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Fitna (a short movie about Islam in Europe)
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| 10. |
10 May 2008 Sat 11:11 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting geniuda: I have not seen the movie, but I think it seems to show Islam only from radicals' point of view. Lets not forget that not all Islam believers are radicals and not all are terrorists :-s |
I don't think this is a clip about Islam, it is a clip about islamisation of Europe. It is not meant to show all Islam, it is just meant to show radicals, what they do, what they base their actions on and how their ideology is being spread on all muslims.
So far I have no idea about non-radical muslims. I don't hear them anywhere, they are not condemning anything that's done by the "radicals", so apparently they quietly support the killings and hatred. |
I can not see anything such as 'islamisation of Europe' in Europe in generic term..
It is a pure scaremongering..
It reminded me BNP supporters in the UK saying that 'pakistani boys are doing this , doing that, raping white girls' etc.
Apart from that, nobody should be surprised why non radicals are quite.
Look at what happened after 9/11:
West (usa as the leader of west) made the islamic world soaked in blood.
Look at Afghanistan, look at Iraq, look at Palestine.
If the west is not feeling secure right now, it is the result of its actions in above countries.
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| 11. |
10 May 2008 Sat 11:18 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: I can not see anything such as 'islamisation of Europe' in Europe in generic term..
It is a pure scaremongering.. |
This is a claim, what's your explanation of it? It is not scaremongering because it is not speculating on what Muslims may do, it is ONLY reporting facts.
I agree that the political things going on in the middle east may contribute to the hatred of muslims against the west, but, that does not excuse anything that these people say and do in the west. What does Iraq have to do with the killing of Theo van Gogh for example? I think you have a point, but you are taking it to an extreme.
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| 12. |
10 May 2008 Sat 11:48 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting thehandsom: I can not see anything such as 'islamisation of Europe' in Europe in generic term..
It is a pure scaremongering.. |
This is a claim, what's your explanation of it? It is not scaremongering because it is not speculating on what Muslims may do, it is ONLY reporting facts.
I agree that the political things going on in the middle east may contribute to the hatred of muslims against the west, but, that does not excuse anything that these people say and do in the west. What does Iraq have to do with the killing of Theo van Gogh for example? I think you have a point, but you are taking it to an extreme. |
I dont think I am taking it to an extreme here.
I believe most of the blame about radicilisation of islam belong to the west itself.
Even al qaide/osama (and consequently 9/11) is the direct result of usa foreign policies (in afghanistan in 80s, middle east since isreal/palestine conflict etc)
There would not be a london bombing for example. There would not be people dying in spain if there was not iraq war or afghanistan war.
And modorate muslims would be swinging towards the radicalism as it is happening now.
Look at that clip..it is full of horrifying images. from 9/11, london, spain even british engineer's head chopping is there..
Possibly they would happen if the head of the west (usa) did not make all those mistakes..
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| 13. |
10 May 2008 Sat 11:58 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: I dont think I am taking it to an extreme here.
I believe most of the blame about radicilisation of islam belong to the west itself.
Even al qaide/osama (and consequently 9/11) is the direct result of usa foreign policies (in afghanistan in 80s, middle east since isreal/palestine conflict etc)
There would not be a london bombing for example. There would not be people dying in spain if there was not iraq war or afghanistan war.
And modorate muslims would be swinging towards the radicalism as it is happening now.
Look at that clip..it is full of horrifying images. from 9/11, london, spain even british engineer's head chopping is there..
Possibly they would happen if the head of the west (usa) did not make all those mistakes..
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I still think you are taking it to an extreme. We can debate how much effect western policies in the middle east have on the radical islamic sects, but undeniably, Islam sanctions massive violence and hatred. There are verses in the Koran that approve it. Maybe 9/11 or 7/7 wouldn't happen if it wasn't because of Israel or Iraq, but the desire for domination, hatred of "infidels" and apostates, hatred towards women... etc, lack of respect for freedom and the countries in which these Muslims live is not just because of the US, it has always been part of Islam and Islam has never changed these goals.
Ask saudi arabia which finances these radicals, ask what their purpose is and they will openly say that it's jihad.
It is possible that saudis are using average people's anger against the west to manipulate and get them on their side of radicalism and jihad.
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| 14. |
11 May 2008 Sun 01:34 am |
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Quoting catwoman:
but undeniably, Islam sanctions massive violence and hatred.There are verses in the Koran that approve it |
İslam said 'you have your faith and we have ours'
Tell me,how many Crusade in the world you know about ?!
Made by who ?
Under what flag ?
For what purpose ?!
That was in the past ? when Church was in control ?
Ok,let's talk about near past,and lovely present,and tell me about it
let me remind you
Great Britain,USA,France,İndia,Middle East,Vietnam,Palastin,Afghanistan,İraq
Which of them were the Muslims?
Who were following İslam ?!
Quoting catwoman:
but the desire for domination, hatred of "infidels" and apostates, hatred towards women... etc, lack of respect for freedom and the countries in which these Muslims live is not just because of the US, it has always been part of Islam and Islam has never changed these goals. |
Hatred towards women ?!
How was the women situation in Christianity again?!
How respectable they were ?!
What rights did they have ?!
You yourself have said before that women gain their rights when you have developed ,or renew Christianity !
No one can renew a religion but GOD !
lack of respect for freedom and the countries they live for ?!
They simply REFUSE to abandon their religion,their identities
So they have lack of respect ?!
Why jewish have the right to live and practice their religion in Western's countries and not Muslims?
Even you serve them their own food 'kosher' in your restaurants without being offended ?
Why İtalians,chineses are same,BUT NOT Muslims
And if they do,then they have LACK OF RESPECT !
İf they abonded their believes,if they became Muslims only by name,then they will show the respect that you mean?!!!
