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Defend Bülent Ersoy
(64 Messages in 7 pages - View all)
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1.       LCT
25 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 11:46 am

I think we should defend Bülent Ersoy.
What she said was right.

'I'm a not a mother,nor can I ever have children,but if could I would not send my son to war'

She has been threatened wıth 3 years imprisonment for saying this.
This is not a crime.
Has the right to free speech eroded so much that people cannot speak out against war?




2.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 11:47 am

I back her fully!

3.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 11:51 am

It is outrageous that a personal opinion can result in imprisonment. My support for her.

4.       azade
1606 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 12:00 pm



I don't really knwo what to say, it's beyond ridiculous if they actually send her to prison.....

Heck I've said much worse things

5.       janissary
0 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 02:23 pm

if we are here now, if we have a mother language, if we have a country called "TURKIYE" or if we have freedom after all those attacts to Anatolia everytime in history (in gallipolli, in independence war, fight against terrorism,,and others), we owe all of these to faithful mothers. Turkish mothers send their sons to army for sacrificing in the sake of homeland. in advance it was like this and now it s. everything can change in the world, but not culture. I dont want other ppl understand us, it s useless. they can not understand what does it mean if a mother make henna to his son's hand when she sends him to army. maybe Bülent Ersoy is very far from turkish culture, that s why she talked like this. but she must not forget that if she has the name "bülent" and speaking turkish, she owes these to mothers who send their unique and the only son to army. so, I do not defend her. she has no right to talk instead of turkish mothers.

6.       LCT
25 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 02:29 pm

Quoting janissary:

she has no right to talk instead of turkish mothers.



Well if she doesn't then you've just excluded yourself from the argument, unless of course you are a mother who has sent her son to the army, which I guess you're not.

7.       janissary
0 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 02:43 pm

Quoting LCT:

Quoting janissary:

she has no right to talk instead of turkish mothers.



Well if she doesn't then you've just excluded yourself from the argument, unless of course you are a mother who has sent her son to the army, which I guess you're not.



and you are not a turkish mother... turkey has a very important Geo-politic position between Asia and Europe. that's why there are many bad plans playing on turkey. if there is still "Turkey", it s because we have turkish mothers.

8.       LCT
25 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 02:55 pm

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

Pastor Martin Niemöller


You don't have to be a woman to speak out against sexism
You don't have to be gay to speak out against homophobia
You don't have to be black to speak out against racism

You don't have to be Turkish/a mother/a soldier..etc...
to speak out against the war
We all have the right to stand up and speak.
That's the point.

9.       janissary
0 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 03:28 pm

I address the Turkish Army whose record of victory started at the down of the history of mankind and which has carried the light of civilization in its victorious progress.

I have no doubt that just as in the most critical and difficult times you saved the country from oppressiom, tragedy and enemy invasion, so today, in the furuitful era of the Republic equipped with all the modern weapons and means of military science you will do your duty with the same faith.

I and our great nation know that you are always prepared to carry out your duty defending the honour of our country and our civilisation against danger, from inside or out.

M. KEMAL ATATURK.

We Turks are a people who, throughout our history, have been the very embodiment of freedom and independence.
M. KEMAL ATATURK.

Our nation has succeeded owing to the unshakable unity it has shown in its actions and endeavours.
M. KEMAL ATATURK.

I dont defend war, nobody does. if we have to defend our land one day, we will never look behind. Im saying these, coz I will go to army as all turkish youth oneday. who knows it will be my turn when Im in the army.

10.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 03:33 pm

Janissary, so you think that whatever your country does should be accepted by everyone and no personal opinions can be voiced if they disagree with the country's policy?

Do you think that people who say they are against war should be imprisoned?

11.       janissary
0 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 04:05 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Janissary, so you think that whatever your country does should be accepted by everyone and no personal opinions can be voiced if they disagree with the country's policy?

Do you think that people who say they are against war should be imprisoned?



of course not. but this is not the point. if turkey attacted Greece or another country, I wouldnt accept it. BUT if ur country is in danger and invaded by enemies, someones have to die for this country and there are millions of young ppl and mothers who will volunteered to be a martyr (not dead, coz it s different). coz everything... ur culture, ur religion, ur life, ur family will be in danger. if u dont understand what are these mean, nothinbg to tell more.

12.       teaschip
3870 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 04:33 pm

Quoting LCT:

I think we should defend Bülent Ersoy.
What she said was right.

'I'm a not a mother,nor can I ever have children,but if could I would not send my son to war'

She has been threatened wıth 3 years imprisonment for saying this.
This is not a crime.
Has the right to free speech eroded so much that people cannot speak out against war?






