslims' to feel its ok to accept people not respecting our religion.
İslam doesnt allow people to kill others as you indicate.
İf you want to indecate such thing,read about it,understand it,search it then make such statment.
Then we have something to talk about if you want,and if you dont,its ok too.
İn Judaism its forbidden to kill ONLY a Jewish,but its OK to kill ANY human being because to Judaism they are dogs not humans !
Do you want me to go through other religions too ?!
You want to point out how do women treated in other religions,do you want to point out how do women takes their husbands names after marriage and lose theirs ?
Do you want to talk about how women be part of the heritage after her husband's death in some religions ?
No,you just see İslam that is all,how how BAD is it,yes ?!

İ NEVER saw any complaining about this anywhere,not in TC nor even in the Media too.
But about İSLAM...ohhh boyyy what such a barbaric religion,you can read about it EVERYWHERE
When a MUSLİM man killes his daughter,then it is İSLAM fault and you feel DİSGUST of such religion, yes ?!
And you say you dont have problem with İslam or Muslims ?!
YES, we ALL can see that !
''again i dont mean you personally''

Actually,i dont have to defend my religion in anyway,its my religion,and im ok with it,and wont change it too,i dont and didnt mind debating about it tho with respect to what i believe and offering same respect to the believes of the others.

İ was refering in my statment to TC here,and how they treat some Turks,and its true im afraid,i saw it,others saw it too.
They attack their believes 'İslam' their traditions,and make jokes about it and complain if Turks didnt take it well !
Some Turk dont have a good grip of English so they cant really reply it as well as they want,and at same time they feel offended so they just leave.
And the ones who have good command of English,and they reply it,they face a union against them,either with sercasm,or with attack,so also eventually they had enough and leave too !
Do you see many Turks here much ?

Now, let me ask you something,
You are complaining about people insult atheists here at TC ?
My dear,review threads and posts,and tell me,you find any insult or attack to ANY religion or believes here at TC except to İslam ?!
Review and be fair about it.
Here at TC most Turks are Muslims,Easterns are Muslims,and most Westerns are Christians,and there are some atheists too.
You would find the only attack,insult is to İslam and no others,and at same time,Muslims dont reply by attacking the other religions back,did we ?
Point to me where did we insult Christianity or Judaism or atheistic ?
Do you want me to point out how many threads have insulted İslam ?!
No need,they are many,and already locked too,yes ?!

İ guess TC is just part of the world who has no problem with İslam or Muslims,yes ?!



Very thoughtfully put Canli. Somehow I don't think it will be the last time you will say this as we appear to be on a roundabout.

194.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 06:56 pm

Daydreamer, exactly my thoughts!

+1!

195.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 07:33 pm

As this forum does not allow religious discussions,(or they aren't supposed to happen here) and if we get too far into it, the thread will be locked or deleted, I suggest if this is something that really concerns you, go to a forum that does discuss Islam. You can ask questions there. Here are two such sites.

www.muslimwakeup.com/bb/index.php

www.altmuslim.com/a

Regarding women's rights in Islam, I highly recommend Dr. Riffat Hassan

http://muslim-canada.org/emory.htm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Canli, Alameda,
You missed my point, perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. Honour killings are associated with Islam - I wasn't debating whether or not Islam (the real one or whatever you call it) allows it. It goes without saying however, that it is Islam that is used as an excuse for it. And it's not the bad westerners who do it, but people who call themselves Muslim.



My point Daydreamer is that there is nothing in Islam that condones honor killing.

Quoting Daydreamer:

I see your point that it is impossible to judge the whole community for the actions of some people, but it's not our fault that stories like that are associated with Islam mainly. There must be something wrong with it if it's not Christianity, not Buddhism but Islam that is liable. Terrorists attacks and jihad are what the world learnt about Islam. Pity as it is, whose responsibility is it to clear Islam's name? Westerners?



Have you ever heard of propaganda? All you have to do is shine a light on whatever you want to emphasize to focus attention on it.

Honor killing for suspected indiscretions are against Islamic law....period! The fact that there are some Muslims that do it, does not make it part of the Islamic religion, but part of the cultures of those people who adopted Islam, but did not learn a lot about Islamic jurisprudence.

Quoting Daydreamer:

And again, like it's always been we heard how west oppresses women. No, it doesn't. Women don't have to take their husband's surnames, sometimes men take their wives surname.



Actually, in Islam, women have never HAD to take their husband's surnames. It is only very recently that women in the USA have been free to keep their own names, whereas in Islam, it's always been. They have had the right to own property and inherit wealth. Those rights are only recently gained for women in the West.

Quoting Daydreamer:

Jews? Why aren't there fierce bloody-eyed hoards of Jews in the streets of Paris demolishing cars and wounding people? Why aren't Jews organising terrorist attacks in the USA or London?



Well Daydreamer....that's a very long story....but suffice to say, they are occupied in Palestine/Israel now with other matters. It may be interesting to read some of the Jewish laws that have also been misinterpreted.....however the Jews have had more than their share of cultural bias, demonization and persecution.

Quoting Daydreamer:

True, all religions are focused around male dominance, however, in civilised countries religions come secondary to the Law. No religious oppression is justified or forgiven. Of course there are battered women. But they aren't battered because of religion but because some men are scums. The difference is that if a woman is strong enough to report it, she will be helped and the oppressor imprisoned. Nobody will tell her that it is the way things should be and it's her fate to put up with it.



No man in Islam has the right to beat his wife...as for Western laws...well we see just how effective restraining orders have been for battered women. It is a start though.

Quoting Daydreamer:

The same for mass murderers (they do kill men as well - I haven't heard about honour killings of an unfaithful guy) - they act against society.
When they are caught, usually they end up with capital punishment. I have never heard of honour killings perpetrators being put to death for this reason. So, all in all, there are some differences you have to agree on.



Ummm have you heard of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorena_Bobbitt

I agree Honor Killings are an abomination....but they are not part of Islam, they are part of the societies that adopted Islam on a very superficial level.

Quoting Daydreamer:

As for what Canli said about atheism not being attacked, ridiculed or laughed at - well, that proves it's a pretty neat ideology, doesn't it?



No, it only proves that there are enthusiasts for those ideologies here now. History has shown us a different face.

Quoting Daydreamer:

The reason for Islam being attacked is that there must be a reason to it. And it's not only this forum's tendency. All forums that I read have threads about Islam, and there is nobody but some Muslims who see no faults in it.



I don't suppose the fact that the majority of the world supply of petrol, or strategic locations are in places where Islam is practiced could have anything to do with it?


196.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 07:53 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Daydreamer, exactly my thoughts!

+1!


+1000000 Take note I'm agreeing with Daydreamer.

197.       CANLI
5084 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 07:59 pm

Quoting alameda:




+100000

198.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 08:01 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Peace Train,
You really are a goody-goody !!
I did not believe Aenigma first when she called you sanctimonious, but she was absolutely right (as usual )
Look at your writing!!
you still dont get it!!
How can you put THAT vulgarity in these words 'A female member was spoken to in an undesirable and inappropriate way by a male.' and try to upease it?
You are trying to soften rawness of that male member's action, because you were cross with the person who was subjected to it!!
For me, this is like walking on the street and seeing a rude, stupid, cave man touching a woman's bum and smirking..
And, when the woman complains about it he gets rough and starts swearing and keep touching the woman!!
I am sorry..As a Turkish man I will nail that guy, smack him on the face and show him how he deserves to be handled.

And as a Turkish man, I will never hesitate for a second to belittle and humiliate that type of man.
And I will never think, even a split second, he is from my country, he has his traditions blah blah blah. Because I am well aware of my country's traditions, and that type of behavior does not belong to those traditions I know..

And you are saying Where do you think some men on this site get the notion there is a group of menopausal, ageing, stay at home women on this site?..I am lost for words here ....
phew!!!!!!!!!!!

Just as an info, I did not post that poem because I got bored.. I spent some times with the translation and wanted to share..that is all!!
I tried translate 3 poems and, to be honest, i never expected this one would be this 'exciting'!!!



Handsom

I disagree, I am not a 'goody goody'. I agree, I can be sanctimonious at times, although I don't have the monopoly on it, only the crown

I haven't tried to appease any vulgarity, I'm sorry you think that. I will say again, I do not defend what was said to GG and I said this personally to those involved. I'm not going to alter my writing style for anyone Handsom. I think I also mentioned that there is no point to the repeated deletion of the same users. It becomes a farce and deletion is not a deterrent. Perhaps 2 strikes and your out permanently is in order . . . I don't know.

I've noticed Dr Treatment has used more bad language today and, no, it is not acceptable.

I wasn't 'cross' with GG, I simply did not agree with her treatment of Alameda and said so. GG was very scathing of Alameda, on this thread and it was completely unsolicited. She may have history with Alameda that I don't know about but that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Always dredging up old axes to grind does nothing for a peaceful existence. One only has to look at the conflicts going on around the world to understand that. What good does harbouring grudges do for anyone? I am assuming this was what was behind GG's treatment of Alameda because I can't see any other reason and also, generally, people do dredge up old arguments. Of course, we have freedom of speech and people have every right to do this, as I have the right to think it is futile.

I agree, the treatment of GG is not a behaviour traditional or peculiar to Turkish men. I know what it's like to live with a drunk who is handy with his fists. (And no I didn't deserve it and I had the strength of character and self respect to get out). It's not the same as vulgar words on a website, believe me. One of the first rules on how to treat mindless and vulgar verbal attacks in cyberspace would be to ignore it. Rising to it makes it better sport for the perpetrators. I think I acknowledged that MrX was much more representative, yet he comes in for some mocking at times.

I too am lost for words with regard to where the image of ageing, menopausal, stay at home women came from. It came from somewhere and it wasn't from me (I am a menopausal adolesecent ).

About the poem. I'm sure I acknowledged your appreciation of the technical and creative aspects of the poem.

I never made a post criticising it. My field is literature, why would I?

Catwoman wasn't happy with some aspects of the poem and someone asked would it be just as acceptable to write a poem about terrorism. I almost posted at that point. I don't think anyone would be so stupid as to venerate a poem glorifying terrorism. However, there is a wealth of war poetry that draws attention to the atrocities of war/violence. There are also many musicians and artists who do the same.

My comment about your choice of poem was my attempt at humour. Sorry if it failed. It wasn't my intention to demean your appreciation of the artistry of a poet or your translation skills. I was merely attempting to tease you because I had seen your post earlier in the day about being bored. I assumed you were "killing two birds with one stone" enjoying a poem but at the same time choosing one that you knew would get people talking. There are layers to poems, some people look only on the surface whilst others delve deeper. All responses are valid because they enrich the discussion about the poem.

So, these are my responses Handsom. Accept them or don't accept them. Your opinion of me is not a problem for me. I very rarely get cross and it always puzzles me when I see irate people on the site. Each to their own.

Thanks for your comments

199.       CANLI
5084 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 08:54 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:



İ wont be repeating what alameda said,i totally agree with it.
What you know about İslam,you knew it through your Media,not through us
And i dont see its our duity or responsbility too to walk arround and explain ourselves
Frankly,i dont think we have to do it,if you interest to know about İslam you can read about it from many source and you can then draw your own conclusions about it and about us
But you just want it the easy way,and that what your Media provides to you
Why İslam,and not Christianity,because its your Media,and not ours
The reasons...,well i dont exactly know,maybe to show your people how bad Muslims are,and justify some actions against us as it did in İsrael and Palastin ?!
Maybe...

They call Palastinain terrorists too for attacking İsraelians,but they never call İsraelians same...did they ?
İn your Media ?!
So what İsrael do is justified,and what Palastianin do isnt,yes ?!

And who said Jihad is a bad thing ?
Who told you that ?!
Your Media again isnt it,and you didnt take the time to check if its true or not,yes ?
Jihad in İslam means to fight in wars for some reasons,to protect your country,protect your home
So you may get killed in such wars,and ALLAH told us HE will reward us by Heaven
HE ordered us not to kill a woman,a child,or an old man though our wars
That is Jihad, so is that what you know about Jihad ?
No..
Where did you get your information about it from?
Your Media
Why should it be my responsibility to show you or tell you differently?
Why its not your own responsibility to check from what info you get before you believe it ?!
İ would do that gladly while we are debating or something,but im talking in general,not many people get the chance to talk and debat with others to reach differnt conclutions.
You are blaming us for İslam image in the West,but who reported this image to you,the way you saw it or understand it ?
Did we ?!
And were we the one who believed what we've been told ?!

We dont have to prove ourselve to you to gain your acceptance,or to defend our believes or our religion too.

And why do you count terrorism againist the West only,how about terrorism in the East ?!
You dont see fierce bloody-eyed hoards of Jews in the streets of Paris demolishing cars and wounding people,or Jews organising terrorist attacks in the USA or London,but you can see much ,much more in Palastin ,or you dont count this as terrorism ?
You can see it also in İraq...
Do you care to tell me what do you call it ?!

You assumed İslam ordered this,then should we assume Christianity,and Judaism ordered such too ?!
Specially Crusade is well known and it could prove such claim it !

