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Fitna (a short movie about Islam in Europe)
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30.       catwoman
8933 posts
 12 May 2008 Mon 05:19 am

Quoting armegon:

it seems now poles became expert on Islam(learning from Wilders maybe) after then Turkish history

hmmm, and they concluded Islam is the most violent religion


how sad. were you by chance one of those who were crying blood that we were "generalizing Turkish people" too much? I hope not all Turks are as simple minded as you are.

look dear, there is nothing magical about Islam or turkish history. it is something that everybody, in every country can read about, see and understand. history is about facts, so we don't need a turkish person to know turkish history. same with Islam. a person in Swaziland can read Koran, can read the news and see how Muslims behave, what they do in the name of their faith... etc. of course not all muslims are violent, but the ones that are do have support in their scriptures and are not condemned by the rest of the muslim world. these are facts.
I know you will jump on me now on some weird grounds and you will never respond to the point that I'm making, so help yourself and show us how you can insult me because you have nothing rational to respond to what I say.

31.       catwoman
8933 posts
 12 May 2008 Mon 05:33 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Wilders' film is filthy party propaganda for his racist political party. Catwoman, it may show facts, but when using facts for a certain idea, you color them. This was not made to show facts, Im afraid. This is to show there is no place for muslims in my country.

I dont have a positive opinion about any religion, yet, this is not about religion. This is about internal Dutch politics. Thank god my country was smart enough to see it was a worthless and useless film


That's interesting.. Can you explain this a little bit more? What kind of propaganda is this clip for? What kind of internal politics is this all about?
I don't think Wilders is trying to say that there is no place for muslims in Holland, this clip only says that there should be no place for THIS KIND OF ISLAM in Europe or anywhere else in the world.

32.       Saskia1970
70 posts
 12 May 2008 Mon 08:34 am

Quoting catwoman:

I don't think Wilders is trying to say that there is no place for muslims in Holland, this clip only says that there should be no place for THIS KIND OF ISLAM in Europe or anywhere else in the world.



Deli_Kizin is right. Wilders is extremely rightwing and yes, he does not want any muslim in Holland. Regardless of their type of faith (sunni, shi'i, ahmadiya etc) or level of faith, I mean no muslims who only go to mosque, no muslimas with scarf, no muslims who only read Koran, no muslims at all! He tried once to forbid the Koran (for sale or just be the owner of it) and even compared it with 'Mein Kampf' from Adolf Hitler. He also said that when you skip all the violent text from it, you keep less than a Donald Duck Magazine. He is constantly talking about islamisation of Europe and accused two members of the government of being 'invaders' (one is minister of state for social affairs, left wing and originally from Morocco, the other - a woman - is minister of state for habituation of newcomers, also left wing and originally from Turkey. Both of course have Dutch passports, speak the language fluently and both are not religious). He wants to send back born Dutch criminals but with Moroccon ancesters back to Morocco or Turkey (nothing about non-muslim criminals), he suggested that the police could shout bullets into the knees of Moroccon football hooligans (nothing about non-Moroccon hooligans!), he suggested to close all mosques in the country. He said there must be freedom of education but for at least 5 year no more islam-based schools. He wants an immigrationstop for people from Morocco and Turkey for 5 years etcetera.

He is scary! I think Catwoman, that as long as you don't know what really happens in Holland with Wilders and his obscure party you should refrain from words like 'I don't think Wilders is trying to say that there is no place for muslims in Holland'. You don't know this man and his followers. If Wilders got enough power, he would surely try to change the country into a no-no for muslims. Unfortunately his website is only in Dutch, else I could give you the link so you could read yourself.

33.       catwoman
8933 posts
 12 May 2008 Mon 09:14 am

Thank you Saskia for the explanation. You are right that I shouldn't make any claims for Wilders... :-S. I do agree with some of the things you mentioned though - for example, that there shouldn't be more then 5 years of islam based schools.
Removed from the internal dutch politics, I still think that this clip is fine, because it only shows facts. The things shown in the clip do happen and did happen and they are NOT OK. They should not be allowed anywhere.

34.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 12 May 2008 Mon 11:01 am

Quoting tamikidakika:



hmm ok nice reasoning. Then it was smn called Laden who killed 5 thousands of people. those who carry out honor killings are just some people whose names are x,y,z. Why are you accusing Islam?



Because the concept of "Jihad" that they presented in the media? because they called it the Holy War instead of a normal war? Because that's what they use to motivate suicide bombers?


Quote:

Do you even remember that Bush called the American army in Iraq "crusaders". and you expect me to believe in this lie that they are not commiting these crimes as Christians. Get over it.