This is soooo backwards...what year are we in? This poor mother... Threatened with 3 years imprisonment...what a bunch of bull.

13.       MrX67
2540 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 04:43 pm

how can she talk as she wished while real mothers sending their sons as a hennaed lambs just with the country love??everybody have to know limits,especially on sensitive events.....Speech and opinion freedom sure one of the main right,but we all have to know an unlimited freedoms brings only chaos...

14.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:05 pm

Quoting janissary:

Quoting Daydreamer:

Janissary, so you think that whatever your country does should be accepted by everyone and no personal opinions can be voiced if they disagree with the country's policy?

Do you think that people who say they are against war should be imprisoned?



of course not. but this is not the point. if turkey attacted Greece or another country, I wouldnt accept it. BUT if ur country is in danger and invaded by enemies, someones have to die for this country and there are millions of young ppl and mothers who will volunteered to be a martyr (not dead, coz it s different). coz everything... ur culture, ur religion, ur life, ur family will be in danger. if u dont understand what are these mean, nothinbg to tell more.



+1
İm not with her been threatened with 3 years imprisonment.
But except of her country army,she wouldnt be here today stating such statment.
No one with war,but if you have to,if you have to defend your country,then you should have strong army donig so
And those mother have sent their kids to the war through the years for people like her to live.

15.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:07 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

This poor mother... Threatened with 3 years imprisonment...what a bunch of bull.


She is not a mother,she cant be one.

16.       boradiz
121 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:10 pm

The real problem here is that in general public many people objected since "Bülent" is not a mother. Technically she can never give birth to a baby.
"one of Turkey's most popular male singers and actors, Bülent Ersoy gained international notoriety in 1981 for a sex change operation by Dr. Mındıkoğlu in her native country" Wiki

So with this line of thinking, only "martyrs" can criticize military operations, or mothers who "sacrified" their sons can ask for peace.
My poor mother can never ask for peace since none of his sons have been martyrs.

Do you really think that you can hear the voice of mothers if they ask for peace?

17.       MrX67
2540 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:21 pm

Quoting boradiz:

The real problem here is that in general public many people objected since "Bülent" is not a mother. Technically she can never give birth to a baby.
"one of Turkey's most popular male singers and actors, Bülent Ersoy gained international notoriety in 1981 for a sex change operation by Dr. Mındıkoğlu in her native country" Wiki

So with this line of thinking, only "martyrs" can criticize military operations, or mothers who "sacrified" their sons can ask for peace.
My poor mother can never ask for peace since none of his sons have been martyrs.

Do you really think that you can hear the voice of mothers if they ask for peace?

Peace in country and peace on world our national password already,so i think noone of us against to peace or noone of us here wishing a war,just we don't have to mix apples and pears,war and fight with terrorism so different things,and i think everythings innocent if its aim defence...

18.       LCT
25 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:34 pm

You do seem to have a problem with peace.

Bülent Ersoy spoke out against war.

You say she has no right to do so.

Who gave you the right to tell anyone what they can and cannot say?

I feel sorry for those killed on both sides of this conflict.

If you don't then I think you ought to have a think about what you mean by peace.

19.       boradiz
121 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:35 pm

well even many turkish generals admitted that this is a war (asymetric , or low intensity war were of their use...)

For the "martyrs" and their mothers I think it does not make any difference btw, right?

But lets not spoil the topic.
Suppose that Bülent has a son.
Does she have the right not to send his son to combat?
or lets make the question different
Suppose that I believe that nobody can solve their differences with any act of violence.
If I object to make my military duty, will you let me ? or will I go to prison for treason?

20.       MrX67
2540 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:39 pm

then freedom to terrorism,long live chaos.....

21.       boradiz
121 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:41 pm

long Live anarchy, No God No goverment

22.       MrX67
2540 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:42 pm

Quoting LCT:

You do seem to have a problem with peace.

Bülent Ersoy spoke out against war.

You say she has no right to do so.

Who gave you the right to tell anyone what they can and cannot say?

I feel sorry for those killed on both sides of this conflict.

If you don't then I think you ought to have a think about what you mean by peace.

and who gave you the right to say terrorsim can burn many innocent people???

23.       MrX67
2540 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:43 pm

Quoting boradiz:

long Live anarchy, No God No goverment

seems life realities a bit large or narrow for you??

24.       LCT
25 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:50 pm

Terror is defined as: a violent action which causes extreme fear.

There are many perpetrators.

Usually governments are the best at this as they have the most resources to do so. The "terrorists" are often ill-equipped and in dire circumstances.

Neither are right to do so, but there is a difference of scale.