The different is...We Muslims follow our religions orders and try to live by it,so you assume whatever any Muslim do,right or wrong is from İslam
But in the West,you abounded Christianity rules,you dont live by it,it has a minor influance to your life and actions,so it wont be judged by any individual's actions as you judge İslam .

Last thing,
Everyone deserves respect for just breathing.
When ALLAH created Adam,angels kneeled infront of him,so any human deserve respect till he lose it .
You disrespect people till they earn your respect,or do you respect people till they lose your respect ?!

200.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 08:59 pm

Canli....please don't generalize about what Christians do and whether or not we live by the rules because most of us do. It is just as infuriating as us assuming all Muslims are terrorists!! You turned around and stereotyped all of us because of the media you are subjected to. This is exactly what you accused us of.

201.       CANLI
5084 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:08 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

Canli....please don't generalize about what Christians do and whether or not we live by the rules because most of us do. It is just as infuriating as us assuming all Muslims are terrorists!! You turned around and stereotyped all of us because of the media you are subjected to. This is exactly what you accused us of.


Good Elisabeth...then you got what im talking about...
That is EXACTLY what i mean ..
That what we know,and that what YOUR Media show to us,so that what we should believe about Christians and Christianity?!
Should it be your duty to go and explain this to every Muslim who believe so ?!
Should it be your fault or Christianity fault that some people who dont follow its rules see Christianity not suitable for them ?
Should we get the conclusion that Christianity should be improved because of such people ?!
ridiculous...yes?!

202.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:08 pm

Quote:

What you know about İslam,you knew it through your Media,not through us
And i dont see its our duity or responsbility too to walk arround and explain ourselves
Frankly,i dont think we have to do it



Well that is part of the big problem. You NEVER see anyone speaking out or condoning the Jihad from your religion. I would think it is YOUR responsiblity and duty to enlighten those who link Islam with terrorism. But no instead the Islamic world is silent, which in return sends a huge message to the rest of the world that it is acceptable.

203.       KeithL
1455 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:11 pm

if you don't hear Muslims denouncing Al-Queda then you aren't listening hard enough.

204.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:14 pm

Quoting KeithL:

if you don't hear Muslims denouncing Al-Queda then you aren't listening hard enough.



No, I haven't heard a pouring outcry...sorry. Maybe you have been in Turkey too long.

205.       CANLI
5084 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:16 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Quote:

What you know about İslam,you knew it through your Media,not through us
And i dont see its our duity or responsbility too to walk arround and explain ourselves
Frankly,i dont think we have to do it



Well that is part of the big problem. You NEVER see anyone speaking out or condoning the Jihad from your religion. I would think it is YOUR responsiblity and duty to enlighten those who link Islam with terrorism. But no instead the Islamic world is silent, which in return sends a huge message to the rest of the world that it is acceptable.


İslamic world isnt in silence,but its not heard
And whatever anyone say,YOU will see it as if we are just defending ourselves,and you dont believe it
So i guess you better find out about it yourself.
Take Türkiye for example,tell me what did you know about Türkiye from your Media before you read and visit it,and what you know about Türkiye after you did ?!
İts same .
Much difference,yes?
So im afraid you have to make your homework if you want to know the truth!

206.       KeithL
1455 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:19 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting KeithL:

if you don't hear Muslims denouncing Al-Queda then you aren't listening hard enough.



No, I haven't heard a pouring outcry...sorry. Maybe you have been in Turkey too long.



In fairness to you, not many muslim TV stations or newspapers in Ohio...

207.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:30 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting KeithL:

if you don't hear Muslims denouncing Al-Queda then you aren't listening hard enough.



No, I haven't heard a pouring outcry...sorry. Maybe you have been in Turkey too long.



In fairness to you, not many muslim TV stations or newspapers in Ohio...



You know, it doesn't look like they are really that interested KeithL....I have posted numerous links here, but it does not seem they were really interested enough to look at them.

208.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:32 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting Elisabeth:

Canli....please don't generalize about what Christians do and whether or not we live by the rules because most of us do. It is just as infuriating as us assuming all Muslims are terrorists!! You turned around and stereotyped all of us because of the media you are subjected to. This is exactly what you accused us of.


Good Elisabeth...then you got what im talking about...
That is EXACTLY what i mean ..
That what we know,and that what YOUR Media show to us,so that what we should believe about Christians and Christianity?!
Should it be your duty to go and explain this to every Muslim who believe so ?!
Should it be your fault or Christianity fault that some people who dont follow its rules see Christianity not suitable for them ?
Should we get the conclusion that Christianity should be improved because of such people ?!
ridiculous...yes?!



Well, Canli, I don't feel any particular responsibility to educate people about Christianity, to tell the truth. I just think that both sides accusing the other of wicked deeds is getting old. It just adds to the problem. It doesn't seem that anyone wants to sit and listen but only to accuse and point out shortcomings in the other side. On a personal note, I am a Christian who has lived with a Muslim for a few years now. We live in peace and respect eachtothers ways. It can be done...all you have to do is stop looking at all the differences.

209.       KeithL
1455 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:35 pm

listening is a skill...

210.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:35 pm

Quoting KeithL:

listening is a skill...


huh? What?

211.       CANLI
5084 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:36 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:



Well, Canli, I don't feel any particular responsibility to educate people about Christianity, to tell the truth. I just think that both sides accusing the other of wicked deeds is getting old. It just adds to the problem. It doesn't seem that anyone wants to sit and listen but only to accuse and point out shortcomings in the other side. On a personal note, I am a Christian who has lived with a Muslim for a few years now. We live in peace and respect eachtothers ways. It can be done...all you have to do is stop looking at all the differences.


+1
aynı,i dont feel that too,and not my responsibility what people know either.

212.       KeithL
1455 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:36 pm

213.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:42 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting KeithL:

if you don't hear Muslims denouncing Al-Queda then you aren't listening hard enough.



No, I haven't heard a pouring outcry...sorry. Maybe you have been in Turkey too long.




In fairness to you, not many muslim TV stations or newspapers in Ohio...



A couple of minutes on a search engine and there is a great deal of information out there.

http://www.heartsandminds.org/mideast/muslims.htm

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/AlQaida-losing-support-among-Muslims/270641/

http://www.reformislam.org/

http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/02/20/muslims-who-renounce-violence/

Muslims against domestic violence
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7368/muslimdv_sign.htm

http://imamjohari.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/muslims-working-against-domestic-violence/


214.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:48 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting Elisabeth:

Canli....please don't generalize about what Christians do and whether or not we live by the rules because most of us do. It is just as infuriating as us assuming all Muslims are terrorists!! You turned around and stereotyped all of us because of the media you are subjected to. This is exactly what you accused us of.


Good Elisabeth...then you got what im talking about...
That is EXACTLY what i mean ..
That what we know,and that what YOUR Media show to us,so that what we should believe about Christians and Christianity?!
Should it be your duty to go and explain this to every Muslim who believe so ?!
Should it be your fault or Christianity fault that some people who dont follow its rules see Christianity not suitable for them ?
Should we get the conclusion that Christianity should be improved because of such people ?!
ridiculous...yes?!



Well, Canli, I don't feel any particular responsibility to educate people about Christianity, to tell the truth. I just think that both sides accusing the other of wicked deeds is getting old. It just adds to the problem. It doesn't seem that anyone wants to sit and listen but only to accuse and point out shortcomings in the other side. On a personal note, I am a Christian who has lived with a Muslim for a few years now. We live in peace and respect eachtothers ways. It can be done...all you have to do is stop looking at all the differences.



In the UK there are many multi faith initiatives that work very well.

For those people that are genuinely interested, it may be worth investigating to see if there is such an initiative near you. (sorry Lisa, I'm not aiming this at you I'm just adding it to my first sentence, which I posted in relation to your "peace and respect" statement).

215.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:53 pm

Quoting KeithL:



From our founding fathers:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible...Some books on Deism fell into my hands...It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist."
-Benjamin Franklin, "Toward the Mystery" (autobiography)

"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice....he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers...Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did.
-Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799

"As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of of Musselmen (Muslims), - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
-Treaty of Tripoli, signed into law by John Adams

And, my most favorite....
"I promised you a letter on Christianity, which I have not forgotten...The delusion...on the clause of the Constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favourite hope of an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own...the returning good sense of our country threatens abortion of their hopes and they (the preachers) believe that any portion of power confided to me (such as being elected president), will be excerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: FOR I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD, ETERNAL HOSTILITY AGAINST EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN."
-Thomas Jefferson, personal letter to Benjamin Rush (all-caps are also on Jefferson memorial)

"Finally, in answer to Fortescue Aland's question why the Ten Commandments should not now be a part of the common law of England we may say they are not because the never were."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

"I was glad to find in your book a formal contradiction, at length,...that Christianity is part of the common law. The proof of the contrary, which you have adduced, is inconrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever existed...What a conspiracy this, between Church and State. Sing Tantarara, rogues all, rogues all. Sing Tantarara, rogues all!"
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Major John Cartwright, 6/5/1824

Every school child learns that the Enlightenment was the philosophical influence on our Founding Fathers. The Enlightenment was a secular movement that limited greatly the power of the Church, reducing it to purely ecclesiastical, rather than political, functions. Monarchy is the prevailing form of government for religious societies. Monarchs rule by divine right; their birth to a royal family signals they were chosen by God. Republics are led by men and chosen by men. Our government and our foundational texts were intended to be secular.
The whole idea of the US as a Christian nation stems from the mythology that all Europeans came to America fleeing religious persecution. This was important in the formation of the Massachusetts colony, but not throughout English America. Virginia was a royal company established for the crown's economic advancement. Georgia was a penal colony. The Carolinas were founded by slaveholders who migrated from the British sugar islands in the Caribbean. The reasons for the establishment of the colonies were varied, but the Founding Fathers were indeed deists. They were profoundly influenced by the Enlightenment and worked to create a secular form of government, a republic. If they'd wanted to create a Christian society, they would have kept monarchy as their chosen form of government.

by Robert Paul Reyes
MensNewsDaly.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"America is a Christian nation and it was founded on Christian principles." This is the Big Lie that is constantly being uttered from fundamentalist pulpits. This untruth has been repeated so often, that most Christians believe that Jesus Christ was one of the Founding Fathers of our great nation.
This was not true when America was founded more than two centuries ago, and it's certainly not true today; America is one of the most religiously diverse nations on the planet. It's this ethnic, religious and political diversity that's our greatest strength; religious polarization can only weaken our union.
If fundamentalists lie about this important matter -- they shouldn't be believed when they wax indignant on moral and spiritual matters. America is not a Christian nation; abortion is not murder; feminists are not witches; abstinence-only sex education does not work; SpongeBob SquarePants and Tinky Winky are not gay (not that there is anything wrong with being homosexual); and George W. Bush does not have a direct line to the Almighty.
Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ideals. The intellectual leaders who created America believed that human reason could be used to combat ignorance, superstition and tyranny; they had a natural animosity toward organized religion. It's not surprising that God is only a footnote in the grand documents that are the bedrock of our democracy.
The Constitution makes no mention whatever of any deity. In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist Papers, the Supreme Being is mentioned only twice. In the Declaration of Independence, the Big Guy gets two brief nods: A reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the often quoted line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."
If the Founding Fathers were Christians and they wanted to establish a Christian nation, then why didn't they mention Jesus Christ even once in a document that they knew would be the cornerstone and foundation of the emerging democracy? That's like Marx writing the "Communist Manifesto" without mentioning "socialism".
The distinguished leaders of the American Revolution were not devout individuals, and they fought energetically to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's immortal words, "a wall of separation between church and state."
If we define a Christian as a believer in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then most of the leading lights of the American Revolution were not Christians at all. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine were deists -- they believed in one Supreme Being but rejected revelation and all the supernatural elements of evangelical Christianity. John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian; in his published writings he seemed more deist than Christian. In other words if these gentlemen were alive today, they would be more at home in a liberal Presbyterian congregation than at Jerry Falwell's Thomas Road Baptist Church.
It is latter-day interlopers who have breached the wall of separation between church and state. In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954.
If we really want to abide by the spirit of the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence -- we will put an end to all this foolishness about bringing back God into our public schools. Those who imagine a Christian America would be paradise would be well advised to consider the theocracies of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan under the Taliban.
Ironically, as our nation becomes less Christian and more religiously diverse, evangelicals redouble their efforts to make America more Christian.
Everyone who loves democracy and freedom must fight the efforts of fundamentalists to tear down the wall of separation between church and state. Jesus Christ may reign supreme in evangelical churches, but He should be kicked to the curb if He tries to scale the wall of separation and enter the political arena.
America is not a Christian nation. America is not a Christian nation. America is not a Christian nation. God, it feels good telling the truth. I may be a "little voice crying in the wilderness", but with the truth on my side, I will defeat a lie -- no matter how big.

The flag is red white and blue because those are the colors of the 'degrees' of original Freemasonry (the other degrees were added on later). Red = 3rd Master , White = 1st Entered Apprentice, Blue = 2nd Fellowcraft.
The streets of DC are laid out on Masonic symbols of Compass and Square. In fact the "G" of the Washington Monument is the centerpiece with the Capital as the Eastern V ( the Jefferson Monument is the southern end of the Square with the White House as the northern end. The Compass is topped in the west with the Lincoln Memorial.
Dan Brown would be proud of this steganography 'in plain sight'.
Oh, and despite what idiots say, you can be a Freemason and a Christian simultaneously. George Washington is a perfect example. His Prayer for the Nation:
""Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in thy holy protection, that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States at large.
And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation.
Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.""

