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ANDIMIZ! (Student Vow)
(179 Messages in 18 pages - View all)
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100.       KeithL
1455 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:31 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting KeithL:

No. Not even close. Using the extreme to make a point.


Oh, ok, that's good . Keith, I would like to see you trying to understand our point of view before you decide to disrespect it. Seriously, isn't that what you are asking us to do? You are not going to do any good for Turkey or Islam if you disrespect views you disagree with. If you display understanding, the other side will also make that effort.



What have I disrespected?

101.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:37 am

Quoting KeithL:

What have I disrespected?


From your previous posts I understood that you don't object to free speech, you just don't respect all views. I think you were referring, among other issues, to the Andimiz thread where you didn't agree with some people criticizing the vow; or to our criticism of Alameda. What I am asking you is to try to understand the criticism of your views before you decide to disrespect it. I think I had some good points in my criticism of nationalism, and I me and others are open to a conversation about it, yet, you sometimes seem to just slam us.

102.       KeithL
1455 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:43 am

Did I say anyone here should not have the right to question? All I have done is disagreed. Slam??? Maybe. You have never slammed anyone here?

As I have said countless times. Turkey is at a crossroads now. The nations that form G-7 and are permanent UN Security members did not become stable democracies over night. They went through the same identity struggles early on as Turkey is going through now. This is why I do not hold Turkey to the same standards as I hold to western nations.
Do my views conflict sometimes because of this? Yes.

103.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:50 am

Quoting KeithL:

Did I say anyone here should not have the right to question? All I have done is disagreed. Slam??? Maybe. You have never slammed anyone here?

As I have said countless times. Turkey is at a crossroads now. The nations that form G-7 and are permanent UN Security members did not become stable democracies over night. They went through the same identity struggles early on as Turkey is going through now. This is why I do not hold Turkey to the same standards as I hold to western nations.
Do my views conflict sometimes because of this? Yes.


Ok, I suppose I just disagree with some of your comments.. that's all.

104.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:59 am

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:

u misunderstood my sentence. "Real Turks" implies the ppl who identify themselves as Turk, love livin in Turkey, defending Turkey... etc, regardless the ethnicity. that's all... where's the racist seep?

If u read the expressions of Atatürk carefully, u can clearly infer that there's no existence of "westernization". Atatürk's aim is to reach the contemporary civilization level and then to exceed it. The key of reaching and exceeding is "work, work, work efficiently, and follow the developments in the modern world." Besides, being aware of the ambushes to the motherland. that's all...

civilization can be located in the West or East. It doesnt matter. Our aim is to exceed the civilization level, and westernization can't provide Turkey to be successful, but Turkey should follow the developments in the West. Look what Atatürk's saying:

"Acılar gördük. Bunun sebebi, dünyanın vaziyetini anlayamadığımız içindir."

Atatürk used the nationalistic movements in French Revolution and adapted it to the new state. So, Turkish ppl became "Millet" and they gave up being "Ümmet". Ümmet sisteminden, millet sistemine geçtik böylece. Hence, it's very healthy for the Turkish ppl due to the becoming of "Millet". that's all...

Atatürk's expressions and revolutions can't be understood and emphasized without reading, making investigations from the creditable sources.

Ülkücü ppl betray the nationalism structure of Turkey, and no relationship with Atatürk's nationalism style. So, we dont have to take them seriously. They are the shame for Turkey and they always make agitations and chaos in Turkey. the last work of them is killing Hrant Dink. it's a shame for Turkey and dirt the image of Turkey in the world. I'm still castigating that event...

that's all..


What if some people are unhappy in Turkey because the state oppresses them? What if some people love the country, but disagree with the dominant ideology, the dominant party... etc. I think that you should not force people to conform to one ideology, people are individuals and they should be free to be who they want to be in their own country. Then they will love it..

105.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 01:32 am

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:


that's all..



Though I dont agree with all you say (I have to give credit to Catwoman about a certain degree of individualism opposed to one ideology), I find your discussing-style pretty refreshing Lately, everybody who has tried to 'convince' 'us' of how good Atatürk is, how good nationalism is, was just getting offended and made unfriendly remarks about what we can or cannot say. But I think you expressed your opinion about this very well, and Im really glad that you are against those ülkücü too, that killed Hrant Dink. I was in Ankara at the time that it happened, and I remember the news very well.

106.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 08:17 am

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:

I wanna add smth to this subject:

"Türk'e kefen diken karşısında bizi bulur."

This student vow is our traditional features of Turkish educational system and applied in primary schools in order to strenghen the identites of the Turkish posterities. whether u like it or not, u have to show respect this tradition.

the most powerful states in the world are nationalist states. I lived in Paris and Marseille for a long time and observed that French people are very nationalistic, and they reject and ignore the people who are from different countries, and they believe that French nationalism help them to evaluate their identities as well.

Hence, nationalism is a necessity for the states to protect their ID's. Essentially, French Revolution in 1789 was occured in the centre of Europe, so what happened?

the nationalism style of Atatürk is very peaceful, creative, helpful, and innovative. Regardless the ethnic origin, if someone who likes his/her flag, country, culture, he/she's a Turk, that's all... Turks, Kurds, Cerkes, Laz, Armenians, Greeks in Turkey are all sisters and brothers and we live in Turkey peacefully, without any discriminative provocations. However, USA and EU makes agitations to divide the boundaries of Turkey with using ethnic identities in Turkey, and we are aware of these ambushes. (Real Turks must be aware of these kinda ambushes).