25.       teaschip
3870 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:51 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting teaschip1:

This poor mother... Threatened with 3 years imprisonment...what a bunch of bull.


She is not a mother,she cant be one.



I just noticed that, however it should still give her a right to her opinion...without being imprisoned.

26.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 06:05 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting teaschip1:

This poor mother... Threatened with 3 years imprisonment...what a bunch of bull.


She is not a mother,she cant be one.



I just noticed that, however it should still give her a right to her opinion...without being imprisoned.


İ agree with that

27.       janissary
0 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 06:28 pm

Quoting LCT:

You do seem to have a problem with peace.

Bülent Ersoy spoke out against war.

You say she has no right to do so.

Who gave you the right to tell anyone what they can and cannot say?

I feel sorry for those killed on both sides of this conflict.

If you don't then I think you ought to have a think about what you mean by peace.



yes she can talk whatever she likes. but wrong place and wrong time. her/his speech just gave more pain to mothers. nothing else. in my opinion she was trying to be more populer and she successed. but it s not a peaceful way. it would be very nice if she gave some messages about the unity of this country at that time.

28.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 06:35 pm

Quoting janissary:



yes she can talk whatever she likes. but wrong place and wrong time. her/his speech just gave more pain to mothers. nothing else. in my opinion she was trying to be more populer and she successed. but it s not a peaceful way. it would be very nice if she gave some messages about the unity of this country at that time.



See, that's the point. You may not like her opinion, you may disagree with it, you may even strongly feel against it, but you cannot forbid her to have one nor imprison her for saying she's against war.

I understand it's hard time for Turks, especially for those who lost their relatives. I do sympathise with them. However, sentencing someone for jail just because she said she wouldn't want her son to die if she had any, is a serious violation of her right to have her own opinion.

29.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 06:51 pm

Quoting janissary:



yes she can talk whatever she likes. but wrong place and wrong time. her/his speech just gave more pain to mothers. nothing else. in my opinion she was trying to be more populer and she successed. but it s not a peaceful way. it would be very nice if she gave some messages about the unity of this country at that time.



İ do agree with you
But also i think ignoring her was the best way to reply on what she've said
Threatening to imprison her is what made her more popular.

30.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 08:02 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting janissary:



yes she can talk whatever she likes. but wrong place and wrong time. her/his speech just gave more pain to mothers. nothing else. in my opinion she was trying to be more populer and she successed. but it s not a peaceful way. it would be very nice if she gave some messages about the unity of this country at that time.



İ do agree with you
But also i think ignoring her was the best way to reply on what she've said
Threatening to imprison her is what made her more popular.


I, 100% disagree with you both actually!!
What did she do in the end?
Just said those words!!.
So what?
what is wrong with what she said?

In the end, almost an entire generation (from 1978 to 2008) grew up with this rhetoric and the result is 40.000 dead people ..
No peace, no solution in the near future..

31.       janissary
0 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 11:00 pm

Quote:

Quote:


I, 100% disagree with you both actually!!
What did she do in the end?
Just said those words!!.
So what?
what is wrong with what she said?

In the end, almost an entire generation (from 1978 to 2008) grew up with this rhetoric and the result is 40.000 dead people ..
No peace, no solution in the near future..



Handsom, u are really far from some realities about turkey like most of turkish ppl, live in europe. I really sorrow to see turkish ppl who can think like that. do you think turkish ppl love to war??? u dont need to follow some turkish intellectuals who try to be different from most of turkish ppl. As I understood from ur posts and chats, u are such a person that looks like some politicians who talks about human rights, peace and compromise everytime but never condemn terrorist groups, and never does anything to serve, just talk as if it s enough to find food. if giving land or dividing turkey in 2 parts is a solution, why did millions of young ppl die for this land??? I can only advise u to do one thing from now on... just find the book "Nutuk" of Ataturk and read it, then answer my post if u want to.

32.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Mar 2008 Wed 11:44 pm

Quote:

Quote:

Quoting janissary:


I, 100% disagree with you both actually!!
What did she do in the end?
Just said those words!!.
So what?
what is wrong with what she said?

In the end, almost an entire generation (from 1978 to 2008) grew up with this rhetoric and the result is 40.000 dead people ..
No peace, no solution in the near future..



Handsom, u are really far from some realities about turkey like most of turkish ppl, live in europe. I really sorrow to see turkish ppl who can think like that. do you think turkish ppl love to war??? u dont need to follow some turkish intellectuals who try to be different from most of turkish ppl. As I understood from ur posts and chats, u are such a person that looks like some politicians who talks about human rights, peace and compromise everytime but never condemn terrorist groups, and never does anything to serve, just talk as if it s enough to find food. if giving land or dividing turkey in 2 parts is a solution, why did millions of young ppl die for this land??? I can only advise u to do one thing from now on... just find the book "Nutuk" of Ataturk and read it, then answer my post if u want to.