A rather nice blend of Micah 6:8 and the spirit of I Corinthians 13, IMHO. And Washington's tolerance of Judaism is remembered in the Rhode Island synagogue annual reading of his letter to them:

""To the Hebrew Congregation in Newport Rhode Island

Gentlemen:
While I receive with much satisfaction, your Address replete with expressions of affection and esteem, I rejoice in the opportunity of answering you, that I shall always retain a grateful remembrance of the cordial welcome I experienced in my visit to New port, from all classes of Citizens.
The reflection on the days of difficulty and danger which are past, is rendered the more sweet, from a consciousness that they are succeeded by days of uncommon prosperity and security. If we have wisdom to make the best use of the advantages with which we are now favored, we cannot fail, under the just administration of a good Government, to become a great and a happy people.
The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.
It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants, while every one shall sit in safety under his own wine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.


George Washington Letter to the Touro Synagogue, 1790"" from
..."light, more light !" is a frequent Masonic request for Divine guidance and illumination...make of that what you will....However, he did not, I'm sure, mean to demean them in any way by writing this Prayer for the nation with the mention of his personal saviors name (note the 'Divine Author' in the main body of the prayer). 'TGAOTU' -- The Great Architect of the Universe is most dutifully served by his humble servant George Washington, and TGAOTU, who knows the hearts of all men, would probably admit that by example, no matter what outwardly religious trappings a man cloaks himself in, his actions, by far, display the extent of his relationship with the Almighty.

The thing with Freemasons, especially back then, is knowing the coded speech. The secret arts parts and points etc etc can convey the meaning often better than obsequious public displays.

I'm a John Adams buff so mine are Adams flavored:

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.

-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, undated

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?

-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.

-- John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?

-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.

-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

216.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 09:58 pm

Alameda....I think that is the longest post EVER!! Good quotes though.

217.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:01 pm

The Monarchy here in the UK is the Head of the Church of England and is known as The Defender of the Faith. It may interest people to know that the heir to the throne, Prince Charles has expressed his wish to be known as The Defender of the Faiths, when (and if) he becomes King. I think (it was a while ago when I saw the report), the Faiths he had in mind were Christianity, Islam and Judaism . . . . I don't know what the Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists in the Uk will make of this . . .

218.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:02 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

Alameda....I think that is the longest post EVER!! Good quotes though.



Something to think about hmmmm Elisabeth...

219.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:03 pm

Quoting alameda:

Quoting KeithL:



From our founding fathers:



Very interesting Alameda, but you are slipping . . . not a link in sight !

220.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:04 pm

Quoting peace train:

The Monarchy here in the UK is the Head of the Church of England and is known as The Defender of the Faith. It may interest people to know that the heir to the throne, Prince Charles has expressed his wish to be known as The Defender of the Faiths, when (and if) he becomes King. I think (it was a while ago when I saw the report), the Faiths he had in mind were Christianity, Islam and Judaism . . . . I don't know what the Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists in the Uk will make of this . . .



He has many years to think about what faiths he wants to defend. His mother seems reluctant to step down.

221.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:09 pm

Quoting peace train:

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting KeithL:

if you don't hear Muslims denouncing Al-Queda then you aren't listening hard enough.



No, I haven't heard a pouring outcry...sorry. Maybe you have been in Turkey too long.




In fairness to you, not many muslim TV stations or newspapers in Ohio...



A couple of minutes on a search engine and there is a great deal of information out there.

http://www.heartsandminds.org/mideast/muslims.htm

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/AlQaida-losing-support-among-Muslims/270641/

http://www.reformislam.org/

http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/02/20/muslims-who-renounce-violence/

Muslims against domestic violence
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7368/muslimdv_sign.htm

http://imamjohari.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/muslims-working-against-domestic-violence/




Wow so many..not sure were to start. lol And KeithL, I didn't realize Minnesota had so many either..

222.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:12 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting peace train:

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting KeithL:

if you don't hear Muslims denouncing Al-Queda then you aren't listening hard enough.



No, I haven't heard a pouring outcry...sorry. Maybe you have been in Turkey too long.




In fairness to you, not many muslim TV stations or newspapers in Ohio...



A couple of minutes on a search engine and there is a great deal of information out there.

http://www.heartsandminds.org/mideast/muslims.htm

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/AlQaida-losing-support-among-Muslims/270641/

http://www.reformislam.org/

http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/02/20/muslims-who-renounce-violence/

Muslims against domestic violence
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7368/muslimdv_sign.htm

http://imamjohari.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/muslims-working-against-domestic-violence/




Wow so many..not sure were to start. lol And KeithL, I didn't realize Minnesota had so many either..



Tip of the iceberg

223.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Mar 2008 Tue 10:12 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

Alameda....I think that is the longest post EVER!! Good quotes though.



No surprise.... lol

224.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 12:32 am

225.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 12:51 am

Canlı, may I ask what you think of Egypts reject of Dutch and Danish participation on Cairo International Film Festival for Children? Denmark got rejected because of their cartoons, and the Netherlands for a film that has nothing to do with this festival and hasnt even been published yet. I found this article on the internet, quoting what an Egypt spokesman said about the situation in the Netherlands. I made the parts bold which I think are very superficial for Dutch society and politics, and in which this Hossam Zaki creates a wrong image of the Netherlands in your ocuntry. It is a shame to your democracy that our childrenfilm got rejected, based on such weak arguments.



February 23, 2008
Egypt 'monitoring attacks on Islam ahead of Dutch TV film'
It is noteworthy that Egypt is monitoring this situation very closely, but we have never heard of the Egyptian Foreign Ministry monitoring, closely or otherwise, any of the acts of violence committed in the name of Islam, which have led to this film's being made in the first place. From AFP (thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist):

CAIRO (AFP) — Egypt on Friday deplored what it called gratuitous attacks on Islam and said it was closely monitoring plans by a Dutch filmmaker to release an anti-Koran film.
"It is regrettable that European lawmakers and politicians use gratuitous methods to gain electoral votes by attacking the sacred values and religions of others," foreign ministry spokesman Hossam Zaki said in a statement.

Dutch far-right deputy Geert Wilders has said he will be airing on television in the Netherlands in March a controversial anti-Islam film called "Fitna" (Ordeal), which accuses the Koran of inciting people to murder.

Such politicians, Zaki said in reference to Wilders, "focus their hatred on Islam" and plan to broadcast a film undermining Islamic symbols.

These acts "feed hatred against Muslims and encourage extremism and confrontation instead of opting for dialogue based on mutual respect," Zaki said.

Egypt is monitoring the situation "very closely," he added, but also noted the "comprehension" of the Dutch authorities over Cairo's concerns....

226.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 12:58 am

Another thing I would like to add: I think Wilders is a dangerous man for society. All those in the Dutch streets who demonstrate with 'cigarrette packs with his head on it, saying Brings severe damage to society', they be praised! It is true that he has a hatred for Islam and that he does not improve dialogue in our country, which we need so much. But it goes too far that other countries reject cultural participation based on the film of ONE person. There are more people in our society against him than backing him. But still Egypt chooses to reject the Dutch entry. It makes me feel like they see us as the bad-west. And then there is AlQaida threatening to harm our soldiers in Afganistan if we broadcast it. These are just two examples of Middle Eastern (muslim) rejection, based on religion. How can you tell me you (general) open for discussion if your government doesnt back you up?

I am not anymore against Islam than I am against any other religion, they may be good in personal life, and in family life. But when we look at the bigger picture, I can see only harm come from them.

I dont not wish to offend anyones feelings, (as I said on family level there doesnt seem to be anything wrong with religion..), I am just speaking the mind of a citizen of a Dutch country that feels that the freedom of speech and thought is going further and further away from this country. And I am genuinely sad aboutt hat.

227.       catwoman
8933 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 01:00 am

DK, when I read the parts you highlighted in your article, these quotes come to my mind...

If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.

The greater the lie, the greater the chance that it will be believed.

228.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 01:08 am

Quoting catwoman:

DK, when I read the parts you highlighted in your article, these quotes of Hitler come to my mind...

If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.

The greater the lie, the greater the chance that it will be believed.



The thing is, I really believe that Wilders is a danger to society. I wouldnt want to compare him to Hitler, but they could definitely be cousins or smt..

My point is, by these superficial statements, without telling the situtaion in the Netherlands etc, you make it sound like Wilders has a big party behind him and that a big part of Dutch society is against Islam.

I would love if Wilders would finally get out of Dutch politics, but I will never be of the group who says that the film should be forbidden. Unfortuantely, I think broadcasting it will have very bad effects for our international relationships in the Middle East.

229.       catwoman
8933 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 01:21 am

I didn't compare Wilders to Hitler!!! I didn't compare anybody to Hitler, I just like the quotes!!! They are so true and used everywhere. I actually thought that statements like "west hates islam" is a bunch of bologne... a big lie that's repeated so often that even westerners begin to believe it...

230.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 01:27 am

Nooo I know! I didnt mean it like that! I just meant to tell you that the significance of the quotes shows his danger to humanity if you ask me



Quoting catwoman:

I didn't compare Wilders to Hitler!!! I didn't compare anybody to Hitler, I just like the quotes!!! They are so true and used everywhere. I actually thought that statements like "west hates islam" is a bunch of bologne... a big lie that's repeated so often that even westerners begin to believe it...

231.       catwoman
8933 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 01:34 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Nooo I know! I didnt mean it like that! I just meant to tell you that the significance of the quotes shows his danger to humanity if you ask me


Is he the guy who made the new movie about Koran?

232.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 01:38 am

Quoting catwoman:

Is he the guy who made the new movie about Koran?



Is making, yes. It has not been broadcasted yet and people speculate whether it is all real or not, but I think there will be a film and soon too!

233.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 01:57 am

DK and Catwoman: I found this link, is this the movie?
The Dutch government fears the film could spark protests like those triggered by the Danish cartoons, in which at least 50 were killed worldwide, and harm Dutch business interests.

Wilders' right-wing party has nine of the 150 seats in the Dutch parliament, and has gained support in recent opinion polls. He has warned of a "tsunami of Islamisation" in a country which is home to almost a million Muslims.

This month, the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance said Muslims in the Netherlands faced mounting violence and discrimination.

Dutch Muslims have said they want to open mosques on the day Fitna is screened to demonstrate tolerance and diffuse tension.



http://roguejew.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/head-choppers-ball-dutch-movie-about-the-koran-nearly-finished/

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL2775592720080227?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

234.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 04:48 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

How can you tell me you (general) open for discussion if your government doesnt back you up?



Where is the discussion dear ?!

You didnt discuss anything with us,you didnt debat,you didnt find out about us,you just insulted us!
Denmark already done it by that cartoon,and here goes your politician too,even yours is more formal tho,after all he is a politician!

You 'general' have insulted our believes,have insulted us,and when we complained about it,you said freedom.
Ok,its our freedom too to choose how to deal with whom insulted us !
You didnt think that we would be insulted and we be ok with it did you ?!
As i said before the base of any kind of relationship is respect,even between countries too.
And you didnt respect us
There is much difference between the way you 'west' look at religion and the way we 'east' look at religion
Our religion consider big part in our lives,where yours not same ,not to many people 'ok Lisa?'
We value our prophet,and all prophets,we dont joke,or talk sarcastic regarding them...ect
Different in so many ways actually

Making a movie about Qur'an ??!!!!
OMG,you really dont have respect for anything at ALL,NOTHİNG ?!

Can you count for me please how many movies Muslim made about Christianity ,or ANY religion??!!!!
You are mad because my government didnt allow Dutch movie nor Danish movie in the festival?
And we shouldnt be MAD because you are İNSULTİNG even our Holly book ?!
Are you serious?!
As i said my dear sometimes you cant turn the other cheek,and its an eye for an eye
No,we wont insult any Holly book,or any religion,because they were sent from ALLAH as well,so they have our fully respect
But as for me personally,i would do what ever i can...
Since that danish cartoon,many people here dont buy any daish products,and their product were spoiled at supermarkets and so
We welcome them in our country as individuals,we deal with them personally for who they are.
But buy from them,watch their movies,..ect..
Nope
Who doesnt want to know me,i dont want to know him as well !
And,i wont give a penny from my money to a person who insulted me,and think its his own freedom to do it,so,SORRY i wont pay him for that ,its my freedom too!
Maybe that is not much,wont affect anything,but at least i have the satisfaction,that im not dealing with who dont respect me !
A,B,C any acquaintance,that you smile to that person and say Hello
But instead you said ''what a barbaric Muslims! '' you've called it freedom of speech then you surprised why we are offended?!
İ dont believe it !
You feel mad D_K ?İ feel both mad and disappointed AGAİN !

235.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 04:52 am

Quoting catwoman:

I didn't compare Wilders to Hitler!!! I didn't compare anybody to Hitler, I just like the quotes!!! They are so true and used everywhere. I actually thought that statements like "west hates islam" is a bunch of bologne... a big lie that's repeated so often that even westerners begin to believe it...



