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170.       vineyards
1954 posts
 22 Mar 2008 Sat 11:21 pm

No one is supposed to prove anything to anyone.

171.       armegon
1872 posts
 22 Mar 2008 Sat 11:28 pm

I know i did not prove anything, as i said in my post . I just transferred what i know, anything wrong?, i did not start this discussion btw.

172.       vineyards
1954 posts
 23 Mar 2008 Sun 02:59 am

I am not referring specifically to you but please for a second think about the absurdity of raving about the age of Aisha in a language learning site. Did it stop there and the parties just noted one another's point of view there would be no problem but there is usually more to it.

In the end, I suppose, this is the wrong place for having such discussions. To avoid bitterness, we should really mind our own belief and refrain from criticizing others'.

173.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 23 Mar 2008 Sun 03:03 pm

Quoting vineyards:

I am not referring specifically to you but please for a second think about the absurdity of raving about the age of Aisha in a language learning site. Did it stop there and the parties just noted one another's point of view there would be no problem but there is usually more to it.

In the end, I suppose, this is the wrong place for having such discussions. To avoid bitterness, we should really mind our own belief and refrain from criticizing others'.


This is interesting!
Because, I remember catwoman saying that 'there is no restriction to topis' and you are saying that this is a wrong place for having such a discussion (which was clearly not the topic for this post, but somehow, as usual, spiralled out)
May be you should really sit down and discuss 'what is what' and let us know.
Then we decide what to post or what not to post or not post at all!!

174.       vineyards
1954 posts
 23 Mar 2008 Sun 04:03 pm

I am not a moderator of this forum.
I said "I suppose" in other words I am not sanctioning anybody's thoughts, I am just putting forward my opinion at a time when people are getting into these fruitless discussions.
Since the beginning, I have defended the need for respecting each other's faith.

It is a very serious accusation to say that Mohammad had a 9 year old wife which by today's standards is a child abuse case. Do you think such matters should really be discussed here? What kind of an outcome do you expect out of that?

I wouldn't object to discussions about specific details pertaining to a belief system.

For example,
What do you think about after life, how is it described in your faith?
What is the purpose of Asure day?
Why do you fast?

Above questions indicate a geniune curiousity about Islam.
They should be more than welcome and actually provide an excellent opportunity for cultural exchange.

We should support mutual understanding and tolerance. We shouldn't talk about prophet's sex life based on unproven information.

175.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 23 Mar 2008 Sun 05:35 pm

If you look at the posts, I just gave aysa's age- mohammed as an example as a non insulting subject in the begining.
It was just an example. I was, clearly, not try to open a discussion about it. (But some of the muslim friends picked on it and took it as an insult -again-.)

Respecting eachother's faith is one of my princepals too but with a slight difference: you believe critisisim towards religion is violation of personal freedom of speech,whereas I dont.

And although I would not open a subject personally about 'if Mohammad had a 9 year old wife'. But I would not object it either from the 'personal speech point of view'.

And I also mentioned before what is wrong about your idea of 'critisisim towards religion is violation of personal freedom of speech'.
Becasue, critisisim towards religion is NOT 'violation of personal freedom of speech'.

I said in one of my posts:
"any beliefs which are not true or valid will only be revealed through criticism.
What this means is that if people care about the truth, they should not be afraid of criticism.
if they are true then this will strengthen them; if they are wrong, then they will are free to follow new beliefs."


And also I mentioned that

"each person deserves respect as a human being.
But their belief does not get that respect automatically..
The belief has to earn that respect. "


I really reccommend religious people should be more tolerant about 'anything' regarding their religion.
When you dont, it really looks like you are inline with the man in the cave who threathened denmark about the cartoons, with the people who were happy with fatwa about salman rushdie or with the people who tried to burn aziz nesin alive because he wanted to publish satanic verses in Turkish.

176.       vineyards
1954 posts
 23 Mar 2008 Sun 06:39 pm

So the consequences of whose opinions have we been suffering in the form of misunderstandings, protests and eventually personal attacks?

For my own part, I wouldn't like anyone to call me "zindik", "infidel" or whatever just because I don't believe in one of the established belief systems. It is none of their business, this is a matter of belief and belief is not a matter of discussion.

177.       CANLI
5084 posts
 23 Mar 2008 Sun 07:36 pm

Quoting vineyards:

So the consequences of whose opinions have we been suffering in the form of misunderstandings, protests and eventually personal attacks?

For my own part, I wouldn't like anyone to call me "zindik", "infidel" or whatever just because I don't believe in one of the established belief systems. It is none of their business, this is a matter of belief and belief is not a matter of discussion.



+1

İts not acceptable that you call what you dont think its logic in someone's belief bulls**t and you call it freedom of speech and ask others to be tolerant about it !
A belief is a personal choice ,and if you respect someone surelly you respect his choice of believing!
Like it or not,what we believe is holly to us!
You cant seperate from respecting person and respecting his thoughts !
thoughts ,believes are those who are forming persons,and making everyone is different from one another.

To respect someone's belief is much different that believing in his believes..!
Respect is must in healthy communities,there is not such thing that respect a beliefe must be earned !

Actually,if you read something,and you think its logic,and its normal,and its what should people do in their lives...so,that means you dont believe in it ?!
You just respect it ?!!!