Whether u accept or dont accept, you must show your respects to our national identities. Turkey is belonged to Turks, that's all...

look what Atatürk's saying:

"Dünyanın bize hürmet etmesini istiyorsak evvela bu hürmeti, hissen, fiilen, fikren bütün hâl ve hareketlerimizle gösterelim. Bilelim ki milli benliğini bulmayan milletler, başka milletlerin esiridir."

22 March 1924.

any questions?



wellcome
another person here that Im agree.I dont know how long u will tolerate themu will write well as u did...but dont try to explain all well coz they will choice some sentences in your post and start to criticise...cos they just look for some words to attack...whatever u do, they will criticise...my advice u is being relax)

ps. they also will send u PMs to control of u or give u advices about their opinion...this site's is Turkish class but dont belive, here is the forum that u can write everything about Turkey but cant write any about , western etc...coz it is strictly forbidden..wowwwwwwwww

107.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 09:16 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:


that's all..



Though I dont agree with all you say (I have to give credit to Catwoman about a certain degree of individualism opposed to one ideology), I find your discussing-style pretty refreshing


DK don't be so sure about this. I see very similar writing style to a former, deleted member who used to end his posts with "profound" statements....like "got it", "that's enough" and "mind your own business". If it's true, it is just a matter of time before we see the REAL person behind the posts. Time will tell.

108.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 11:35 am

Quoting KeithL:


USA
Canada
England
France
Germany
Russia
Japan
China



I don't think Canada is nationalistic. I doubt Canadians are brainwashed every day to believe that they are the greatest nation in the world and whatever the government does it must be obeyed. I also doubt minorities are looked down on. Also, I may be an ignorant but how many terrorist attacks were there recently?

Japan is more business-oriented. I think it's lost lots of its nationalism to materialism.

England, France and Germany are so mixed racially and nationally that it's hard to speak about the German/British/French spirit. Of course, all these countries have organisations and supporters of nationalism but it's a bit like flogging a dead horse. I doubt they'd eagerly fight for whatever cause their country tells them to. Were they really nationalistic, they'd make their minorities assimilate even if it meant using force.

I'm not sure about China but Russia definitely is nationalistic. Both these countries have long history of not respecting individuals who were more like slaves to the country that citizens. Sacrificing millions was never a problem for their wielders. Now, we may of course debate whether you'd like to live in a country where you cannot decide about yourself if your government appointed fate for you. China regulated birth control and riots turned into massacres. Human rights are still not respected there. And there's the issue of Tibet. If this is what makes you call China a great nation then I'm speechless.

Russia is said to have to be ruled by a strong hand. It has been so for centuries. Nationalism as concept has been used by their rulers to justify their imperialism. Russia is strong, unpredictable and dangerous. However, being the biggest country in the world and controlling a huge part of natural resources like oil or gas it has a massive influence on the world. If any other country dealt with Chechnya the way Russia did, the consequences would be different. Russia is not a democracy, it's an Empire and it will remain so regardless of the name it will take. Are you sure you'd like to live in a country where your voice doesn't matter? Right...

And then there's the USA. Sure it has to enforce national feelings - they have no common roots and their history is just over 200 years old. To create a sense of unity in a country like that you need something to keep them together. Why is the US media the most influential in the world? Because it's one of the means of controlling the nation.

Nationalism isn't really putting national flags in your front yard. It's not repeating a pledge every morning. It's what you are taught to believe in. It's what you read in the papers. It's a country the welfare of whose is more important than the welfare of its folk. Nationalism is when you're taught hatred and you think it means love. It's creating a sense of constant fear, unease and being told that you need to make sacrifices to stop it. Then you send your children to war even if your country is not attacked. You tolerate executions not because that is what should happen to people who disagree with you, you tolerate them because you are forced to think they are your enemies. You let the government under your sheets because you are brainwashed to obey.

I have nothing against patriotism. I admire the people who gave their lives for me to be free. For me to speak Polish, not Russian or German. But loving your country does not mean not asking questions, challenging traditions and making changes. Those who don't progress, move backwards.

109.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 11:40 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:


that's all..



Though I dont agree with all you say (I have to give credit to Catwoman about a certain degree of individualism opposed to one ideology), I find your discussing-style pretty refreshing


DK don't be so sure about this. I see very similar writing style to a former, deleted member who used to end his posts with "profound" statements....like "got it", "that's enough" and "mind your own business". If it's true, it is just a matter of time before we see the REAL person behind the posts. Time will tell.


Well spotted GG..You might be right..
And apart from that his post has started with a well known racist/fachist saying:
"Türk'e kefen diken karşısında bizi bulur." actually, it is a softened version of the real one, which is "Türk'e Kefen Biçenin Ölümü Korkunç Olur !!!"
I did not find it refreshing at all!!

110.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 11:57 am

Quoting girleegirl:

DK don't be so sure about this. I see very similar writing style to a former, deleted member who used to end his posts with "profound" statements....like "got it", "that's enough" and "mind your own business". If it's true, it is just a matter of time before we see the REAL person behind the posts. Time will tell.



You read my mind, but then in any case this post was with an improved writing style And 'any questions' and the quote at the end, is exactly what made me think that way too

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