Yes cat,we hallucinate about it !
We made that cartoon not Denmark,and we are making the Dutch movie too,and it will be released with in a week ,we made them but we like to lable them in the name of Western countries !!!!

Have you any idea how sad such things make us ?!!!!

236.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:10 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

such a weak arguments.



''called for the Koran to be banned and likened it to Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf''
Wilders
That is NOT what you can call it such such a weak argument !
Coming from democratically parliamentarian elected by you,that means MUCH im afraid !

237.       catwoman
8933 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:47 am

Quoting CANLI:

Yes cat,we hallucinate about it !
We made that cartoon not Denmark,and we are making the Dutch movie too,and it will be released with in a week ,we made them but we like to lable them in the name of Western countries !!!!

Have you any idea how sad such things make us ?!!!!


Yes, Canli, I'm sure these things make you sad, but if you come to live in europe, nobody would discriminate you because you're muslim. In the same way, when you live in a western country, you have to respect how they understand freedom. When people come to your country, they have to respect your rules. There are millions of cartoons about christianity, yet christians didn't burn any embassies or flags.

238.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 11:39 am

Ok, so what I gather is Islam is such a beautiful religion, with equal rights to everyone regardless of sex. Everybody's free to make their own choices, religion that doesn't allow killing people for having different believes contrary to Christianity which is responsible for Crusades (regardless of the fact that Crusades lasted till 16th century with their peak in 13th and that the Church condemned them).

Muslims are simply misunderstood, it's not real Muslims who organise terrorist attacks, they are just a tiny fraction of fundamentalists not representative of the whole religious community. The West has absolutely no Muslim communities, those who are there are suffering from constant persecutions, there isn't a single mosque and nowhere can they practise their religion. All West hates Muslims because of the propaganda in tv calling those responsible for 9/11 and London attacks terrorists. Biased media dares to call people skinning their captives terrorists.

How barbaric is the Western media in comparison to propaganda-free Muslim countries. Only there are women free to do whatever they want. They do want to be dependant on men, at least they have no problems getting married unlike poor sexually abused women selling their bodies cheap in the West. They absolutely trust their parents so no choice their parents make is bad for them. Of course they can reject a candidate they don't like like I'm sure it often happens because all Muslim women marry of love. Because their fiancé cannot see them, bodily, animal-like desire is avoided. Thanks to that a woman is not a sexual object but a person. Of course, being a person she may make mistakes, then her husband has the right to punish her with his hand (if I remember correctly). [Just a digression here - how many homes for battered women are there in the East? Or how many homes for single mothers?]. She may even go to work - now that's progress - of course, if her husband lets her to. She has so many other duties, all those kids and housework. Oh, right - she was made to breed so the first chance coming, she should have as many children as her husband wants to. He is the smarter part of the tandem after all. etc etc...

So, the liberal and just Muslim countries don't ban a whole country from an international event basing on the actions of one person. But the evil and corrupt West countries banished all Muslims from for the actions of a group that killed thousands of innocent people and also ban them from any international events.

You're right Canli. West is bad and very unjust to Muslims. Unlike Muslims to the West.

239.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 11:39 am

I will not even consider to reply to Canlıs post. As always, YOU just only see how you get attacked and insulted. There is no discussing with you. And no, I did not discuss or debate. I just stated some facts and wondered what you thought about it, as a genuine wonder. Because I have read some of your posts, and wondered what you had to say about this.

If Kuran says that you have to pray 5 times, and you make a film about praying 5 times. İs it an insult? NO, you would be happy.
But if Kuran says something less happy, and we make a film about it, suddenly were insulting you. Sorry, I almost forgot that your book is all about interpretation. Its just a pity that that interpretation has caused for such a big split among many many muslim communities (the Sunni branch alone has 4 lawschools with different rules!) that it has become to hard for me to understand what is Islam.

Anyway, I wont bother replying to your post. You attacked me based on a film made by a man I hate. So its really funny. I??? attacked you? Because the man I HATE makes a film about your holy book?

If its that holy it dont need protection honey!

240.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 11:42 am

Hey! Good timing Deli_kizin And ideas just as good

241.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 11:47 am

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

such a weak arguments.



''called for the Koran to be banned and likened it to Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf''
Wilders
That is NOT what you can call it such such a weak argument !
Coming from democratically parliamentarian elected by you,that means MUCH im afraid !



HAVE YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST, CANLI? You are so taken over by your hatred towards all that is non-muslim and isnt afraid to say something about it. I hate Wilders, he has said many things that I dont agree with, including your Quote. I even wrote a letter about it to the newspaper. And yes, it is scary that he is getting more and more votes lately. However, I did not vote for him, yet you keep attacking me. I disgust your way of talking.

Your comments make my blood boil. You say you treat every Danish personally? But you dont want to buy their food? Sorry but how is that personal treatment? What does Danish population have to do with their cartoonist? You are so one-sided in your comments. All you do is get furious. But I agree with what is said before: its a Muslim duty to clear the bad reputation. And your 'respect my holy book'-shouts, will accomplish the contrary!

242.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 11:53 am

Quoting CANLI:


Making a movie about Qur'an ??!!!!
OMG,you really dont have respect for anything at ALL,NOTHİNG ?!



Should I respect a book I dont believe in? In that case you should respect a cartoon too, because that is what its maker believed in.

You demand respect from us, but give nothing in return.


I am willing to treat something that is sacred for another with respect. As an example, I am reading Quran and instead of putting it under my bed like I do with all books, I put it high up in the bookcase, so that my partners housemate wont get offended if he sees. I wont crush something of which I know it is sacred for another. But apparantly freedom of speech is not in your book (general). Because you do nothing to respect it. You just want us to respect something that means nothing to us, but are not willing to accept the fact that it doesnt mean anything.


You - us and stuff, they are just general. I dont feel like debating personally.. Im glad Im gone till friday, so that I wont have to feel 'insulted' by Canlı who thinks I back up a rightwing idiot politician, and who thinks I am against Islam and enjoy insulting her holy book.

243.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 12:09 pm

Well put DK!

Canli,

I owe you further explanation but I forgot to include it in my previous post.

Saying "attack" I didn't mean the attack in Iraq but verbal attacks on discussion boards. I am not as ignorant as you wish to think and I am aware of underlying motives of Iraq's occupation.

As for my respecting people or not, I don't disrespect everyone at first. I don't care about most people - and it is neither disrespect not respect. Also, I don't expect everyone to agree with me, nor is it a crucial thing to earn my respect.

244.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 12:52 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Hey! Good timing Deli_kizin And ideas just as good



Just saw your post!

245.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 01:40 pm

D_K,i wasnt refering to you personally in my post,and i thought that was opvious so i didnt state it...my mistake
And im sorry if you got offended by that.

246.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 02:03 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Because I have read some of your posts, and wondered what you had to say about this QUOTE]

end of quote (help! I can't get out of this blue area!)


D-K

Before I make my main point, I would like to say I understand what you are saying about what is happening in your country on the political front and you are right to be concerned about Wilders. Your discussion with Catwoman (while you waited for Canli) was interesting and showed your genuine concern and sadness.

My main point is this:

You are an extremely intelligent and articulate woman. As you say, you have read some of Canli's posts. So in my opinion you knew what her reaction would be. This makes me suspicious of your motives for asking your question in the first place. I think the word I'm looking for is provocation. Why would you want to do that I wonder?

Nothing you said about Islam has not been said before and will probably be said again. Canli, like yourself is a decent human being however I think she should have ignored your question because the conversation was only ever going to head in one direction.

In the interests of retaining my crown of sanctimony, I must suggest that, as a moderator, you have not done your homework and read the site rules . . . you know, the ones about politics, religion and insults (I think accusing someone of having hatred is a tad insulting).

Yes . . . I KNOW I have no room to preach, but then I'm not a moderator . . . I'm supposed to be kept in line . . .by you dear.

Now, this word, 'respect' . . . it has been used quite a lot. How do you suppose you will promote members' respect for site rules and moderators' decisions when moderation is inconsistent and moderators flout the rules (even cause arguments in some instances ) ?

Inconsistency . . . that reminds me . . . Catwoman - You gave public threats of deletion for instances of insulting language, yet no public warnings to either DK or Canli about discussing religion and politics. tut tut

Completely off topic - I suddenly saw myself as the Hunchback of Notre Dame . . . only I wasn't swinging from the bell rope yelling "sanctuary!" . . . no prizes for guessing which word I yelled by the way

247.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 02:39 pm

Quote:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

I almost forgot that your book is all about interpretation. Its just a pity that that interpretation has caused for such a big split among many many muslim communities (the Sunni branch alone has 4 lawschools with different rules!) that it has become to hard for me to understand what is Islam.




Honey,
There are so many branches in Christianity,and YET you understand it well as i suppose
So we understand ours very well too.

Quoting Deli_kizin:


If its that holy it dont need protection honey!



İf the Bible is that Holy to you,so ours is that Holy too
İ didnt say anything about protection,its about respect

Quoting Deli_kizin:

And yes, it is scary that he is getting more and more votes lately. However, I did not vote for him, yet you keep attacking me. I disgust your way of talking.



İm sorry that is the way you feel,as i said in my previous post,i didnt mean you personnlay
As you said here this man is getting more and more votes lately,then the people there are backing him up,agree with what he thinks,it doesnt have to be you dear,but that is the way many people many people think as you just said,and that makes me more disgusted actually

Quoting Deli_kizin:


Your comments make my blood boil. You say you treat every Danish personally? But you dont want to buy their food? Sorry but how is that personal treatment? What does Danish population have to do with their cartoonist? You are so one-sided in your comments. All you do is get furious. But I agree with what is said before: its a Muslim duty to clear the bad reputation. And your 'respect my holy book'-shouts, will accomplish the contrary!



Actually,i dont agree its my duty to clear anything,i wont be walking arround saying hey guys,we are not bad,just hear us out
No,im sorry,as you dont feel you have to defend your thoughts and your believes,i dont feel same too
And even in a way,Muslims tried it by producing movies about İslam,and prophet but that didnt work well,not many Cinema's bought it there .
They simply didnt want to know !

As for danish,we interact personally as individuals when they come to our country,as you said they dont have anything to do with Cartoons,but in formal level,as a country exporting its product to us,noe,sorry,i dont want to deal with that
İ dont want to buy anything from them,and that is my personal choice too
Dont i have that freedom as well ?!
My comments made your blood boil,so as you said you wont even consider to reply to my post
And their Cartoons made my blood boil too,so i cant even say i dont want to deal with them ?!!!


Quoting Deli_kizin:



Should I respect a book I dont believe in? In that case you should respect a cartoon too, because that is what its maker believed in.

You demand respect from us, but give nothing in return.

I am willing to treat something that is sacred for another with respect. As an example, I am reading Quran and instead of putting it under my bed like I do with all books, I put it high up in the bookcase, so that my partners housemate wont get offended if he sees. I wont crush something of which I know it is sacred for another. But apparantly freedom of speech is not in your book (general). Because you do nothing to respect it. You just want us to respect something that means nothing to us, but are not willing to accept the fact that it doesnt mean anything.



NOT TRUE

İ demand respect from you to our religion and our Holy book,and i offer same too

İ respect Bible and i do not believe in also
As you said yourself,you treat something that is sacred for another with respect
And that is what we do,and demand it also...

You want me to respect who are insulting me ?!
And you are comparing the Holy book with some Cartoons ?
İf you want to do comparision,then compare the holly book with another
Qur'an with Bible,and if we respect it or not

We respect Bible too and it also means nothing to us,and we ask for same respect too to Qur'an and knowing ,accepting it means nothing to you too
But its mutual respect that between people,who want to interact with one another.

And you are doing just this as you said in your post,so i dont know exactly what we are argue about ?
You offer that respect to Kur'an to concider partners housemate feelings,and also he should offer same to your holly book too
That is exactly what i talk about and demand by respect


Quoting Deli_kizin:


You - us and stuff, they are just general. I dont feel like debating personally.. Im glad Im gone till friday, so that I wont have to feel 'insulted' by Canlı who thinks I back up a rightwing idiot politician, and who thinks I am against Islam and enjoy insulting her holy book.



Aynı,just to make it clear again that i dont mean you personally
İm sorry again you felt insulted ,was my mistake i didnt make it clear the first time.

248.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 04:16 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:



İ guess you didnt read my post well,
İ've said

Quoting CANLI:



You assumed İslam ordered this,then should we assume Christianity,and Judaism ordered such too ?!
Specially Crusade is well known and it could prove such claim it !


There is the holly book,and its rules,and there are people and do they apply those rules
Some apply it right,some apply it wrong
İts not the book mistake

When a Christian man lies,should i persume that Christianity apply lying or cheeting
Should i think that it ordered it ?!

İ didnt say the East is great and do all the right things,
İ didnt say there are so many things here dont need to be changed
There are
But i said its not İslam fault,İslam has its own rules,and its obvious
People follow or not,its not İslam's fault
İ didnt say there are no Muslim terrorist
There is 9/11,there is Palastin and there is İraq also...so i dont get your point !
You have mosques in your countries,we have churches in ours,so ?