Respecting a belief means,even tho i dont accept it,and i dont see logic in it,but i respect it,because that is what other people believe in...but i do NOT believe in it.

freedom of speech,or any kind of freedom has a limit,you are not living alone in some forest,we live in community with otheres,so you have your freedom,and others have their freedom also
Your freedom limit is not the sky,freedom limit is when the other person's freedom begun.
We are not in some kind of a jungle to hit on each other and call it freedom,and expect others to accept it,and even complain they are not tolerant when they dont,surely they wont,because they have same freedom as you have !

Human live to learn 'wise one of course' so i believe we have seen many examples of communities which their people think their freedom's limits is the sky,and also,we have seen many examples of communities which their people have no freedom !
And i believe both are not good examples tho !

So,i guess its time to learn something new in between ?!

PS:you is generally speaking.

178.       karpusqueen
0 posts
 23 Mar 2008 Sun 09:08 pm

Quoting thehandsom:



'any beliefs which are not true or valid will only be revealed through criticism.
What this means is that if people care about the truth, they should not be afraid of criticism.
if they are true then this will strengthen them; if they are wrong, then they will are free to follow new beliefs.'



If theological debate/discussion is your bag, there are plenty of specialist forums out there in cyberspace waiting for you with bated breath. There are an infinite number of papers and books out there which give testament to the fact that the area of theology is an extremely complex one.

Truth, belief and faith are a matter for the individual. Although I haven't read every single post on the site, in the months that I've been a member, I haven't witnessed anyone from a religious faith try to convert another member. Quite right too because that is not the purpose of this site. Similarly, this site should not be used as a tool to attempt to discredit someone's faith/belief system.

Quoting vineyards:


No one is supposed to prove anything to anyone.



Absolutely.


Quoting vineyards:


I wouldn't object to discussions about specific details pertaining to a belief system.

For example,
What do you think about after life, how is it described in your faith?
What is the purpose of Asure day?
Why do you fast?

Above questions indicate a geniune curiousity about Islam.
They should be more than welcome and actually provide an excellent opportunity for cultural exchange.



I agree. eg. fasting is practised in different faiths and it would be very informative to discuss origins/reasons for it.

Quoting thehandsom:



I really reccommend religious people should be more tolerant about 'anything' regarding their religion.
When you dont, it really looks like you are inline with the man in the cave who threathened denmark about the cartoons, with the people who were happy with fatwa about salman rushdie or with the people who tried to burn aziz nesin alive because he wanted to publish satanic verses in Turkish.



It has often been said here on TC that Muslims (I assume also that you mean Muslims rather than 'religious people' because you refer only to Islamic based examples in you final sentence.) are intolerant of 'criticism'. IMO it's more of a reaction to the feeling of being under constant 'criticism' with little recognition of the good that is done in the name of Islam. In the past, there have been relatively few negative posts about other world faiths, so some members tend to reach their own conclusions.

In the past, members have stated their atheist or agnostic stance, as is their right. I haven't seen many instances of anyone criticising it, attempting to discredit it, contemplating the truth of it or trying to persuade them otherwise.

I believe everyone has a set of beliefs by which they choose to live. Whether they be God conscious and/or Self conscious is a matter for the individual.

With regard to rules and moderating. Vineyards, I don't think the team can be seen to have different thresholds of what is and isn't acceptable practice on the site. I really feel that the team needs to take an agreed collective and consistent approach to moderating, otherwise your expectation of members is as clear as mud.

p.s. This is the first time I have produced split quotes (the blue boxes) so I am oblivious to any criticism I may receive for my above opinions.

179.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 23 Mar 2008 Sun 09:37 pm

Quoting vineyards:


For my own part, I wouldn't like anyone to call me "zindik", "infidel" or whatever just because I don't believe in one of the established belief systems. It is none of their business, this is a matter of belief and belief is not a matter of discussion.


-2
This is an idea.
But, I believe, to criticize religion is a human right, and a moral and intellectual duty to others.
Without criticizing religion, there would have been no religious reformation.
There would have been no enlightenment.
I do not think people must not give up free speech, intellectual honesty on the altar of religious love.
Or because they will be labeled and called as "infidelf".
And that is my idea.

180.       vineyards
1954 posts
 23 Mar 2008 Sun 11:04 pm

Discussing religion on an intellectual level demands first of all the presence of a proper platform. Do you think this is the right platform?

Furthermore, if we are hoping to reform a religion, we must really be concentrating on the principal tenets of it. Do you think people are really bringing up such matters?

Today, almost everyone knows everything about every culture, every religion. There is no need to advertise a religion; just be a good believer and stay away from harm's way. If most believers act like that, others will become curious about what causes those people to be so enviable. To my knowledge, Gandhi did not openly invite anyone to become a Buddhist but a Western journalist J. H. Holmes after spending so many years scrutinizing his life dubbed him the greatest man since Jesus and Buddha. So, many Europeans have been converting into the Buddhist faith ever since.

Don't you think the proper way to reform our faith is through setting a good example to others with our stance in life, with our philosophy and the strength of our personalities and not through criticizing a prophet based on unestablished facts about his life?

Last but not least, I do not like when people greet foreigners using religious words. Everyone believes in something, you believe in yours and I in mine. The relationship between people believing in different faiths should be personal not communal, especially in this age.

When a group of French tourists visit a town in our country as a group of people, they do not act like a group of missionaries in search of souls waiting for salvation. They visit that town because they are interested in the people living in there. They spend time there for enjoyment mainly, they do not mind about who believes in what. The people using these forums are not very different from those tourists. They are a group of people who are linked to Turkey for some reason. They are interested in Turkish people, turkish culture and yes, Islam but I suppose no one is really interested in letting this service turn into an arena where religious wars are fought.

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