Janissary,
Listen..I am aware of the fact that when I say 'human rights, peace etc', they seem some abstract words to you; they are not, somehow, making concrete sense to you!!
But that is where went 'wrong' in the first place in Turkey!! That is the real mistake we have been doing so far..(btw, this is nothing to do for me being out of Turkey..These are my reformed/softened ideas as far as the politics in Turkey are concerned ..You trust me, my critisisims were much more severe when I was in Turkey. I would call all hardened nationilists with all sorts of names . Most polite names, I would use, were 'the puppets of USA, servants of CIA' etc.. So lets dont go into 'realities of Turkey/being abroad' thing, please!!

I am not talking about millions who died for that soil..I am talking about 40.000 people who died for a war which could have been easily prevented from the begining.
If, only if, we knew abit more what 'basic human rights' is.
I dont want to dig into the details about what we have done to the people in south east since 1980.
Nationalism BREEDS NATIONALISM.
If there is a kurdish nationlism NOW, it is the result of turkish nationalism..
Basically, the nationalism in Turkey is dividing IT, without knowing it.
How? because turkish nationlism is creating/feeding its opposite, which is kurdish nationalism, which itself is a danger too..
That is why we are unable to finish this problem..
That is why it is not going to finish with these incursions.
That is why we lost 40.000 people.(That is why we are still losing)
That is why there is PKK..

About 'NUTUK'..
Dont worry..Of course I have read it..But I will recommend you to read more books as well NUTUK..
Start from the books like 'Vahsetin Gunlugu-Diyarbakir zindanlarindan/Mehdi Zana'(which can be translated into english as 'dairy of brutality-from dungons of Diyarbakir/Mehdi zana)

33.       janissary
0 posts
 06 Mar 2008 Thu 09:54 am

Our problem is not turkish nationalism. believe me we have same nationalism like other europen countries, maybe less. at first we must look at turks who live in greece, bulgaria and other europen countries these europen countries have more strict nationalism. aftfer this we must look at nationalism in turkey. I wish we had same nationalism like UK, Sweden, France... sometimes I wish to have a prime-minister from Israel or USA. then nobody would accuse us with being nationalist.

34.       adonis
0 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 04:54 am

Quote:

Quote:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting janissary:


I, 100% disagree with you both actually!!
What did she do in the end?
Just said those words!!.
So what?
what is wrong with what she said?

In the end, almost an entire generation (from 1978 to 2008) grew up with this rhetoric and the result is 40.000 dead people ..
No peace, no solution in the near future..



Handsom, u are really far from some realities about turkey like most of turkish ppl, live in europe. I really sorrow to see turkish ppl who can think like that. do you think turkish ppl love to war??? u dont need to follow some turkish intellectuals who try to be different from most of turkish ppl. As I understood from ur posts and chats, u are such a person that looks like some politicians who talks about human rights, peace and compromise everytime but never condemn terrorist groups, and never does anything to serve, just talk as if it s enough to find food. if giving land or dividing turkey in 2 parts is a solution, why did millions of young ppl die for this land??? I can only advise u to do one thing from now on... just find the book "Nutuk" of Ataturk and read it, then answer my post if u want to.


Janissary,
Listen..I am aware of the fact that when I say 'human rights, peace etc', they seem some abstract words to you; they are not, somehow, making concrete sense to you!!
But that is where went 'wrong' in the first place in Turkey!! That is the real mistake we have been doing so far..(btw, this is nothing to do for me being out of Turkey..These are my reformed/softened ideas as far as the politics in Turkey are concerned ..You trust me, my critisisims were much more severe when I was in Turkey. I would call all hardened nationilists with all sorts of names . Most polite names, I would use, were 'the puppets of USA, servants of CIA' etc.. So lets dont go into 'realities of Turkey/being abroad' thing, please!!

I am not talking about millions who died for that soil..I am talking about 40.000 people who died for a war which could have been easily prevented from the begining.
If, only if, we knew abit more what 'basic human rights' is.
I dont want to dig into the details about what we have done to the people in south east since 1980.
Nationalism BREEDS NATIONALISM.
If there is a kurdish nationlism NOW, it is the result of turkish nationalism..
Basically, the nationalism in Turkey is dividing IT, without knowing it.
How? because turkish nationlism is creating/feeding its opposite, which is kurdish nationalism, which itself is a danger too..
That is why we are unable to finish this problem..
That is why it is not going to finish with these incursions.
That is why we lost 40.000 people.(That is why we are still losing)
That is why there is PKK..