Action of one democratically PARRLİAMENTARİAN person have been elected by his people you mean.
You were free to make your choices,and we are free whether to accept it or not.

İ believe we have problem in clarifying freedom
You believe freedom's limit is the sky
İ believe freedom limits end when it start to hurt some body else

btw,'you' is generally spoken

To answer your question,
[Just a digression here - how many homes for battered women are there in the East? Or how many homes for single mothers?].
İ dont think we have homes for battered women,such women are welcome to go back to their families,family ties here is very strong,so i dont think we need one,even i dont know if we have or not,maybe in the women affair counsel they provide one,that i dont know about.
As for single mothers thank god we dont need it,as sex without marriage not spreading here
But if you mean mothers who lost their husbands and so,again they are welcome at their families homes,parents ,brothers or whatever so they dont need such homes too.

Whether you think İslam is good or bad religion,its your own business actually not mine
My businees is you respect my choice of believes as i respect yours

Stating what your Media provide to you about the East is a fact,is it providing bad things or good things i believe you can answer this much better than i do
But just a note,there is no one or nothing bad %100 or good %100,is there?

West is good or bad, just,or very unjust to Muslims,it wouldnt make us any harm actually
Sadly,it would harm the communications between us

Wehther,West is good,or West is bad,East is good,or East is bad
West and East are there and will always be there wehther they are bad or good so we better deal with that.

249.       teaschip
3870 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 04:16 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Ok, so what I gather is Islam is such a beautiful religion, with equal rights to everyone regardless of sex. Everybody's free to make their own choices, religion that doesn't allow killing people for having different believes contrary to Christianity which is responsible for Crusades (regardless of the fact that Crusades lasted till 16th century with their peak in 13th and that the Church condemned them).

Muslims are simply misunderstood, it's not real Muslims who organise terrorist attacks, they are just a tiny fraction of fundamentalists not representative of the whole religious community. The West has absolutely no Muslim communities, those who are there are suffering from constant persecutions, there isn't a single mosque and nowhere can they practise their religion. All West hates Muslims because of the propaganda in tv calling those responsible for 9/11 and London attacks terrorists. Biased media dares to call people skinning their captives terrorists.

How barbaric is the Western media in comparison to propaganda-free Muslim countries. Only there are women free to do whatever they want. They do want to be dependant on men, at least they have no problems getting married unlike poor sexually abused women selling their bodies cheap in the West. They absolutely trust their parents so no choice their parents make is bad for them. Of course they can reject a candidate they don't like like I'm sure it often happens because all Muslim women marry of love. Because their fiancé cannot see them, bodily, animal-like desire is avoided. Thanks to that a woman is not a sexual object but a person. Of course, being a person she may make mistakes, then her husband has the right to punish her with his hand (if I remember correctly). [Just a digression here - how many homes for battered women are there in the East? Or how many homes for single mothers?]. She may even go to work - now that's progress - of course, if her husband lets her to. She has so many other duties, all those kids and housework. Oh, right - she was made to breed so the first chance coming, she should have as many children as her husband wants to. He is the smarter part of the tandem after all. etc etc...

So, the liberal and just Muslim countries don't ban a whole country from an international event basing on the actions of one person. But the evil and corrupt West countries banished all Muslims from for the actions of a group that killed thousands of innocent people and also ban them from any international events.

You're right Canli. West is bad and very unjust to Muslims. Unlike Muslims to the West.



Completely agree with Deli and you once again..your on a role..The west is bed very bed.....

250.       alameda
3499 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 10:26 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Ok, so what I gather is Islam is such a beautiful religion, with equal rights to everyone regardless of sex. Everybody's free to make their own choices, religion that doesn't allow killing people for having different believes contrary to Christianity which is responsible for Crusades (regardless of the fact that Crusades lasted till 16th century with their peak in 13th and that the Church condemned them). .



Dare I mention the fact that the

Inquisitionthen began in earnest?

Dare I mention witch hunts?

The Witchcraft Act

the Witchcraft Act was only repealled in 1951

Regarding human rights and Islam I suggest reading this:

Are Human Rights Compatible with Islam?


Quoting Daydreamer:

Muslims are simply misunderstood, it's not real Muslims who organise terrorist attacks, they are just a tiny fraction of fundamentalists not representative of the whole religious community. The West has absolutely no Muslim communities, those who are there are suffering from constant persecutions, there isn't a single mosque and nowhere can they practise their religion. All West hates Muslims because of the propaganda in tv calling those responsible for 9/11 and London attacks terrorists. Biased media dares to call people skinning their captives terrorists. .



...and things like White phosphorus (weapon) are civilized?


Seeing as you are so interested in Islam, why don't you actually visit some sites that are set up to answer, as religious discussions are against the forum rules here and we can expect this thread to be locked very soon.

http://www.altmuslim.com/a

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/bb/index.php


251.       libralady
5152 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 12:09 am

Well I think I need a lie down now after reading all this! Hope you are all at peace with one another now that you have gone thorugh therapy in such a deep and meaningful fashion! 26 pages from one poem - Handsom you win the Golden Globe for the longest thread in March lol

252.       alameda
3499 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 12:15 am

Quoting libralady:

Well I think I need a lie down now after reading all this! Hope you are all at peace with one another now that you have gone thorugh therapy in such a deep and meaningful fashion! 26 pages from one poem - Handsom you win the Golden Globe for the longest thread in March lol



Yes, and hardly anyone actually got to the poem. I would have found it interesting to hear different versions of it.

For instance, was the actual poem that obvious with it's allegory?

253.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 12:15 am

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j164/Huxley71/148030534_72023d7e7d_o.gif

254.       KeithL
1455 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 12:33 am

I still think we need to call the Turkish Animal Humane Society to put an end to what he is doing to those kittens...

255.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 12:39 am

Quoting KeithL:

I still think we need to call the Turkish Animal Humane Society to put an end to what he is doing to those kittens...


lol lol lol
I agree

256.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 12:43 am

deleted on request today

257.       lady in red
6947 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 01:15 am

Quoting libralady:

Well I think I need a lie down now after reading all this! Hope you are all at peace with one another now that you have gone thorugh therapy in such a deep and meaningful fashion! 26 pages from one poem - Handsom you win the Golden Globe for the longest thread in March lol



Haha! I've been offline for 4 days and just finished reading my way throught the entire thread!! War and Peace anyone?

258.       geniuda
1070 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 01:26 am

Quoting libralady:

Handsom you win the Golden Globe for the longest thread in March lol


CONGRATULATIONS hansom!

259.       adonis
0 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 01:27 am

Quoting peace train:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Because I have read some of your posts, and wondered what you had to say about this QUOTE]

end of quote (help! I can't get out of this blue area!)


D-K

Before I make my main point, I would like to say I understand what you are saying about what is happening in your country on the political front and you are right to be concerned about Wilders. Your discussion with Catwoman (while you waited for Canli) was interesting and showed your genuine concern and sadness.

My main point is this:

You are an extremely intelligent and articulate woman. As you say, you have read some of Canli's posts. So in my opinion you knew what her reaction would be. This makes me suspicious of your motives for asking your question in the first place. I think the word I'm looking for is provocation. Why would you want to do that I wonder?

Nothing you said about Islam has not been said before and will probably be said again. Canli, like yourself is a decent human being however I think she should have ignored your question because the conversation was only ever going to head in one direction.

In the interests of retaining my crown of sanctimony, I must suggest that, as a moderator, you have not done your homework and read the site rules . . . you know, the ones about politics, religion and insults (I think accusing someone of having hatred is a tad insulting).

Yes . . . I KNOW I have no room to preach, but then I'm not a moderator . . . I'm supposed to be kept in line . . .by you dear.

Now, this word, 'respect' . . . it has been used quite a lot. How do you suppose you will promote members' respect for site rules and moderators' decisions when moderation is inconsistent and moderators flout the rules (even cause arguments in some instances ) ?

Inconsistency . . . that reminds me . . . Catwoman - You gave public threats of deletion for instances of insulting language, yet no public warnings to either DK or Canli about discussing religion and politics. tut tut

Completely off topic - I suddenly saw myself as the Hunchback of Notre Dame . . . only I wasn't swinging from the bell rope yelling "sanctuary!" . . . no prizes for guessing which word I yelled by the way



Lessons from Peace Train - How To Give a Proof To a Person?

bestseller in the bookstores

Gauger is here, where are you?

260.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 01:32 am

Quoting libralady:

Well I think I need a lie down now after reading all this! Hope you are all at peace with one another now that you have gone thorugh therapy in such a deep and meaningful fashion! 26 pages from one poem - Handsom you win the Golden Globe for the longest thread in March lol



Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. This moment is so much bigger than me.
Thank you.
I want to thank my manager xxxxxxx.
Really. And I love you very much.

I want to thank my mom who's given me the strength to fight every single day, to be who I want to be and given me the courage to dream, that this dream might be happening and possible for me. I love you, Mom, so much. Thank you.

I want to thank aenigma, catwoman, girleegirl, canli, alameda, pt , lir, geniuda, elisabeth, teaship, astray and many more and one very, very special lady (you know who you are) Thank you. You're geniuses. This posting experience was magical for me because of you. You believed in me; you trusted me and you gently guided me to very scary places. I thank you. for believing that I could do it. And now tonight I have this. Thank you.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

261.       lady in red
6947 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 01:47 am

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting libralady:

Well I think I need a lie down now after reading all this! Hope you are all at peace with one another now that you have gone thorugh therapy in such a deep and meaningful fashion! 26 pages from one poem - Handsom you win the Golden Globe for the longest thread in March lol



Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. This moment is so much bigger than me.
Thank you.
I want to thank my manager xxxxxxx.
Really. And I love you very much.

I want to thank my mom who's given me the strength to fight every single day, to be who I want to be and given me the courage to dream, that this dream might be happening and possible for me. I love you, Mom, so much. Thank you.

I want to thank aenigma, catwoman, girleegirl, canli, alameda, pt , lir, geniuada, astray and many more and one very, very special lady (you know who you are) Thank you. You're geniuses. This posting experience was magical for me because of you. You believed in me; you trusted me and you gently guided me to very scary places. I thank you. for believing that I could do it. And now tonight I have this. Thank you.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!



Wonderful acceptance speech handsom!
One of the best I have ever heard

262.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 01:48 am

Quoting adonis:


Lessons from Peace Train - How To Give a Proof To a Person?

bestseller in the bookstores

Gauger is here, where are you?


What proof are you talking about? She gave an opinion.

263.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 01:56 am

Quoting peace train:

Inconsistency . . . that reminds me . . . Catwoman - You gave public threats of deletion for instances of insulting language, yet no public warnings to either DK or Canli about discussing religion and politics. tut tut


I also haven't warned adonis and his friends for discussing politics, so seems fair to me. Yeah, we don't really want politics here, yet we do discuss it as long as it's civil.

264.       geniuda
1070 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 01:57 am

Quoting thehandsom:

I want to thank aenigma, catwoman, girleegirl, canli, alameda, pt , lir, geniuda, elisabeth, teaship, astray and many more and one very, very special lady (you know who you are)
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!


ohhh canim, too bad she has left this site...no longer here to see this great event, but wherever she is at I am sure she will be so happy for you...and maybe already celebrating

265.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:01 am

Quoting thehandsom:

I want to thank catwoman, the one very, very special lady Thank you. You're a genius. This posting experience was magical for me because of you. You believed in me; you trusted me and you gently guided me to very scary places. I thank you. for believing that I could do it. And now tonight I have this. Thank you.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!


You're welcome... I had no idea that I had such an impact... but it's nice to hear that all that hard work is good for something. You were a slow learner, but you did it! Keep up the good work handsom!

266.       adonis
0 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:21 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

Inconsistency . . . that reminds me . . . Catwoman - You gave public threats of deletion for instances of insulting language, yet no public warnings to either DK or Canli about discussing religion and politics. tut tut


I also haven't warned adonis and his friends for discussing politics, so seems fair to me. Yeah, we don't really want politics here, yet we do discuss it as long as it's civil.



in Turkey, most of Turkish children sing a childish song. I wanna give the lyrics of that song

"Yalancı, Yalancı
Sana kimse inanmaz
Yalancı, Yalancı
Sözüne kimse kanmaz..."

eng. translation:

"Liar, Liar
nobody believes you
Liar, Liar
nobody is fooled with your word..."

You never warned anybody in here? here is the evidence cat:

catwoman

Quote 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:18 pm

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?

...DOCUMENT TALKS...

267.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:25 am

Quoting adonis:

You never warned anybody in here? here is the evidence cat:

catwoman

Quote 03 Mar 2008 Mon 07:18 pm

Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2?


So you didn't get it! That warning was about your personal attacks during the discussion! You simply cannot debate an issue without going into insulting people! That's what the warning was about.

268.       adonis
0 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:28 am

belly dancer mode on...

forever and ever...

269.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:31 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

Inconsistency . . . that reminds me . . . Catwoman - You gave public threats of deletion for instances of insulting language, yet no public warnings to either DK or Canli about discussing religion and politics. tut tut


I also haven't warned adonis and his friends for discussing politics, so seems fair to me. Yeah, we don't really want politics here, yet we do discuss it as long as it's civil.



