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ANDIMIZ! (Student Vow)
(179 Messages in 18 pages - View all)
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60.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:24 pm

Catwoman, we Turks criticize ourselves more than you know. We have been doing this for at least a couple of centuries.
Sadly, nothing gets better by criticizing when critics contain destructive elements.

For example, when someone implies that our oath is wrong because it contains racist, nationalistic elements then I am entitled to asking this question: why am I supposed to understand that oath the way you do? Why should I not use the word Turk whereas it means nothing more than a citizen of Turkey.

Ethnically, you can be a Kurd, Armenian or whatever but if you are a citizen of this country you are a Turk. You can call yourself an Armenian Turk but it is different from being an Armenian citizen living in Armenia. You need to serve this country. If you don't want to serve this country international laws permit immigration rights. If you feel loyal to Armenia, you are free to go and live there.

For my own part, I never thought about immigrating to the US or the UK because I never felt like serving American or British people or their intererests. I have always wanted to preserve my culture and values, and let me tell you I am very, very, very and very comfortable with a great majority of those values.

61.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:28 pm

About the list above about nationalism:
I have been living in the uk and the nationalism I have seen here is nothing to do with the nationalism in turkey.
And nationalism is dying in developed countries because 'being a citizen is more important' than being a nationalist.

62.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:41 pm

Thanks for the corrections, thehandsom. I will update my translation.

63.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:43 pm

Congratulations on you observations. These are your own observations. I always happily defended that we Turks don't have racist elements in our culture after hearing so many UK and Swedish people talk about skin colors, religious beliefs so frequently.

64.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:46 pm

I think an oath is nice, especially if it is one that remembers the one who made life of today possible for us yesterday. But what Gernas said, is what I heard of most teachers I have spoken to in Turkey, the majority of teachers and pupils does not feel anything when saying this. If I were to decide (which obviously Im not, but hey, this is all hypothetical anyway), I would start the schoolyear with this oath, maybe end it, and use it for special occasions like graduations.

I have to agree with thehandsom, it is not suitable for young children.

65.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:55 pm

It's pointless to try and debate which country is more racistic. I believe the UK to be a rather racistic place, and the Netherlands, which wasn't really racist let's say some 5 years ago, is going through a very bad development where people have discriminating thoughts about Islam and about foreigners in general. I would never say that there is no racism in the UK or in the Netherlands (I just talk about my two motherlands, I dont know really about the rest of Europe), but it is a fable to believe that the strong nationalism in Turkey, is not very close to racism. That doesn't mean that all who love the oath, are racists. But it means that racists generally love the oath.

66.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:58 pm

Quoting vineyards:

Congratulations on you observations. These are your own observations. I always happily defended that we Turks don't have racist elements in our culture after hearing so many UK and Swedish people talk about skin colors, religious beliefs so frequently.


I do hope that Turks are not racist, but I think a little bit of racism is in all of us and hearing Turkish people say that they are not racist is kind of similar to hearing Polish people say that they are not racist, even though there are practically no people of color in their countries.

67.       azade
1606 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:00 pm

+10000000 thehandsom right on spot.

It's horrendous to see "ne mutlu türküm diyene" written on every beautiful mountain in areas populated by kurds. I don't understand how people can be so brainwashed they refuse to acknowledge the truth behind turkish assimilation politics.

68.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:01 pm

Quoting catwoman:

even though there are practically no people of color in their countries.



Oh you reminded me something! Haha. We have many afro-americans and africans in the Netherlands. So Im used to live among all different skin colors, because theres Chinese,Turkish etc. too, next to pale white like me But once in Turkey we were having breakfast in my favourite place, and suddenly a black man came to help us. I have to be honest that it was really strange to see!

69.       Saskia1970
70 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:04 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

It's pointless to try and debate which country is more racistic. I believe the UK to be a rather racistic place, and the Netherlands, which wasn't really racist let's say some 5 years ago, is going through a very bad development where people have discriminating thoughts about Islam and about foreigners in general. I would never say that there is no racism in the UK or in the Netherlands (I just talk about my two motherlands, I dont know really about the rest of Europe), but it is a fable to believe that the strong nationalism in Turkey, is not very close to racism. That doesn't mean that all who love the oath, are racists. But it means that racists generally love the oath.



Are you attacking the feelings of British and Dutch people now? Should they feel insulted?

70.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:07 pm

Quoting Saskia1970:

Are you attacking the feelings of British and Dutch people now? Should they feel insulted?



Are you serious?

I am Dutch and British

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