Bush is a dick. I doubt he knows what crusades were in the first place. If you had read what I had written you'd have known that the US and EU armies are not Christian armies. There are Muslims, Pagans etc in them. So, sorry, calling them Christian is a lie.


Quote:

btw, I`m wondering why you skipped Karabagh. It`s maybe because you don`t want to see what your angelic Christian/Armenian brothers did.



Armenians aren't my brothers. And neither are Christians. I'm an atheist and find all religions just means of brainwashing people and getting their money.I skipped Karabagh because I know nothing about it. And, contrary to you, I don't like writing about things I have no idea about.

Besides, following your line of reasoning. If a Christian woman slaps a Muslim guy, it's a war of religions lol Just come to terms with the fact that Christian domination in the civilised word is over. I'm sure Christians are not happy about it, but it's a fact. Us aggression is morally wrong and only about material profits. It has nothing to do with religion. Do you seriously think that Americans would support a claim that it's a mission to save the poor Muslim souls that live in sin because they're not Christian? Then you don't know how careful Americans are with religious issues. It is a proclaimed secular state.

35.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 12 May 2008 Mon 11:27 am

Quoting armegon:


it seems now poles became expert on Islam(learning from Wilders maybe) after then Turkish history

hmmm, and they concluded Islam is the most violent religion



lol, First of all, the word "Poles" is written with a capital letter. Though I'm sure that was just a slip of the finger, not something you did on purpose. That'd be too low, right?

Catwoman was right. You may hate it, you may like to follow your country's policy of sweeping dirt under the carpet, but you can't help it. People who are not Turkish do know Turkish history and people who aren't Muslims may have an opinion about Islam.

Of course, you may choose to think that a country that bans a site with videos hides no secrets about its past from its citizens. But it is your choice, not everybody's here. Just try to get a wider picture of the world and acknowledge that some people perceive things differently. Some people have access to materials you don't.

As for Islam being the most violent religion, I gave my reason for it. I also added that it is about nowadays, but as usual you read only what you found convenient for yourself. Can you prove the otherwise? Can you find a religion that uses people with Down's syndrome as suicide bombers and lets them die with the word Allah on their mouth? Can you find a religion that STILL forces women into marriages they don't want?

You may argue that the real Islam isn't like that. Canli did it a lot of times here and I'm thankful to her for that. But it's unfortunately some people who use this religion for their own aims that make it so bloody. Whatever your religion is and whatever mine, we cant change the fact that it is Islam whose picture has been distorted and abused these days. Somehow Christians don't put up the "In God we trust" banners and don't go on a killing spree hoping to get 72 virgins after killing some Muslims. They're more busy trying to get control in Europe as its popularity is going down. Abortion, euthanasia, gay marriages and many more contradict the Christian way. But there you are trying to prove that a religion that can't even get its primary domain respect its basic laws has enough power to motivate people to go on a crusade. Please. Think again.

36.       armegon
1872 posts
 13 May 2008 Tue 04:48 am

Quoting catwoman:

were you by chance one of those who were crying blood that we were 'generalizing Turkish people' too much?


If wanting fairness and justice means crying to u, yes i cried, and this expression shows ur level and how u moderate forum. Arent you the one calling Turks racist?

Quoting catwoman:

I hope not all Turks are as simple minded as you are.


Standard catwoman’s provoking personal insults like “you are not open-minded, simple-minded etc”. You can hope Turks are simple minded as u called Turks before racist. Yah u are the omly one here with complicated-minded because you are unbalanced catwoman sorry to say that, post of yours on this thread also shows how u sincere just like u said “muslims spread hatred” in one post putting all them in one bag then u said in other post “but not all muslims” , felt like it is said with compulsion unsincerely. This thread also shows ur intention.

Quoting catwoman:

look dear, there is nothing magical about Islam or turkish history. it is something that everybody, in every country can read about, see and understand. history is about facts, so we don't need a turkish person to know turkish history. same with Islam. a person in Swaziland can read Koran, can read the news and see how Muslims behave, what they do in the name of their faith... etc. of course not all muslims are violent, but the ones that are do have support in their scriptures and are not condemned by the rest of the muslim world.


But it seems to me u do not know much about Islam except some hearsays or the ones u learned from western propogand. As for the Turkish history part u only see or read the one side of the story or u choose what u want to believe and ignore others, so i can clearly say u are biased. In addition, for example according to quote above how do u know muslims do not comdemn so-called muslims like Al-Quaida or Taliban. How about protesting in west about crimes against muslims?

Quoting catwoman:

I know you will jump on me now on some weird grounds and you will never respond to the point that I'm making,


I always respond to ur points but u always ignore them because u do want to believe what u want, u always follow ur nose.