But Adonis and his "friends" aren't the only ones that aren't civil, although they may be less subtle. Vulgar name calling by some of his "friends" is not pretty or something I condone but it's a great deal easier to laugh off than some of the more subtle "attacks" made by other members.

270.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:36 am

Quoting peace train:


But Adonis and his "friends" aren't the only ones that aren't civil, although they may be less subtle. Vulgar name calling by some of his "friends" is not pretty or something I condone but it's a great deal easier to laugh off than some of the more subtle "attacks" made by other members.


How laughable that is coming from you!

271.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:38 am

Quoting peace train:

But Adonis and his "friends" aren't the only ones that aren't civil, although they may be less subtle. Vulgar name calling by some of his "friends" is not pretty or something I condone but it's a great deal easier to laugh off than some of the more subtle "attacks" made by other members.


Why don't you stop nagging and grouching and lighten up a bit, heh? Do you always have to be so negative and only keep complaining? We got your point, we are not perfect, now can you finally stop this endless marathon of negative posts? It's getting boring.

272.       geniuda
1070 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:41 am

offffff ..and I thought it was time to start celebrating handsom's Golden Globe's awardlol lol....Sorry hansom, I think we will have to postpone the party

273.       geniuda
1070 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:45 am

offffff my ice cream got melted

274.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:48 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting peace train:


But Adonis and his "friends" aren't the only ones that aren't civil, although they may be less subtle. Vulgar name calling by some of his "friends" is not pretty or something I condone but it's a great deal easier to laugh off than some of the more subtle "attacks" made by other members.


How laughable that is coming from you!



zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

275.       adonis
0 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:49 am

catwoman,

you have no right to warn me. as you know that we had a quarrel about 2 days ago. i wrote my opinion about masturbation of women and stated that most of feminist women do masturbation for satisfying themselves without having a partner. it is my opinion. whatever you agree it or not, you have to respect and if u disagree with my idea, write an opposite idea of you to make a good discussion.

but you didn't do it and making quarrels is a habit of you and you do it well. after taking the proofs from us, you become wild and warn us with the using of admin force. haha, is it fair? even if you use the force of the admin, i've no fear.

now your a playing a victim role... come on cat.. game over..

276.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:55 am

adonis, I'm not playing any victim roles and your opinions about masturbation are not at issue. are you pretending that you don't undestand what the problem is, just to argue with me? Even peace train says that you are vulgar .

277.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:07 am

Quoting peace train:


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


Exactly the point about you! You have this NEED to get the last word in even when you have nothing to say. If it wasn't so coma inducing to watch your ramblings it would be funny!

Now...watch how this is done so you may actually get it right the next time you say you are done responding on a topic. I am making a statement.....This is my last post in response to you on this thread. That actually means....I won't come back 20 more times and respond again!! See how easy that is?

So you have a grand old time with your last word...which I am sure will come. It's been fun winding you up.

278.       adonis
0 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:09 am

Quoting catwoman:

adonis, I'm not playing any victim roles and your opinions about masturbation are not at issue. are you pretending that you don't undestand what the problem is, just to argue with me? Even peace train says that you are vulgar .



you also called me "adomado" in this topic. so it's a reason for the quarrel between us. be careful with your words...

you misunderstood the sentences of peace train.

279.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:11 am

Quoting adonis:

you also called me "adomado" in this topic. so it's a reason for the quarrel between us. be careful with your words...

you misunderstood the sentences of peace train.


and what was it that you called me in return? it wasn't the worst thing you said though canim... I'm sure you're aware of it .

280.       adonis
0 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:16 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting adonis:

you also called me "adomado" in this topic. so it's a reason for the quarrel between us. be careful with your words...

you misunderstood the sentences of peace train.


and what was it that you called me in return? it wasn't the worst thing you said though canim... I'm sure you're aware of it .



it's my right to answer you cat. how can i ignore your calling "adomado" and the other bad words to me? how can i become a remiss person?

i'm defending my rights. okay?

281.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:23 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peace train:

But Adonis and his "friends" aren't the only ones that aren't civil, although they may be less subtle. Vulgar name calling by some of his "friends" is not pretty or something I condone but it's a great deal easier to laugh off than some of the more subtle "attacks" made by other members.


Why don't you stop nagging and grouching and lighten up a bit, heh? Do you always have to be so negative and only keep complaining? We got your point, we are not perfect, now can you finally stop this endless marathon of negative posts? It's getting boring.



Hey! I'm only commenting on a comment you made about a comment I made!!

Me thinks you are a tncey wincey bit cross dear

nagging, grouching, negativity, complaining, boring . . . .

I'm sorry, I'm sure it said in the TC handbook that development of these characteristics was a prerequisite prior to making one's first post in the forum. Oh . . don't tell me.... I did all that preparation and now someone in their ivory tower went and changed the rules.. . it's the story of my life . . . always the last to find out.

btw are those 5 words insulting? I'm not sure. Someone called me "rabid" once - is that insulting? Must not have been because they weren't warned about it. Rabid, rabid, rabid . . . has a certain je ne sais quoi, I thought it was funny actually.

(See Peace Train skipping off into the distance . . . to see Grandma)

282.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:25 am

Quoting geniuda:

offffff my ice cream got melted



Don't worry, there's plenty of popcorn

283.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:27 am

Peace train, from now on I agree with everything you say so that we don't have to talk any longer!

284.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:31 am

Quoting adonis:


Why exactly aren't you sleeping yet?

285.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:32 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting peace train:


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


Exactly the point about you! You have this NEED to get the last word in even when you have nothing to say. If it wasn't so coma inducing to watch your ramblings it would be funny!

Now...watch how this is done so you may actually get it right the next time you say you are done responding on a topic. I am making a statement.....This is my last post in response to you on this thread. That actually means....I won't come back 20 more times and respond again!! See how easy that is?

So you have a grand old time with your last word...which I am sure will come. It's been fun winding you up.




z is that better? Yup . . .I think it is . . . you know what they say . . . less is more . . .

z makes a much more dramatic statement than
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

so GG

z


p.s. you have Catwoman to thank for that. She told me to lighten up.

Soooooooooooooo exhilirating . . .thanks for the advice Cat

286.       adonis
0 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:36 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting adonis:


Why exactly aren't you sleeping yet?



there is a proverb in Turkish:

"su uyur, düşman uyumaz."

it means: "water sleeps, enemy doesn't sleep"

that's why, i'm not sleeping...

ps: don't say "canım" to me.

287.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:37 am

Quoting catwoman:

adonis, I'm not playing any victim roles and your opinions about masturbation are not at issue. are you pretending that you don't undestand what the problem is, just to argue with me? Even peace train says that you are vulgar .



Read my post again. I never said Adonis was vulgar. I said his "friends" were vulgar.

Take care dear

288.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:43 am

Quoting catwoman:

Peace train, from now on I agree with everything you say so that we don't have to talk any longer!



I agree

289.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:46 am

Quoting adonis:

there is a proverb in Turkish:

"su uyur, düşman uyumaz."

it means: "water sleeps, enemy doesn't sleep"

that's why, i'm not sleeping...

ps: don't say "canım" to me.


Ok, thanks for the explanation canim
good night!

290.       adonis
0 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:49 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting adonis:

there is a proverb in Turkish:

"su uyur, düşman uyumaz."

it means: "water sleeps, enemy doesn't sleep"

that's why, i'm not sleeping...

ps: don't say "canım" to me.


Ok, thanks for the explanation canim
good night!



learn Turkish from adonis canım...

291.       CANLI
5084 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:50 am

292.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 03:57 am


http://www.p7a77.net/mums/journal/graphics/prayer.gif

293.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 04:06 am

Quoting Roswitha:





Is that a US flag I see? GW made another faux pas? Whose SATs is he trying to raise?
And you there on the front row! PAY ATTENTION!

294.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 04:07 am

Quoting CANLI:



OK . . .I will go quietly. Thank you Canli

295.       CANLI
5084 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 04:11 am

Hold the door please,im leaving too

296.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 10:50 am

I don't know about you, but I got bored with going through the same thing over and over again. Alameda, thanks for proving my point

Quoting DAYDREAMER:

Here at this site, the loudest-speaking Muslims instantly tell us not to dig out the dirt in a backyard that doesn't belong to us or immediately start to talk about Inquisition. They fail to see the difference between past and now.

Actually in secondary school I was absolutely obsessed with Witchcraft persecutions and history. Saying that they finished in 1951 is far from truth - 19th century seems more proper but even then witch-burning incidents were not common. Still, I am willing to take your date as true for the sake of this argument. 1951 is almost 60 years ago - that's over two generations back. Not that I'm defending Christianity - I rejected it years ago. But putting their crimes against humanity against contemporary situation in Muslim countries is ridiculous. Anyway, it reminds me of an old joke:

US delegation in USSR during the years of communism. They ask their hosts how is it that people are devoid of their rights, have nothing to eat, shops are empty, people get sent to gulags (camps) in Siberia for telling jokes and still the people don't rebel against it. In reply the USSR official says "And you beat black people in USA"

(I didn't say it was a particularly funny one )

Oh, and thanks for the sites you typed. But I am not THAT interested in Islam. I went through it back in the days when I was trying to see if only Catholicism is not for me. I discovered that if I were to choose a religion Islam would be my last choice. But that is my personal opinion. Anyway, I wrote the initial post only because some members were whining that only atheists and free-thinkers were welcome to this site, which I reckon not true.

297.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 10:51 am

If only the lecture was by Jennifer Lopez...

298.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 10:59 am

Quoting AlphaF:

If only the lecture was by Jennifer Lopez...



Hehehe that would be quite hard, she's just have twins so she's fighting with barfs and poos

299.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:28 pm

Quoting peace train:

Quoting Roswitha:





Is that a US flag I see? GW made another faux pas? Whose SATs is he trying to raise?
And you there on the front row! PAY ATTENTION!



It would appear we can have a discussion about masturbation but not post a cartoon about it .. .
ho hum . . .

Never mind Roswitha. Perhaps next time you may be more successful posting a link.

Take care Handsom, your perfume post may be at risk.


Hey somebody put the cartoon back in!

300.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:45 pm

PT, it's not the forum's fault but the link's fault. Click on the alternative link Rosie gave before posting the cartoon. It is dead. Maybe there are some maintenance work on that server, or the site no longer exists. Admins didn't censor the cartoon

301.       libralady
5152 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:50 pm

Quoting lady in red:

Quoting libralady:

Well I think I need a lie down now after reading all this! Hope you are all at peace with one another now that you have gone thorugh therapy in such a deep and meaningful fashion! 26 pages from one poem - Handsom you win the Golden Globe for the longest thread in March lol



Haha! I've been offline for 4 days and just finished reading my way throught the entire thread!! War and Peace anyone?



War and peace it is!

302.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:59 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

PT, it's not the forum's fault but the link's fault. Click on the alternative link Rosie gave before posting the cartoon. It is dead. Maybe there are some maintenance work on that server, or the site no longer exists. Admins didn't censor the cartoon



Oops . . . I told you before I am a technopleb.

Sorry admin

(See Peace Train slip silently into the corner, chin on chest)

303.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 04:17 pm

Canlı, where did you get the idea that I am christian? I do not ask you to respect the Holy Bible, because I am just as non-Muslim as I am non-Christian. I dont follow any religion, and now that I am reading the holy books I have found for myself that I have made the right decision in that.

Anyway, sorry that I misunderstood you about the personal thing. Apology accepted

304.       janissary
0 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 04:27 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Canlı, where did you get the idea that I am christian? I do not ask you to respect the Holy Bible, because I am just as non-Muslim as I am non-Christian. I dont follow any religion, and now that I am reading the holy books I have found for myself that I have made the right decision in that.

Anyway, sorry that I misunderstood you about the personal thing. Apology accepted



do you believe in UFOs? have u ever read about "Cübbeli Ahmet Hoca"??? he is my favourite.

btw, how did u come to this subject from Erotizma? I couldnt follow after "handsom, masturbation and dinner time" thing lol

305.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 04:39 pm

Peacetrain, just some notes

1. Nice to meet you too You seem to know my motives and personality very well, yet we have never really spoken!
2. My question to Canlı was genuine. It was not emotionless, but I never meant it provocative, so I hope that Canlı will read this too. I just wanted to know how she felt about it and maybe she could tell me some reasons for rejection that I havent thought about.
3. We are all aware of the fact that religious and political discussions are not allowed. However, we are also all aware of thef act that they just emerge and we all take part in it. Threads dont get closed down untill some members are really offended, disrespected or rude and respectless themselves.
4. Never meant to be respectless, but have to say I dont agree that I actually was.


DK

306.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 09:04 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Canlı, where did you get the idea that I am christian?



Actually,i didnt,i was talking generally,not personally,and when i addressed you personally,i used ''your holly book'' because i didnt know which is yours

Quoting CANLI:

he should offer same to your holly book too



İf you have one or not ,either way you surely deserve people to respect your choice of believing .