About 'NUTUK'..
Dont worry..Of course I have read it..But I will recommend you to read more books as well NUTUK..
Start from the books like 'Vahsetin Gunlugu-Diyarbakir zindanlarindan/Mehdi Zana'(which can be translated into english as 'dairy of brutality-from dungons of Diyarbakir/Mehdi zana)



wow! have you got an ability of thinking, handsom? always giving same arguments: nationalism breeds nationalism, nationalism causes pkk, expressions from a neo-liboş bla bla bla...

just like telgrafın telleri...

don't u still know that nationalism is not a creditable reason for these problem?

Turkey has been struggling economic crisis for approximately 30 years and Turkish economy hasn't gained stability yet. Owing to these economic difficulties in Turkey, especially in eastern region, pkk emerged from there as soon as possible.

the first cause for pkk is economy as you see.

the second one is "not protecting the structure of national sovereign state" and so regardless the ethnicity of an individual, he/she has lost to pertain to Turkey, because of the imperialist attacks to Turkey and the silly-comprador governments and politicians...

now, you are still lamenting freedom, wild nationalism, human rights etc.. just like a Dtp parliament.

wow! it's very easy to dogmatize from Soho/London with 24 C temperature room and a warm bed. look at the neo-liberal... haha you are very funny buddy...

and you are advising a book which is written by a terrorist so-called Mehdi Zana (husband of Leyla Zana).

handsom, before advising that book, please explain this picture as soon as possible. What do u see in this picture?

[IMG]http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5923/apoahmetturkvg6.jpg[/IMG]


Right to Left: Celal Talabani, Abdullah Öcalan (Apo), Mehdi Zana and Ahmet Türk.

We want to see the ignorant and epicurean guys just like you in the region of North Iraq and eastern region of Turkey.

35.       catwoman
8933 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 04:59 am

Quoting janissary:

Our problem is not turkish nationalism. believe me we have same nationalism like other europen countries, maybe less.


OMG, I can't believe this!!!! lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

36.       catwoman
8933 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 05:01 am

Quoting thehandsom:

I dont want to dig into the details about what we have done to the people in south east since 1980.
Nationalism BREEDS NATIONALISM.
If there is a kurdish nationlism NOW, it is the result of turkish nationalism..
Basically, the nationalism in Turkey is dividing IT, without knowing it.
How? because turkish nationlism is creating/feeding its opposite, which is kurdish nationalism, which itself is a danger too..
That is why we are unable to finish this problem..
That is why it is not going to finish with these incursions.
That is why we lost 40.000 people.(That is why we are still losing)
That is why there is PKK..


+100000000000000000000000000000

37.       adonis
0 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 05:09 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting thehandsom:

I dont want to dig into the details about what we have done to the people in south east since 1980.
Nationalism BREEDS NATIONALISM.
If there is a kurdish nationlism NOW, it is the result of turkish nationalism..
Basically, the nationalism in Turkey is dividing IT, without knowing it.
How? because turkish nationlism is creating/feeding its opposite, which is kurdish nationalism, which itself is a danger too..
That is why we are unable to finish this problem..
That is why it is not going to finish with these incursions.
That is why we lost 40.000 people.(That is why we are still losing)
That is why there is PKK..


+100000000000000000000000000000



we want to see you in Northern Iraq region cat.. it's very easy to give flowers and giving numbers from a warm room...

38.       catwoman
8933 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 05:19 am

Quoting adonis:

we want to see you in Northern Iraq region cat.. it's very easy to give flowers and giving numbers from a warm room...


only stupid people have to fight for peace, smart people can achieve it without bloodshed.

39.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 11:41 am

Quoting adonis:


Turkey has been struggling economic crisis for approximately 30 years and Turkish economy hasn't gained stability yet. Owing to these economic difficulties in Turkey, especially in eastern region, pkk emerged from there as soon as possible.

the first cause for pkk is economy as you see.

the second one is "not protecting the structure of national sovereign state" and so regardless the ethnicity of an individual, he/she has lost to pertain to Turkey, because of the imperialist attacks to Turkey and the silly-comprador governments and politicians...


I am not sure you have adequate knowledge about 'who Turks are, who kurds are and what the problem is'.
Tying the whole problem into last 30 years economy is the proof of that..
anyway..
Somehow, when I try to explain something to you, I am having this feeling that I am wasting my time. Because, you will NOT get it..
Sorry but:
You are not that deep.
And, I am not that cheap.

