Turkish Poetry and Literature |
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EROTIZMA-CAN YÜCEL
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| 170. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 11:11 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Ok canim, you have your point and I have mine  I see what you mean, but I am sensitive to male objectification of women. On top of that, I could never interpret poetry correctly!   |
point taken 
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| 171. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 12:25 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: Quoting alameda:
If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.
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I'm afraid this is true... |
+1000
You ask them to be open minded and to accept other people point of views and traditions,or way of life,but you simply dont accept theirs !
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| 172. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:25 pm |
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Canli, with all due respect. None of us - atheists feels offended if believers question his/her choice. It is exactly the opposite with you. If we ask questions about your religion and draw conclusions you don't like, you start insulting us (I don't mean "you" personally). Some members seem to have the approach saying - either admire us or get lost. This is not very fair either, is it?
I do agree some members calling themselves "free thinkers" were pushing it and acted improperly. But it is hard to stay indifferent to sites like this:
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?name=News&file=article&sid=2378
Let me quote just a tiny fragment:
"A girl was brutally murdered by her father on suspicion of her character Monday. The father chopped the body and interred it without a proper burial ceremony.
Her alleged paramour escaped the area to save his life. The accused Pandi Jatoi used an axe to cut the body into pieces. The girl cried and tried to prove her innocence by holding the Holy Quran. The father was wanted to kill her paramour but the youth managed to flee.
On being contacted by The Post, the police expressed their ignorance about the incident. However, some sources in the police confirmed that their colleagues were deliberately concealing the matter."
When we express our disgust with a religion that allows such things to happen, you take it as an attack on Islam. I have met many Muslim in my life, some of my best friends are Muslim, and they openly admit they abhor such incidents and believe there's plenty of things to change in Islam. Here at this site, the loudest-speaking Muslims instantly tell us not to dig out the dirt in a backyard that doesn't belong to us or immediately start to talk about Inquisition. They fail to see the difference between past and now. It's easy to call us ignorants who have no right to speak about subjects we don't know. But what is there to know? A woman (more than one) died, and the religion you say to be yours allows to account for it. Don't demand that we respect a religion allowing people to kill others
It's not that we have a problem with Muslims - we don't. Personally, I don't care if you cover your head, face, toes or neck. I don't care if you pray sitting, kneeling, lying or walking. Why should I? It is your free will and choice. But I care if you tell me honour killings are good and if you justify women's submissiveness saying it's their character. It is not. It is the upbringing that limits them.
Regards
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| 173. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:44 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: And another group insults women . . . women.
And those bullies Alameda mentioned? . . . women.
And the "kindergarten" (Cat's word)activists? . . . women. |
Although I don't understand why you excluded handsom and ciko, this group you are so hatefully, stereotypically and simplistically defining also happens to be a group of open minded, strong, independent, feminist, successful women. And the guys you're defending also happen to be mysogynistic, nationalistic, even sometimes racist, simple minded guys. Why don't you practice what you preach dear? 
In some people's opinions, being a woman, doesn't give you any right! |
Oh dear, you are putting words into my mouth Cat.
I am not defending the guys for their actions. If you read my posts you would know I have given them my opinion personally. Some of the things they said were uncalled for.
Because I think men are not the only guilty parties on this site does not mean I am anti feminism.
I didn't mention ANY names.
Hateful? Sorry you've lost me.
Unfortunately some women on this site DO stereotype themselves.
quote
" a group of open minded, strong, independent, feminist, successful women."
Do they have to be feminist to be the rest of the above?
Does it mean they never indulge in "kindergarten" behaviour?
I dispute they are all open minded. Depends what they wish to open their minds to.
Having all the qualities you mention does not give a woman carte blanche.
I would say there are varying degrees of feminism but you don't seem to be able to accept this Cat. You seem intolerant of any view on feminism that does not fit exactly the pattern you have cut for it. Points of view are so much more colourful than the black or white views you demand from people Cat. I would say your views on feminism are rather more simplistic than mine.
Did you ever notice there is neither black nor white in a rainbow?
What happened on this thread:
A bored (by his own admission on another thread) member decided to post a poem.
Another male member wondered about his choice.
A few members discussed the technical and creative aspects of the poem.
The poem provoked a feminist.
The poem provoked discussion about its suitability for this site.
A female member was extremely sarcastic to and critical of (both her choice of words) another female member, for absolutely no reason.
A male member decided to reproach a female member for her unwarranted unkindness towards another female.
A heated discussion ensued.
A female member was spoken to in an undesirable and inappropriate way by a male.
Discussions on feminism ensue.
Original male member is no longer bored with his day.
Women have been around long enough to learn how to deal with name calling and insults, from men, in a virtual environment such as this without using the feminist card every time. They can be strong, independent and successful (your words)in the way they deal with such behaviour, without jumping on the feminist soap box. Some have already proved they are more subtle than men in their approach to offending women, why don't they turn this subtlty on the offensive men?
You don't seem to have grasped the idea that once a person uses disgusting language in an argument, that argument is lost for them. Their words are there for everyone to read, they dig their own graves. You have no need to shriek foul play in the name of feminism.