Quoting Deli_kizin:



2. My question to Canlı was genuine. It was not emotionless, but I never meant it provocative, so I hope that Canlı will read this too. I just wanted to know how she felt about it and maybe she could tell me some reasons for rejection that I havent thought about.

DK



Much clearer now

307.       alameda
3499 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 10:11 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

I don't know about you, but I got bored with going through the same thing over and over again.



Yes, it's getting very tedious.

Quoting Daydreamer:

.............. Still, I am willing to take your date as true for the sake of this argument. 1951 is almost 60 years ago - that's over two generations back. Not that I'm defending Christianity - I rejected it years ago.



Well Daydreamer, that is really a matter of opinion. May I point out that to trivialize the fact that Witchcraft persecutions ended 60 years ago ignores the fact that is still in LIVING memory. IOW those who lived through that are still alive and making their contribution to world events, based on their experience. .....and they have been doing so for the last 60 years. Think about that. May I add to that the fact there are still some rather odd people in positions of power who have some strange ideas like: John Hagee who heads the leading Christian Zionist organization, Christians United for Israel (CUFI). and has just endorsed Presidential candidate John McCain.

McCain's Very Own Farrakhan

for more on just who John Hagee is:

John Hagee

Quoting Daydreamer:

US delegation in USSR during the years of communism. They ask their hosts how is it that people are devoid of their rights, have nothing to eat, shops are empty, people get sent to gulags (camps) in Siberia for telling jokes and still the people don't rebel against it. In reply the USSR official says "And you beat black people in USA" (I didn't say it was a particularly funny one )



...and some justified that as the result blacks suffering from the curse of Ham and thus claimed they deserved to be treated badly....sigh..

Quoting Daydreamer:

Oh, and thanks for the sites you typed. But I am not THAT interested in Islam. I went through it back in the days when I was trying to see if only Catholicism is not for me. I discovered that if I were to choose a religion Islam would be my last choice. But that is my personal opinion.



Choose a religion of none, I am not offering an opinion on your spiritual choice, however I don't feel it's appropriate to belittle and demean others choices. I have not seen any Muslims here proselytizing, but I have seen a lot of anti Islamic rhetoric.

Quoting Daydreamer:

Anyway, I wrote the initial post only because some members were whining that only atheists and free-thinkers were welcome to this site, which I reckon not true.



It was I who made that post based on an analysis of posts here. Calling my comment a whine is an attempt to trivialize and dismiss an observation. All one has to do is go through the endless posts on the matter, do a statistical analysis and that see the result.

I think we are both actually in agreement, I don't want religion or forced on me, and you don't want it forced on you. One's spiritual choices are deeply personal and must be freely made, if they are to be valid. I posted the links so as to enable anyone who actually wants those type of discussions to find an appropriate outlet.

What I do object to is any type religious bullying. The world has had enough of that. Looking at your profile and your relationship with Ireland (with it's Catholic/Protestant issues) you must be aware of these issues.

Religious Bullying

308.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 10:20 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Peacetrain, just some notes

1. Nice to meet you too You seem to know my motives and personality very well, yet we have never really spoken!
2. My question to Canlı was genuine. It was not emotionless, but I never meant it provocative, so I hope that Canlı will read this too. I just wanted to know how she felt about it and maybe she could tell me some reasons for rejection that I havent thought about.
3. We are all aware of the fact that religious and political discussions are not allowed. However, we are also all aware of thef act that they just emerge and we all take part in it. Threads dont get closed down untill some members are really offended, disrespected or rude and respectless themselves.
4. Never meant to be respectless, but have to say I dont agree that I actually was.


DK



DK, Just some notes on your notes

1. P
The pleasure's all yours There's so much of what has seemed like subtle engineering of debates been going on in the past . . . I easily get suspicious of people's motives

2. see No. 1 but I'll trust you on that one, as I've never met you before

3. Yeah , I know. Quite a few people on this site, from all different religious and political backgrounds have said how they're fed up of covering the same ground. I really do think we should all agree to take it upon ourselves to step in if we see something heating up. I already suggested we can shout "fluffy bunnies" or "turkish delight"

4. See 2.

Take care

PT

309.       adonis
0 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 10:32 pm

I wanna give a surah from Quran for not-believers and the people who always have prejudices about Islam and insult it.

Those Who Reject Faith (Al-Káfirün)

This chapter has 6 verses.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2. I worship not that which ye worship,

3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

6. To you be your Way, and to me mine

310.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 12:49 am

practice what you preach....!!!! or practice instead of preaching!!!

311.       christine
443 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:09 am

Quoting adonis:

I wanna give a surah from Quran for not-believers and the people who always have prejudices about Islam and insult it.



I am a none believer, but i respect all people and their believes. I don't preach to anyone, so please don't preach to me.

312.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:11 am

Quoting catwoman:

or practice instead of preaching!!!



Yes.. this is actually what I get tired of.. I know more Turks who enjoy a rakı and a smoke, than who dont. Yet they get angry if you think a woman shouldnt be covered 'because it says so in the Quran'. I thought that alcohol was forbidden too. And all those muslims in western countries, that eat sweets with gelatine but wouldnt dare to touch bacon.

Anyway this is just some generalizations that frustrate me They came to mind when you said practice instead of preaching.

313.       adonis
0 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:13 am

I'm not preaching. I'm only giving the doctrine of faith and belief according to the light of Quran.

Consequently, you are only sputtering...

314.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:14 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting catwoman:

or practice instead of preaching!!!



Yes.. this is actually what I get tired of.. I know more Turks who enjoy a rakı and a smoke, than who dont. Yet they get angry if you think a woman shouldnt be covered 'because it says so in the Quran'. I thought that alcohol was forbidden too. And all those muslims in western countries, that eat sweets with gelatine but wouldnt dare to touch bacon.

Anyway this is just some generalizations that frustrate me They came to mind when you said practice instead of preaching.



"Birds of a feather flock together"

315.       CANLI
5084 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:15 am

Quoting christine:

Quoting adonis:

I wanna give a surah from Quran for not-believers and the people who always have prejudices about Islam and insult it.



I am a none believer, but i respect all people and their believes. I don't preach to anyone, so please don't preach to me.



But dont you see,You do ...
You actually doing it
You are trying to show us how to be good Muslims
And how to apply OUR religion in an acceptable way...
Review all the posts about İslam,and you will see that
You are Reteaching us OUR religion

Ps:for the note ''You'' is generally speaking

316.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:17 am

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting christine:

Quoting adonis:

I wanna give a surah from Quran for not-believers and the people who always have prejudices about Islam and insult it.



I am a none believer, but i respect all people and their believes. I don't preach to anyone, so please don't preach to me.



But dont you see,You do ...
You actually doing it
You are trying to show us how to be good Muslims
And how to apply OUR religion in an acceptable way...
Review all the posts about İslam,and you will see that
You are Reteaching us OUR religion

Ps:for the note ''You'' is generally speaking



+1001

317.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:17 am

Quoting alameda:

"Birds of a feather flock together"


how nicely you dismissed everything we said and then you go on saying "show us empathy!" this is ridiculous.

318.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:21 am

Quoting adonis:

people who always have prejudices about Islam and insult it.




Just as a general statement:

Everybody has prejudice about something, but I can say that I am studying Islam at university and I am currently reading Quran. I am trying to understand this complex religion and get rid of prejudice.

I have never intended to insult Islam. Not agreeing with someone, doesnt mean you insult someone. If you wear a sweater and I tell you its not my style, that I wouldnt have bought it, its not an ınsult. An insult is merely defined by the person who takes it.

The reason that these discussions go nowhere, is because 'my' answers are rational, 'yours' are divine. These two cant be combined. Yet, I hope that the believers of the future will follow in both heart and mind!

319.       adonis
0 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:34 am

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting christine:

Quoting adonis:

I wanna give a surah from Quran for not-believers and the people who always have prejudices about Islam and insult it.



I am a none believer, but i respect all people and their believes. I don't preach to anyone, so please don't preach to me.



But dont you see,You do ...
You actually doing it
You are trying to show us how to be good Muslims
And how to apply OUR religion in an acceptable way...
Review all the posts about İslam,and you will see that
You are Reteaching us OUR religion

Ps:for the note ''You'' is generally speaking



PERFECT!!!

320.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:39 am

I understand what your saying Christine and in the spirit of the rules of this site, you are right. However, you are behind the times . . there's loads of preachers on this site now !!!!!

We've got, now . . . let me see. . .hmm

>feminist preachers
>prejudiced preachers (from all over the ball park I might add)
>Nationalist preachers
>sexist preachers
>contrary preachers
>sarcastic preachers
>religious preachers
>atheist preachers
>agnostic preachers
>bitter preachers
>vulgar preachers
>hypocritical preachers
>menopausal (male and female . . . didn't want to exclude handsom )
>boring preachers
>bored preachers

(watch Peace Train pause for breath)

>provocative preachers
>propaganda preachers
>sex mad preachers
>don't do as I do but do as I say preachers
>sensible preachers
>ignorant preachers
>space cadet preachers
>ridiculous preachers
>empathetic preachers

(peace Train takes 5 for water intake)

>rigid thinking preachers
>fence sitter preachers
>vigorous preachers
>gentle preachers
>vitriolic preachers
>sympathetic preachers
>cream bun preachers
>ex Rod Stewart Fan preachers
>double standards preachers
>highly strung preachers
>fantasizing preachers
>realist preachers

(zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Peace Train . . WAKE UP !)

>Outlandish preachers
>peace preachers
>defensive preachers
>'Frankly' preachers
>hairy preachers
>'only I know the truth' preachers
>Young Turk preachers
>Old Turk preachers
>'the fact is . . .' preachers
>silence equals agreement preachers
>mischief making preachers

And my personal favourite:

>THE ONE AND ONLY Sanctimonious Preacher!

I'm sure I missed some out . . .

321.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:43 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting catwoman:

or practice instead of preaching!!!



Yes.. this is actually what I get tired of.. I know more Turks who enjoy a rakı and a smoke, than who dont. Yet they get angry if you think a woman shouldnt be covered 'because it says so in the Quran'. I thought that alcohol was forbidden too. And all those muslims in western countries, that eat sweets with gelatine but wouldnt dare to touch bacon.

Anyway this is just some generalizations that frustrate me They came to mind when you said practice instead of preaching.



There are very many sweets in the west that do not contain gelatin but pectin which is not an animal derivative. Many manufacturers are now making the 'gummy' type sweets without the gelatin . . not just for muslims but for vegetarians. I remember posting a very long list of sweets a while back.

322.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:46 am

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting christine:

Quoting adonis:

I wanna give a surah from Quran for not-believers and the people who always have prejudices about Islam and insult it.



I am a none believer, but i respect all people and their believes. I don't preach to anyone, so please don't preach to me.



But dont you see,You do ...
You actually doing it
You are trying to show us how to be good Muslims
And how to apply OUR religion in an acceptable way...
Review all the posts about İslam,and you will see that
You are Reteaching us OUR religion

Ps:for the note ''You'' is generally speaking




+ 1111111111111111111111111

323.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:46 am

Quoting peace train:


There are very many sweets in the west that do not contain gelatin but pectin which is not an animal derivative. Many manufacturers are now making the 'gummy' type sweets without the gelatin . . not just for muslims but for vegetarians. I remember posting a very long list of sweets a while back.




Yes you are right, but the market is still not that strong. Even Magnum icecream in Holland contains forbidden ingredients. Actually Ill be happy to eat sweets without gelatine, relaly dont like the idea of pig in my sweets

324.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:49 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

"Birds of a feather flock together"


how nicely you dismissed everything we said and then you go on saying "show us empathy!" this is ridiculous.



Hey Catwoman . . . I think it was me who mentioned "empathy" but did I use the word "us"? hm m m not sure.. Maybe Alameda did too, if she did, I apologise.

oooh just going to modify my preacher list . . . >ridiculous preachers

325.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:58 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting adonis:

people who always have prejudices about Islam and insult it.




Just as a general statement:

Everybody has prejudice about something, but I can say that I am studying Islam at university and I am currently reading Quran. I am trying to understand this complex religion and get rid of prejudice.

I have never intended to insult Islam. Not agreeing with someone, doesnt mean you insult someone. If you wear a sweater and I tell you its not my style, that I wouldnt have bought it, its not an ınsult. An insult is merely defined by the person who takes it.

The reason that these discussions go nowhere, is because 'my' answers are rational, 'yours' are divine. These two cant be combined. Yet, I hope that the believers of the future will follow in both heart and mind!



You certainly have a point DK but there have been and are still some people who would look at that jumper and say things like:

"uugh you have such bad taste in clothes"

"I wouldn't be seen dead in that!"

"And you think you're a fashion icon? And the rest!"

The jumper example you gave is not insulting. The ones I gave ARE. The speaker may not be calling the wearer names but he/she is still being insulting.

Thank you DK

326.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 02:04 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting peace train:


There are very many sweets in the west that do not contain gelatin but pectin which is not an animal derivative. Many manufacturers are now making the 'gummy' type sweets without the gelatin . . not just for muslims but for vegetarians. I remember posting a very long list of sweets a while back.