40.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 11:49 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting janissary:

Our problem is not turkish nationalism. believe me we have same nationalism like other europen countries, maybe less.


OMG, I can't believe this!!!! lol lol lol lol lol lol lol



There's nothing to laugh about, I'm sure some nations can be compared. Let's have a look - we love our country, our country is the best, nobody can criticize our country (even its inhabitants) or will be banished/imprisoned, all government decisions must be obeyed, if we're on war nobody can be against it...hmm...no..sorry, I was wrong. It can't be compared

41.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 11:51 am

Quoting catwoman:


only stupid people have to fight for peace, smart people can achieve it without bloodshed.



theoretically,i agree
realistically,name one !

Even developed countries,which are rich and modern ,have all the facilities that can be imagined and whom you think we suppose to be similar to them,learn from them and be like them so we can be liberal,developed,and modern,they fight also,but not even for peace!

So i guess there is no such smart people after all,is there ?!

42.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 11:55 am

Quoting CANLI:



So i guess there is no such smart people after all,is there ?!



I'm sure there are some, but unfortunately there are fewer of them than the stupid/greedy ones.

43.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 11:59 am

İ know its off the topic,but some how it is also in the topic,
Some way,i think war,or many of the wars are made because of men's arrogance ''No offence guys''
So,if women were in charge do you think it would be same,or things would be different ?
Would we have more peace than this hell wars we are having every where for no reasons ?
Or also greed would be a motivation ?!

44.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 12:12 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

if we're on war nobody can be against it...hmm...no..sorry, I was wrong. It can't be compared



Actually we can compare also,
When germany were invading Europe,such voice wasnt appreciated was it ?

İ think when ones country is in a war to defend itself and its bordereds,so who speak against it,and not supporting it would be even traitor !

But when ones country is İNVADİNG other countries,and sending its youth to death for that,so i guess we can stand against it without having that sense of betraying.
Because somehow its the other way arround,the country or lets say the government is batraying its people and sending them to death where it should be making their lives more easier

45.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 12:14 pm

Quoting CANLI:


So,if women were in charge do you think it would be same,or things would be different ?
Would we have more peace than this hell wars we are having every where for no reasons ?
Or also greed would be a motivation ?!



Interesting question. On the one hand, men are testosterone-driven, more aggressive and less compassionate while women are said to be more emphatic. On the other, women are more prone to hormonal changes and stubborn ( I heard that anti-terrorist learn to shoot a female terrorist first as they are usually impossible to negotiate with).

However, history's shown us that women in power can be as cruel as men (Tzarina Catherine, Bloody Mary).

46.       adonis
0 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 03:21 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting adonis:


Turkey has been struggling economic crisis for approximately 30 years and Turkish economy hasn't gained stability yet. Owing to these economic difficulties in Turkey, especially in eastern region, pkk emerged from there as soon as possible.

the first cause for pkk is economy as you see.

the second one is "not protecting the structure of national sovereign state" and so regardless the ethnicity of an individual, he/she has lost to pertain to Turkey, because of the imperialist attacks to Turkey and the silly-comprador governments and politicians...


I am not sure you have adequate knowledge about 'who Turks are, who kurds are and what the problem is'.
Tying the whole problem into last 30 years economy is the proof of that..
anyway..
Somehow, when I try to explain something to you, I am having this feeling that I am wasting my time. Because, you will NOT get it..
Sorry but:
You are not that deep.
And, I am not that cheap.



you still havent explained the photo that i give before. why? only making demagigies, cheep, deep etc...

why most of Turks who escape to Europe are very degenerated just like you? tell me buddy...

47.       adonis
0 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 03:24 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting adonis:

we want to see you in Northern Iraq region cat.. it's very easy to give flowers and giving numbers from a warm room...


only stupid people have to fight for peace, smart people can achieve it without bloodshed.



only stupid people have to sit down on their cradles, careful and noble people can take their honour to live independently.

48.       catwoman
8933 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 03:32 pm

Quoting adonis:

you still havent explained the photo that i give before. why? only making demagigies, cheep, deep etc...

why most of Turks who escape to Europe are very degenerated just like you? tell me buddy...


Should I laugh... or should I cry... this is the question!

49.       catwoman
8933 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 03:32 pm

Quoting adonis:

only stupid people have to sit down on their cradles, careful and noble people can take their honour to live independently.


why did you pick the first option again? lol

50.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 03:33 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting adonis:

only stupid people have to sit down on their cradles, careful and noble people can take their honour to live independently.


why did you pick the first option again? lol


hahahahaha lol lol

51.       adonis
0 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 03:36 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting adonis:

only stupid people have to sit down on their cradles, careful and noble people can take their honour to live independently.


why did you pick the first option again? lol


hahahahaha lol lol



in order to show your simple minds. it's very easy for being court jesters in a web site...