Quoting catwoman:

so help yourself and show us how you can insult me because you have nothing rational to respond to what I say.


You showed urself first, and i use my right above, actually till now in this forum i have never insulted anyone except some allusions i remember. Ok catwoman you know everything, we know nothing, btw if u dont mind, are u Leo?

37.       armegon
1872 posts
 13 May 2008 Tue 05:04 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

First of all, the word 'Poles' is written with a capital letter. Though I'm sure that was just a slip of the finger, not something you did on purpose. That'd be too low, right?


Ohh sorry about that,i modified it immediately. I think it became habit for me because everyday im writing 9mtr Rooftop pole, 6mtr Rooftop pole or Rooftop poles etc .

Quoting Daydreamer:

Catwoman was right. You may hate it, you may like to follow your country's policy of sweeping dirt under the carpet, but you can't help it.


What are u talking about? I hate nothing, I only do not like, people talking as they know everything just like u done above about my country’s policy. If u are talking about the todays policy, i do not like them also, actually ithought there is no policy of Turkey after 1950s.

Quoting Daydreamer:

People who are not Turkish do know Turkish history and people who aren't Muslims may have an opinion about Islam.


You are now talking general. Im talking about you not people, for example u mentioned Jihad and tried to mention 72 houri(not virgin) here but actually you only know and want to believe what u heard from mass western media , any anti-islamic source . Im sure CANLI got bored, writing the same things here just like before i was doing. But u still do not consider any of them and stay bounded and brainwashed.

Quoting Daydreamer:

Of course, you may choose to think that a country that bans a site with videos hides no secrets about its past from its citizens. But it is your choice, not everybody's here. Just try to get a wider picture of the world and acknowledge that some people perceive things differently. Some people have access to materials you don't.


Do you think people learning their past from youtube? And Did i say something like youtube ban is necessary for Turkia? Thats only ur illusion, It seems you get a wilders picture of world.

Quoting Daydreamer :

As for Islam being the most violent religion, I gave my reason for it. I also added that it is about nowadays, but as usual you read only what you found convenient for yourself. Can you prove the otherwise? Can you find a religion that uses people with Down's syndrome as suicide bombers and lets them die with the word Allah on their mouth? Can you find a religion that STILL forces women into marriages they don't want?


And you mean Islam is violent nowadays not in past, interesting , Islam is always same but people not. Did Islam be violent after 911? Then there was no suicide bombers before? Western media is pumping all these crap to people and make people hate eachother. Look, Islam does not approve any of them above so these are not the fault of religion but the people who dont know their religion well or some other factors. I said this many times here, some religous leaders use religion for their benefits mostly political, then is it the false of İslam or the people? People also patching traditions to religion just like u patched above about forced marriage.

Quoting Daydreamer:

Whatever your religion is and whatever mine, we cant change the fact that it is Islam whose picture has been distorted and abused these days.


For me nothing changed about Islam, for u, i guess u knew nothing about Islam before and now u are brainwashed by ur media that all evil is Islam.


Quoting Daydreamer:

Somehow Christians don't put up the 'In God we trust' banners and don't go on a killing spree hoping to get 72 virgins after killing some Muslims.


The ones who killed millions of muslims are called christian countries, does not matter it was a religious crusade or political as a result people killed. At the same time you accuse muslims making an holy religous war(please do not mention again western media’s understanding of Jihad) but not political. It is not fair.

Quoting Daydreamer:

They're more busy trying to get control in Europe as its popularity is going down. Abortion, euthanasia, gay marriages and many more contradict the Christian way. But there you are trying to prove that a religion that can't even get its primary domain respect its basic laws has enough power to motivate people to go on a crusade. Please. Think again.


You should also think twice while calling a religion violent and please try to allege more logical claims like “Islam was not violent before but it is most violent religion now”.

38.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 13 May 2008 Tue 10:58 am

Ooofff I ave no idea why I even bother to reply since, again, you read only what you want, not what I write.

Quoting armegon:


Im talking about you not people, for example u mentioned Jihad and tried to mention 72 houri(not virgin) here but actually you only know and want to believe what u heard from mass western media , any anti-islamic source . Im sure CANLI got bored, writing the same things here just like before i was doing. But u still do not consider any of them and stay bounded and brainwashed.


I didn't try to mention the virgins, I did mention them. And, using English, I used the official translation of the word.
I'm glad you bothered to read my discussions with Canli. Oh, wait a second - you didn't. That's why you don't know that she actually did change my view about some aspects of Islam. Namely - the theoretical and practical side of it. She pointed out that what is written and how it is interpreted differ. No big surprise, actually, that's the case with every single religion.