Yes you are right, but the market is still not that strong. Even Magnum icecream in Holland contains forbidden ingredients. Actually Ill be happy to eat sweets without gelatine, relaly dont like the idea of pig in my sweets



We have no bed piggy magnum, sweety eaters in my town

327.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 02:10 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

"Birds of a feather flock together"


how nicely you dismissed everything we said and then you go on saying "show us empathy!" this is ridiculous.



Are you sure I said that catwoman? If so, what was the context?

...and it also seems to me you have dismissed most of what I've said also. I seem to remember after I said

"Yes, and most see only the only rocks and never the diamonds..."

Your response was:

Oh please! You're simply in denial of the truth.

328.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 09 Mar 2008 Sun 03:03 pm

Hanci - Ajda Pekkan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKQXstA9ys0&feature=related

ENRİCO MACİAS'IN MÃœKEMMEL OLYMPİA KONSERİ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDor2sOUpOc&feature=related

329.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 01:31 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:




Just as a general statement:

Everybody has prejudice about something, but I can say that I am studying Islam at university and I am currently reading Quran. I am trying to understand this complex religion and get rid of prejudice.

I have never intended to insult Islam. Not agreeing with someone, doesnt mean you insult someone. If you wear a sweater and I tell you its not my style, that I wouldnt have bought it, its not an ınsult. An insult is merely defined by the person who takes it.

The reason that these discussions go nowhere, is because 'my' answers are rational, 'yours' are divine. These two cant be combined. Yet, I hope that the believers of the future will follow in both heart and mind!



+ 1

330.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 01:56 pm

Quoting alameda:



Well Daydreamer, that is really a matter of opinion. May I point out that to trivialize the fact that Witchcraft persecutions ended 60 years ago ignores the fact that is still in LIVING memory.



So, in the same manner, you may want to argue that people from Germany are bad as they are all Nazists. The memory of WW II is still alive in memory, but nobody sane would pass judgements on contemporary Germany basing on what happened over 60 years ago.


Quoting alameda:



...and some justified that as the result blacks suffering from the curse of Ham and thus claimed they deserved to be treated badly....sigh..



You missed the point of my joke! It's easy to criticise others ignoring the bad things going on in your own backyard. Has anyone said here that Western countries are absolutely perfect? No crimes? No poverty? I, among others, have repeatedly stated that West is far from ideal. But I do think that people are freer here than in Muslim states.


Quote:

Choose a religion of none, I am not offering an opinion on your spiritual choice, however I don't feel it's appropriate to belittle and demean others choices. I have not seen any Muslims here proselytizing, but I have seen a lot of anti Islamic rhetoric.



I have never intended to belittle or demean any religion. I think they do it themselves by exploiting and abusing their followers. But I do agree - everyone has the right to choose their own religion. Just as it is my right to comment on certain social issues that derive from religious norms. If somebody wishes to become a Satanist, it is his/her choice. But if his religion permits to kill somebody, it is my right or even responsibility to express my disagreement. If Catholics decide that religion should be taught at schools - protesting against it has nothing to do with demeaning this religion, it is simply a personal opinion. If Muslims treat women in a manner I disagree with, stating it does not make me belittle Islam, does it?


Quote:

It was I who made that post based on an analysis of posts here. Calling my comment a whine is an attempt to trivialize and dismiss an observation.



I apologise if you felt insulted by the word "whine." But I do feel your observation was an exaggeration. It is those you call atheists, free-thinkers who are constantly insulted in this site. Muslims are treated with respect. I haven't noticed any of "you are stupid because I know better" attitude that some of this "oppressed" group of Muslims and nationalists present.

Quote:

I think we are both actually in agreement, I don't want religion or forced on me, and you don't want it forced on you. One's spiritual choices are deeply personal and must be freely made, if they are to be valid. I posted the links so as to enable anyone who actually wants those type of discussions to find an appropriate outlet.

What I do object to is any type religious bullying. The world has had enough of that.



Exactly, we agree about this one in 100%

Quote:

Looking at your profile and your relationship with Ireland (with it's Catholic/Protestant issues) you must be aware of these issues.

Religious Bullying



I'm not Irish, I'm a Polish immigrant to Ireland. I have no idea what it has been here like before. But I assure you, no religious bullying or hate is present. Catholics, Protestants and other religions co-exist peacefully.

331.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 07:24 pm

I still can't get over the whole kitten on his lap thing!

332.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 08:50 pm

I thought you would like this Handsome,quite appropriate!!

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nicolas_Tassaert-Die_eifers%C3%BCchtige_Katze.jpg

Enjoy!

333.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 08:57 pm

Quoting SERA_2005:

I thought you would like this Handsome,quite appropriate!!

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nicolas_Tassaert-Die_eifers%C3%BCchtige_Katze.jpg

Enjoy!


haha..it is funny..lol

334.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 08:59 pm

I thought so and rather ironic.I got it from a little bird,she knows who she is!

335.       geniuda
1070 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 08:59 pm

Quoting SERA_2005:

I thought you would like this Handsome,quite appropriate!!

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nicolas_Tassaert-Die_eifers%C3%BCchtige_Katze.jpg

Enjoy!


lol lol lol

336.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 09:00 pm

I know how rude although from the look on the womans face she isnt really bothered either way lol

337.       teaschip
3870 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 09:15 pm

Quoting Roswitha:

for the handsome




Aww, how sweet...

338.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 09:17 pm

Teaschip, who is cuddling with him?

339.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 09:29 pm

Quoting Roswitha:

Teaschip, who is cuddling with him?


I am wondering that too!!

340.       teaschip
3870 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 09:30 pm

Quoting Roswitha:

Teaschip, who is cuddling with him?



I plead the fifth on this one... lol

341.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 09:34 pm

an uninvited cat thehandsome did not expect

342.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 10:17 pm

i am not sure who he is cuddling with but who ever it is thank goodness its the same 'person' as in the picture next to them so at least he is not a dudu!!

343.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 10:22 pm

Oh,what a revelation!

344.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 10 Mar 2008 Mon 10:25 pm

I know i am sure he will also be shocked! lol

345.       alameda
3499 posts
 11 Mar 2008 Tue 09:09 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

So, in the same manner, you may want to argue that people from Germany are bad as they are all Nazists. The memory of WW II is still alive in memory, but nobody sane would pass judgements on contemporary Germany basing on what happened over 60 years ago.



That is not what I said, I said those who hold ideas are still alive and exerting their influence. Maybe you have noticed the many Neo Nazi groups that proliferate today?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism

Quoting Daydreamer:

I have never intended to belittle or demean any religion. I think they do it themselves by exploiting and abusing their followers. But I do agree - everyone has the right to choose their own religion. Just as it is my right to comment on certain social issues that derive from religious norms. If somebody wishes to become a Satanist, it is his/her choice. But if his religion permits to kill somebody, it is my right or even responsibility to express my disagreement. If Catholics decide that religion should be taught at schools - protesting against it has nothing to do with demeaning this religion, it is simply a personal opinion. If Muslims treat women in a manner I disagree with, stating it does not make me belittle Islam, does it?



It's the assumption that treating women badly is a part of the Islamic religion that I object to. It is a popular myth that is not supported by Islam. While it is true in some Islamic countries women are not treated well, but it is not because of Islam, it is in spite of Islam. which does not condone maltreatment ot women. Actually in Islam women have many more rights than in other mainstream religions.

Most do not really understand the deeper principles of many religions as they only take the superficial view of them. In fact many people have no interest in religion at all.

You may not read this, it give you another view and be informative if you did. I respect this woman a great deal. She gives some wise, educated and informed insite into the situation of women in Islamic societies today.

http://www.religiousconsultation.org/hassan2.htm#six


Quoting Daydreamer:

I'm not Irish, I'm a Polish immigrant to Ireland. I have no idea what it has been here like before. But I assure you, no religious bullying or hate is present. Catholics, Protestants and other religions co-exist peacefully.



I realize you are not Irish. I guess you are in lower Ireland and unaware of what is happening in Northern Ireland?

"Between 1966 and 1999 a total of 3,636 people were killed and 36,000 injured as the conflict spread beyond Northern Ireland's borders onto the British mainland and elsewhere. Most of the victims were innocent civilians. "

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/n.ireland/overview.html

Irish Republican Army (IRA)

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ira.htm

346.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 12 Mar 2008 Wed 11:21 am

Quoting alameda:



That is not what I said, I said those who hold ideas are still alive and exerting their influence. Maybe you have noticed the many Neo Nazi groups that proliferate today?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism



I spent most of my youth with those Neo-Nazists. Trust me, they are just thugs who have little knowledge of why they're doing it. Media exaggerates their image a great deal. There are this kind of people who found a reason to justify their violence. That's all. However, they aren't even half as lethal as suicide bombers who claim to be Muslims. So I find your comparison not really in place. As for the witchcraft, let me quote you:

Quote:

Witchcraft persecutions ended 60 years ago ignores the fact that is still in LIVING memory. IOW those who lived through that are still alive and making their contribution to world events, based on their experience. .....and they have been doing so for the last 60 years.



I've already told you that witchcraft persecutions ended over 100 years ago. Those incidents you point to are just singled out actions of villagers and have nothing to do with the real witch hunt. If you want, you may find hundreds of 'I was raped by a werewolf' or 'Elvis lives' kinds of stories. There is a difference between a public lynch and an organized, institutionalised with hunt. Do understand it.


Quote:

It's the assumption that treating women badly is a part of the Islamic religion that I object to. It is a popular myth that is not supported by Islam. While it is true in some Islamic countries women are not treated well, but it is not because of Islam, it is in spite of Islam. which does not condone maltreatment ot women. Actually in Islam women have many more rights than in other mainstream religions.



Canli has already explained this one and I have commented saying that it is exactly what I hold against Islam - that it does nothing to help those women. Other religions may grant less rights to women but women in non-Muslim states have more rights. Islam might be granting more rights to women - but women in Islamic countries have less rights. We all agreed on this one. I have no idea what Quran advises, my only sources are what I read. I have no reasons not to believe Canli about what she said. But I have also read people who gave sources justifying beating women. I am not arguing theological grounds but social ones.

Quote:

Most do not really understand the deeper principles of many religions as they only take the superficial view of them. In fact many people have no interest in religion at all.



Exactly! But try and tell a suicide bomber that he misses the point of his religion. Tell it to the father that kills his raped daughter. If Christians miss the point of their religion, they stop going to church, if Muslims miss the point - they kill. That's the difference I was talking about.


Quote:

I realize you are not Irish. I guess you are in lower Ireland and unaware of what is happening in Northern Ireland?



Actually I am 15km away from the border with Northern Ireland (in ULster) so right where the clash should be if there was any. IRA was not mainly about religion. I'm sure you know that the Brits were occupying Ireland for 800 years. IRA is not a means of promoting Catholicism, it is a group fighting for Irish independence from Britain. When Ireland got divided into UK-governed part and independent one, many people didn't like it as they thought the whole island should be free. It's true that Brits are mainly protestant and the Irish mainly Catholic, but it wasn't a religious war. It was a fight for freedom.

347.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 13 Mar 2008 Thu 01:09 am

I have uploaded the poem. I combined the translations of thehandsom and vineyards according to own thoughts. Hope you are content with the result.

348.       vineyards
1954 posts
 15 Mar 2008 Sat 06:23 am

I don't know what Thehandsome thinks but I certainly do not appreciate the poem collage combining his and my versions. Anything concerning poetry is highly personal and emotional, it is not something you can mix with others to produce a better version. I would say, it resembles a letter sent to a beloved person. It is highly private in essence but equally universal in scope. The reader gets only what is available to him/her, the final product. He/she is not expected to get involved in the making of it.

349.       karpusqueen
0 posts
 15 Mar 2008 Sat 02:22 pm

Quoting vineyards:

I don't know what Thehandsome thinks but I certainly do not appreciate the poem collage combining his and my versions. Anything concerning poetry is highly personal and emotional, it is not something you can mix with others to produce a better version. I would say, it resembles a letter sent to a beloved person. It is highly private in essence but equally universal in scope. The reader gets only what is available to him/her, the final product. He/she is not expected to get involved in the making of it.



I agree.

"ear hole" - I think the two translations got "murdered". I'm sure she meant well but perhaps she should have shown you her work first.

350.       aiça
posts
 15 Mar 2008 Sat 06:38 pm

Quoting vineyards:

I don't know what Thehandsome thinks but I certainly do not appreciate the poem collage combining his and my versions. Anything concerning poetry is highly personal and emotional, it is not something you can mix with others to produce a better version. I would say, it resembles a letter sent to a beloved person. It is highly private in essence but equally universal in scope. The reader gets only what is available to him/her, the final product. He/she is not expected to get involved in the making of it.



When Deli_kızın asked for your opinion on oploading your both translation into the poems section, I was actually expecting she would just add both of them side to side...

I didn't like the result, as both are very different translations, different in style, in language, in feeling, in perception and understanding... I saw them both as individual new poems... now they are torn apart... they don't combine...

I would just like to see the poem there with your both translations, enterely.

351.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 15 Mar 2008 Sat 09:03 pm

Okey thank you for your suggestion. I shall delete the poem and upload two different versions

(Since im 'official' on holiday, this may take a few days. My apologies for the inconvience)

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