52.       catwoman
8933 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 03:42 pm

Quoting adonis:

in order to show your simple minds. it's very easy for being court jesters in a web site...


I lost you man..... so you're saying that it's much harder to say the things you say in front of a real person? I can offer an explanation if you wish.

53.       adonis
0 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 03:51 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting adonis:

in order to show your simple minds. it's very easy for being court jesters in a web site...


I lost you man..... so you're saying that it's much harder to say the things you say in front of a real person? I can offer an explanation if you wish.



essentially you get lost. i don't need your simple explanations, cuz you have no capacity to fight with me, only make lamentations and after taking the proofs from the clever women and of course from me, you only digress the subject on order to survive from our kicks...

again to say that where was your warning to that swearing woman? or are you defending her for your silly feminist perception? hahaha, come on cat. game over...

if i really wanted to be admin of you, i'd become it, don't worry, but i don't wanna be your admin, it's not interesting for me.. got it..

move away from your cradle..

54.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 04:11 pm

I havent read the entire thread, but just to Janissary.. do you think all those mothers willingly sent their sons to the war? Look at the nickname you choose You should know better!


--
I am not saying one shouldnt be thankful for people who safeguarded the future of their country. I still keep two minutes silence at the remembrance day of WWII. But that is not the discussion here. Nor is the discussion whether we all think that this current war is good, bad, should go on, should be stopped. The discussion was about whether such a saying is crime enough to be imprisoned. And it is not

She did not hurt anyone, as she made a perfectly personal statement, about what SHE would do.
You may say: she hurts the mothers who lost their child in the war.

1. Mother who want to send their child to war, know that there is a possibility that he will become a şehit. This is something respectful, as the mothers wanted their sons to defend their land.
2. Mothers who did nto want to send their son to war but had to, will only agree.

I hope this ridicule will end soon.

55.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 07 Mar 2008 Fri 04:28 pm

Quoting janissary:

if we are here now, if we have a mother language, if we have a country called "TURKIYE" or if we have freedom after all those attacts to Anatolia everytime in history (in gallipolli, in independence war, fight against terrorism,,and others), we owe all of these to faithful mothers. Turkish mothers send their sons to army for sacrificing in the sake of homeland. in advance it was like this and now it s. everything can change in the world, but not culture. I dont want other ppl understand us, it s useless. they can not understand what does it mean if a mother make henna to his son's hand when she sends him to army. maybe Bülent Ersoy is very far from turkish culture, that s why she talked like this. but she must not forget that if she has the name "bülent" and speaking turkish, she owes these to mothers who send their unique and the only son to army. so, I do not defend her. she has no right to talk instead of turkish mothers.



Janissary - I agree with you in a way and here is why. Many mothers around the world, not just Turkish mothers, are sending their beloved sons (and daughters) or supporting them and their decision to go off into the armed forces. They do so with a heavy heart. It is the ultimate sacrifice for a mother. Speaking out against this is, in MY opininion, very thoughtless and selfish. But, to make it a CRIME to to say you are against it and to express your opinion is completely wrong.

56.       janissary
0 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 11:25 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

I havent read the entire thread, but just to Janissary.. do you think all those mothers willingly sent their sons to the war? Look at the nickname you choose You should know better!


--
I am not saying one shouldnt be thankful for people who safeguarded the future of their country. I still keep two minutes silence at the remembrance day of WWII. But that is not the discussion here. Nor is the discussion whether we all think that this current war is good, bad, should go on, should be stopped. The discussion was about whether such a saying is crime enough to be imprisoned. And it is not

She did not hurt anyone, as she made a perfectly personal statement, about what SHE would do.
You may say: she hurts the mothers who lost their child in the war.

1. Mother who want to send their child to war, know that there is a possibility that he will become a şehit. This is something respectful, as the mothers wanted their sons to defend their land.
2. Mothers who did nto want to send their son to war but had to, will only agree.

I hope this ridicule will end soon.




where were ur mind when u were in turkey Deli kızın

have u ever been in a Bus station when ppl sending boys to army? you would see ppl dancing, singing, halay, horon...of course mothers cry after their son and they are proud of them.

maybe u only met some ppl who are against this.

u missed some words of me, he/she can talk about it and say his/her thoughts but the time she talked about it was not true.

about my nickname; I love my country, and I will go to army willingly one day. I hope u understand somethings from my nickname now...