Jumping on the soap box and using the feminist card at the slightest wiff of an ignorant insult merely increases the stereotypical notion of what a feminist is.
Sometimes "feminists" on this site shoot themselves in the foot.
Being "strong" (your word) doesn't mean having rigidity of thought.
You can make more of this if you like Catwoman. I am clear in my own mind that I am not a feminist hater, I simply cringe sometimes when I read some of the "feminist" rhetoric (or rant ?)because it doesn't do anything positive for the cause of women.
Where do you think some men on this site get the notion there is a group of menopausal, ageing, stay at home women on this site?
Thanks for the discussion . . . always a pleasure, never a chore
p.s. Is there such a thing as a female mysogynist?
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| 174. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:45 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: Twice today you have wielded the "dreaded" delete threat. Why in public? Everyone knows you have admin powers. I would have thought a PM was more appropriate and would garner more respect from the recipient. Respect seems to be what you crave. |
Canim, you are completely wrong about me and I don't remember confessing my cravings to you. You may disagree with what I say or do, but I don't see anything wrong with it. I warned Dr Treatment and adonis publicly - nothing wrong with that! They really need to learn how to disagree in a civilized way if they want to participate in conversations. I am yet to hear their arguments being stated in a reasonable way without any extra insults and denigration. |
Catwoman as I wrote here Last night, First Somebody should warn you... Your fault is bigger than us... Learn how to use admin power...
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| 175. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:49 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: Me thinks you are after my crown as the Queen of Sanctimony.
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Look, nobody is a saint and everybody tries their best. You've had your moments too dear! Don't try to justify some people's behavior because those who accuse them aren't spotless clean either. Yes, in almost every conflict both sides carry some guilt. You seem to completely overlook one side here though..
No, the crown is yours, I'll find my own! |
I already included myself in everything I said.
I haven't overlooked any side, I'm trying to give some balance to the discussion.
I have an idea about that crown . . .
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| 176. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:51 pm |
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Quoting Leelu: wow!!! I missed a lot on this thread .. I has to go back and start reading it from the beginning .. .. |
Enjoy!!!
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| 177. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 01:56 pm |
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Quoting teaschip1: Quoting alameda: Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: Quoting catwoman: Adonis, do you need a separate warning, or will you learn as adonis2? |
Common practice of some users . . . wind 'em up then bleat delete.
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Oh, right... now it's my fault that I "wind 'em up"  |
Catwoman, as the url for this site is turkishclass.com, you can't be upset when people from the culture named protest when they think their culture is being misrepresented or disparaged in some way. You can not appropriate the name of a people and not expect protest when you disparage their culture.
Certainly we have seen some very rude behavior from members here, who were not deleted....The fact of the matter is GG seems to follow my posts and make rude comments on whatever I say. I have ignored it..but you don't say anything about that behavior.
I've seen many young men come here and get upset by what they see. They don't have a great command of English, the idiom used in US English. They are also not at all used to such frontal attacks on what they see as the honor of their country.
If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.
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How hyprocritical are you Alameda.. Seriously, how many posts of mine have you done this too. Your calling the kettle black if you feel GG follows your posts. And Peacetrain you make me so sick..that you believe that your behavior is above the rest of the members here. I have seen your posts and to be quite frank, I thought you were really loosing it a few weeks ago, with all of this bickering with being deleted and public display of aggression with Aenigma. It was quite a show you led. So, you have your opinions which you certainly have a right too. But in the future some of your arguments would hold more validity, if you also choose to lead by example. Which I think you fail to do at times. |
Ho Hum . . . read my words. I included myself in the mix. I am no saint. That is one of my points, some people think they can say whatever they like and not be criticised or made fun of for it. That's not a very realistic or fair attitude. I'm not preaching, I'm giving my opinion. Thanks for yours.
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| 178. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:07 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: Quoting alameda:
If someone is an agnostic, atheist, free thinker they are welcomed, but if they are Muslim or a traditional Turk, they are belittled and insulted by a group here who are bullies.
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I'm afraid this is true... |
Thank you Keith.
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| 179. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:11 pm |
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Quoting Daydreamer: Sorry for cutting into that interesting discussion you were having here about who is better than others. I'd like to go back to the original post - the poem. I have no idea how people can judge it as sexist. If you take into consideration the fact that this is a man having erotic thoughts of a woman then what's wrong with that? Can't men desire women? Would it be better if he claimed to love another guy? Or a fruit? He didn't mean one particular woman here, did he? He wasn't praising the love of his life. He was having sexual fantasies. Come on feminists, if you claim that, having dirty thoughts, it is the male brain that stimulates you, you're lying
Poetry, especially the good one, gives right to express oneself. To amaze, to name what others cannot. Labelling it as "sexist" would mean censoring erotic poetry, and that's a violation of poets' rights. Besides, if you read erotic female poetry, the basis is the same. They write about bodies. Not brains. |
I always enjoy reading your posts Daydreamer. They are always well thought out. 