Why do you think that Muslim Kurds who are ACTUALLY Turkish citizens and free to practice their religion,their traditions their live in THEİR country should have their own identity seperate identity even AWAY from Turkish identity,and you think Turkish government is NOT fair about it,and should allow it
But...at same time Muslims in Western countries SHOULD be respectable to that country,and losing their identities ?!
Quoting catwoman:
Ask saudi arabia which finances these radicals, ask what their purpose is and they will openly say that it's jihad.
It is possible that saudis are using average people's anger against the west to manipulate and get them on their side of radicalism and jihad. |
Jihad ?!
Again,
Jihad means,to defend your country,your home,your family against invaders
İts NOT to invade or take over other countries
That what Jihad means in İslam
So,Yes,you are right,Saudi Arabia is making a good job in taking over UK ,USA,and all the Western countries,and SUCKİNG their funds and oils !
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| 15. |
11 May 2008 Sun 04:50 am |
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Catwoman, I`m really starting to suspect that you`re a brainwashed missionary. Do they theach you in school how your crusader ancestors were bloody terrorists who murdered millions of people for the sake of CHRISTIANITY, "THE TRUE RELIGION OF PEACE"?
Just one question for you? It`s very straight.
Can you just point out one single religion that has caused more cruelty and bloodshed than christianity?????
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| 16. |
11 May 2008 Sun 05:03 am |
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Quoting tamikidakika: Catwoman, I`m really starting to suspect that you`re a brainwashed missionary. Do they theach you in school how your crusader ancestors were bloody terrorists who murdered millions of people for the sake of CHRISTIANITY, "THE TRUE RELIGION OF PEACE"? |
 ama... when did I ever mention christianity, eh? :-S I'm starting to think you are a bit paranoid   I NEVER said that one religion is better then another, the only problem with islam I have is its hatred, intolerance, violence and barbaric behavior against women, what they call "infidels" and those who leave islam. I know and respect muslims who are good people, so yes, not all of them are the same, but unfortunately there is a lot that islam has to be held responsible for and so far, islam has no capacity to handle criticism. even look at yourself, have you watched that clip? have you criticized your fellow muslims for their barbarism? NO! your response was to instantly attack me!
Quoting tamikidakika: Can you just point out one single religion that has caused more cruelty and bloodshed than christianity????? |
the only one that can compete is islam and you know it :-S
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| 17. |
11 May 2008 Sun 05:17 am |
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Quoting catwoman:
ama... when did I ever mention christianity, eh? :-S I'm starting to think you are a bit paranoid I NEVER said that one religion is better then another, the only problem with islam I have is its hatred, intolerance, violence and barbaric behavior against women, what they call "infidels" and those who leave islam. I know and respect muslims who are good people, so yes, not all of them are the same, but unfortunately there is a lot that islam has to be held responsible for and so far, islam has no capacity to handle criticism. even look at yourself, have you watched that clip? have you criticized your fellow muslims for their barbarism? NO! your response was to instantly attack me!
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 who are my "felloow muslims"??? Nice try, but I`m not a Muslim. you talk about hatred, intolerance, and oppression and relate all these only to Islam but all of these you mentioned do exist in Christianity too in more violent ways. I posted a link for you take a look and tell me who is more intolerant and barbaric when given chance.
you`re really being funny, I asked if there is a more cruel religion than Christianity, not the ones that can compete with it. And the answer apparently is NOTHING.
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| 18. |
11 May 2008 Sun 05:58 am |
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Hmmm... nice talking to you!
Christianity USED TO be violent, but is not any more. Islam IS. Why do you have to compare islam to christianity anyway, isn't it bad enough what islam does by itself?
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| 19. |
11 May 2008 Sun 07:16 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Christianity USED TO be violent, but is not any more. |
if it`s not violent anymore who the hell killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Bosnia, Karabagh and Iraq? You don`t even care about them, right? Kill a Christian and that will make you a terrorist, kill a million of Muslims and you will get away with it.
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| 20. |
11 May 2008 Sun 10:16 am |
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Quoting tamikidakika: Quoting catwoman: Christianity USED TO be violent, but is not any more. |
if it`s not violent anymore who the hell killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Bosnia, Karabagh and Iraq? You don`t even care about them, right? Kill a Christian and that will make you a terrorist, kill a million of Muslims and you will get away with it.
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No matter how much you'd like to accuse Christians of being cruel, you'll never be right. Christians killed Muslims in Bosnia? Iraq? I thought it was the US and most of EU, not Christians. Hard as it may be for you to believe, but amongst those soldiers there were Christians, Muslims and Atheists. Probably a number of Pagans, some Satanists and Agnostics. You know why? Because it was not a religious crusade - it was a political aggression. Calling it a Christian killing spree is a lie.
You're right about Christianity being violent once. Not anymore. It's just based on false assumptions, just as every religion is in my personal opinion. I know Muslims love to go back to the Middle Ages, to crusades and all. But it is happening no more. You may argue that Europe is based on Christian laws, but they are just general ethical issues like don't steal or kill. I wrote a long post in another thread about it. To quote just a fragment:
"The rest of life is governed by Legal Systems of each country and those systems do not always follow the Commandments(e.g. Gay marriages in the Netherlands). Also, although adultery is a sin according to the Commandments, it is not a crime in the light of law. It is basis for divorce, but a person who cheats on their spouse is not legally tried for it."
So, please, don't justify political aggression by means of Holy War. It's not the case. And, answering your question about the bloodiest religion, it is Islam. Christians can stand criticism, no Christian country prohibits or punishes converting to any other religion, no Christian kills a guy who draws a satirical cartoon showing how Christianity is abused to kill. Oh, I forgot - there is a Christian organisation that is a well known terrorist group - KKK. But they're not really about religion, are they?
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