57.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 03:12 pm

Quoting janissary:

where were ur mind when u were in turkey Deli kızın

have u ever been in a Bus station when ppl sending boys to army? you would see ppl dancing, singing, halay, horon...of course mothers cry after their son and they are proud of them.


No I have not

maybe u only met some ppl who are against this.

Actually I dont know.. and I wasnt sayıng I am agaınst army duty, I was merely saying that I am sure there are enough women who are against that war and who do not want to send their sons!

u missed some words of me, he/she can talk about it and say his/her thoughts but the time she talked about it was not true.

I misunderstood you then. I thought you were sayıng you agree with her being charged!

about my nickname; I love my country, and I will go to army willingly one day. I hope u understand somethings from my nickname now...

Thats all very nice, but most of the soldiers in the derviş system didnt go willingly like you would They were taken away from their families, put in special trainingcamps, raised in an islamic way for around 8 years with a strict military training. Through this intensive training they became loyal to sultan, but evenetually could climb up in the hierarchy. At the end of the day, they may have forgotten they were forced to do so, converted to another religion etc. but still..

58.       janissary
0 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 03:24 pm

I think u mean women whose sons are terrorists or some women in DTP.

about jannisarries; where have u learnt history yes it s true that they were foreign children but how do you know they werent going to war willingly. or did u learn this from ur grand grand dad? they were the children who had no family and mostly died in the wars.

59.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 03:33 pm

Quoting janissary:

I think u mean women whose sons are terrorists or some women in DTP.

about jannisarries; where have u learnt history yes it s true that they were foreign children but how do you know they werent going to war willingly. or did u learn this from ur grand grand dad? they were the children who had no family and mostly died in the wars.



Not all people support the war, abicim...

I am taking history from Mr. Zürcher, who got an ödül from your own government As for literature, we use some books including Cleveland, Goldschmidt and Davidson. I think some of our resources are more trustworthy than the ones in your country.. I have seen some Turkish schoolbooks of history, they are just funny (and very incomplete)

Anyway this is not worth a discussion. Have a nice day, Im off to go on studying history

60.       janissary
0 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:50 pm

Deli kızın, I dont know ur country but mostly in europe politicians write history books not historians....

about army duty, Im sure his mother is not against army duty, maybe u are scared to send him there lol

61.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:56 pm

Quoting janissary:

Deli kızın, I dont know ur country but mostly in europe politicians write history books not historians....

about army duty, Im sure his mother is not against army duty, maybe u are scared to send him there lol




Profesor Zürcher is not a politician, canım

I would prefer if you keep Kadirs mother out of the discussion!!! And Im not scared of sending him to the army, since he'll be working as a paid doctor. Actually, I hope they send him somewhere east so I get the chance to learn Kurdish. Now THAT will make his mom happy!

62.       janissary
0 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:13 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting janissary:

Deli kızın, I dont know ur country but mostly in europe politicians write history books not historians....

about army duty, Im sure his mother is not against army duty, maybe u are scared to send him there lol




Profesor Zürcher is not a politician, canım

I would prefer if you keep Kadirs mother out of the discussion!!! And Im not scared of sending him to the army, since he'll be working as a paid doctor. Actually, I hope they send him somewhere east so I get the chance to learn Kurdish. Now THAT will make his mom happy!



hehe how did u know I talk about her!. Im sorry if I said something wrong, I said a good thing about his mother... I wish u can learn kurdish soon.

63.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:18 pm

Quoting janissary:


hehe how did u know I talk about her!. Im sorry if I said something wrong, I said a good thing about his mother... I wish u can learn kurdish soon.



Well I never said you said something bad I just wish you didn't drag her (or my mom) into that, as she is among the people I respect most, and has done nothing wrong to deserve to enter a tc discussion lol

Anyway. I dont know what she thinks about it. I dont even know what I think about army-duty So whether its good or bad is not even the discussion. Im just saying Im so sure there are mothers who are against the war and wish not to send their sons

64.       janissary
0 posts
 08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:33 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting janissary:


hehe how did u know I talk about her!. Im sorry if I said something wrong, I said a good thing about his mother... I wish u can learn kurdish soon.



Well I never said you said something bad I just wish you didn't drag her (or my mom) into that, as she is among the people I respect most, and has done nothing wrong to deserve to enter a tc discussion lol

Anyway. I dont know what she thinks about it. I dont even know what I think about army-duty So whether its good or bad is not even the discussion. Im just saying Im so sure there are mothers who are against the war and wish not to send their sons



it s ok. Im happy to hear that. I respect to all mothers. and I meant she would be proud of him, when he went to armydont worry this forum is not a bad place.

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