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| 180. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 02:33 pm |
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Quoting Daydreamer: Canli, with all due respect. None of us - atheists feels offended if believers question his/her choice. It is exactly the opposite with you. If we ask questions about your religion and draw conclusions you don't like, you start insulting us (I don't mean "you" personally). Some members seem to have the approach saying - either admire us or get lost. This is not very fair either, is it?
I do agree some members calling themselves "free thinkers" were pushing it and acted improperly. But it is hard to stay indifferent to sites like this:
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?name=News&file=article&sid=2378
Let me quote just a tiny fragment:
"A girl was brutally murdered by her father on suspicion of her character Monday. The father chopped the body and interred it without a proper burial ceremony.
Her alleged paramour escaped the area to save his life. The accused Pandi Jatoi used an axe to cut the body into pieces. The girl cried and tried to prove her innocence by holding the Holy Quran. The father was wanted to kill her paramour but the youth managed to flee.
On being contacted by The Post, the police expressed their ignorance about the incident. However, some sources in the police confirmed that their colleagues were deliberately concealing the matter."
When we express our disgust with a religion that allows such things to happen, you take it as an attack on Islam. I have met many Muslim in my life, some of my best friends are Muslim, and they openly admit they abhor such incidents and believe there's plenty of things to change in Islam. Here at this site, the loudest-speaking Muslims instantly tell us not to dig out the dirt in a backyard that doesn't belong to us or immediately start to talk about Inquisition. They fail to see the difference between past and now. It's easy to call us ignorants who have no right to speak about subjects we don't know. But what is there to know? A woman (more than one) died, and the religion you say to be yours allows to account for it. Don't demand that we respect a religion allowing people to kill others
It's not that we have a problem with Muslims - we don't. Personally, I don't care if you cover your head, face, toes or neck. I don't care if you pray sitting, kneeling, lying or walking. Why should I? It is your free will and choice. But I care if you tell me honour killings are good and if you justify women's submissiveness saying it's their character. It is not. It is the upbringing that limits them.
Regards |
Daydreamer,
İ wont start a discussion about religion here,nor about İslam,because actually i had enough about it here
but of course yes,i excepect you 'i dont mean you personally ' to respect my religion even if you dont agree with it
As we respect other religions too which of course we dont agree with them also,but it called mutual respect,and it should be in normal relation between people
Not just deep relations,but it should be among human
Respect me,pespect my believes,respect my ideas,my opinions, even if you dont agree with them.
As i also should do same with you..
And we both have the right to point out our disagreement too
We dont feel offended when you QUESTİON our believes too,but there is much difference between QUESTİONİNG our believes and expressing your DİSGUST of our religion !
To express you DİSGUST with my religion ,im afraid that mean you attack it yes..
Disgust is a big word,and it doesnt come with respect...so dont expect me 'not just me ,i mean Muslims' to feel its ok to accept people not respecting our religion.
İslam doesnt allow people to kill others as you indicate.
İf you want to indecate such thing,read about it,understand it,search it then make such statment.
Then we have something to talk about if you want,and if you dont,its ok too.
İn Judaism its forbidden to kill ONLY a Jewish,but its OK to kill ANY human being because to Judaism they are dogs not humans !
Do you want me to go through other religions too ?!
You want to point out how do women treated in other religions,do you want to point out how do women takes their husbands names after marriage and lose theirs ?
Do you want to talk about how women be part of the heritage after her husband's death in some religions ?
No,you just see İslam that is all,how how BAD is it,yes ?!
İ NEVER saw any complaining about this anywhere,not in TC nor even in the Media too.
But about İSLAM...ohhh boyyy what such a barbaric religion,you can read about it EVERYWHERE
When a MUSLİM man killes his daughter,then it is İSLAM fault and you feel DİSGUST of such religion, yes ?!
And you say you dont have problem with İslam or Muslims ?!
YES, we ALL can see that !
''again i dont mean you personally''
Actually,i dont have to defend my religion in anyway,its my religion,and im ok with it,and wont change it too,i dont and didnt mind debating about it tho with respect to what i believe and offering same respect to the believes of the others.
İ was refering in my statment to TC here,and how they treat some Turks,and its true im afraid,i saw it,others saw it too.
They attack their believes 'İslam' their traditions,and make jokes about it and complain if Turks didnt take it well !
Some Turk dont have a good grip of English so they cant really reply it as well as they want,and at same time they feel offended so they just leave.
And the ones who have good command of English,and they reply it,they face a union against them,either with sercasm,or with attack,so also eventually they had enough and leave too !
Do you see many Turks here much ?
Now, let me ask you something,
You are complaining about people insult atheists here at TC ?
My dear,review threads and posts,and tell me,you find any insult or attack to ANY religion or believes here at TC except to İslam ?!
Review and be fair about it.
Here at TC most Turks are Muslims,Easterns are Muslims,and most Westerns are Christians,and there are some atheists too.
You would find the only attack,insult is to İslam and no others,and at same time,Muslims dont reply by attacking the other religions back,did we ?
Point to me where did we insult Christianity or Judaism or atheistic ?
Do you want me to point out how many threads have insulted İslam ?!
No need,they are many,and already locked too,yes ?!
İ guess TC is just part of the world who has no problem with İslam or Muslims,yes ?!
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