Quoting armagedon:


Do you think people learning their past from youtube? And Did i say something like youtube ban is necessary for Turkia? Thats only ur illusion, It seems you get a wilders picture of world.



And where did I write that? :O I just draw a conclusion that if your government control what you watch, they might also be controlling what you read. And how did you manage to put Wilders (with a capital letter) into the You Tube story? I don't recall agreeing with him or showing any kind of appreciation towards him. On the contrary, I agree with what Deli_kizin wrote about him, not only in this thread but in the one dedicated to him a long time ago. Why can't you just respond without insulting or making snap judgements?

I know you'd like to see all westerners brainwashed and toeing one line. Sorry. Too much individualism here. You know, it's actually allowed!

Quoting armagedon
And you mean Islam is violent nowadays not in past, interesting , [/QUOTE:



How do I put it so that you understood...NO. Where did I write THAT? I just wanted to avoid the usual "Christians were violent in 1200 so we're not the only cruel religion" argument. I wanted to draw a line between the past and nowadays and speak only in terms of modern world. I had no idea you'd interpret it as a declaration of peace-loving Muslims who suddenly felt like killing for a change.

Quoting armagedon:

Islam is always same but people not. Did Islam be violent after 911? Then there was no suicide bombers before? Western media is pumping all these crap to people and make people hate eachother. Look, Islam does not approve any of them above so these are not the fault of religion but the people who dont know their religion well or some other factors. I said this many times here, some religous leaders use religion for their benefits mostly political, then is it the false of İslam or the people? People also patching traditions to religion just like u patched above about forced marriage.



And here's the part where I absolutely agree with you. And I put it in my previous post as well - I was talking about the distorted image of Islam, the abused religion used for controlling people. What western media do is showing only the fanatic face of Islam. The forced marriages I wrote about, the suicide bombers etc. But why shouldn't they? Radical Islamists are part of this world and, as the terrorist attacks showed, constitute a threat. Was the West really that biased and anti-Islam, all Muslims would be kicked out of Europe or the US, Muslims wouldn't get all those extra rights that they get in secular states. Why doesn't it happen? Because people know that a group of people using a religion as an excuse for murder is not the whole truth. Westerners go to liberal countries with Islam being the main religion and they see what Islam is like over there. That is not that radical, means-faced, wired fanatic. Too bad, people like you, still accuse us of seeing just one face of Islam. We don't. Read, think, think again and then post lies.

Quoting armagedon:

Quoting Daydreamer:

Whatever your religion is and whatever mine, we cant change the fact that it is Islam whose picture has been distorted and abused these days.


For me nothing changed about Islam, for u, i guess u knew nothing about Islam before and now u are brainwashed by ur media that all evil is Islam.


How do you know what I had known about Islam before it went to the media? Oh, right...you assume that all westerners live in the dark, are hardly literate, know nothing about other cultures and religions. Then, should a fad come, they immediately become experts on media releases. I've heard Buddhism is next.

Yes, your logic is stunning. Criticising US aggression in Iraq I meant Islam is all evil. I just couldn't put it across as clearly as you did.



Quoting armagedon:

The ones who killed millions of muslims are called christian countries, does not matter it was a religious crusade or political as a result people killed. At the same time you accuse muslims making an holy religous war(please do not mention again western media’s understanding of Jihad) but not political. It is not fair.


Are called Christian by whom? The last time I checked they were all secular, which can't be said about the Muslim countries. For the fifth (?) time - Christian countries with anti-Christian laws and differentiated religious strata are Christian. Is that what you're trying to say here?

Why do I believe that Muslims consider it a Holy War? Because this way, the propaganda works. This way religious leaders control them. West says - they're a threat to democracy (NOT Christianity) - they don't mention oil as that would not convince mothers to send their sons to die. The East says - they hate Muslims and we need to protect our religion. It's crap in both cases. It is about money and influence.Not about religion. But poor young Muslims do believe that West hates Islam and do everything to protect it. West doesn't give a damn about Islam. It's Muslims themselves that gave Islam a bad name. West only used what they gave them.

Quoting armagedon:


You should also think twice while calling a religion violent and please try to allege more logical claims like “Islam was not violent before but it is most violent religion now”.


lol I recall saying Christianity used to be violent but not anymore, but Islam being peaceful? Where did I say it? lol

Footnotes:
1. Using the words Islam and Muslim, I meant the radical wing unless stated otherwise. I found footnote was necessary or I'll fall victim of misinterpretation again.

2. To make things clear:
- I don't find all Muslims the same
- I see the difference between radical Islamists and common Muslims
- I believe Islam is abused by both radical Muslims and Western media
- I disagree that being a westerner means you learn only from the media. Were it so, all claims about The West made by people form the East would be wrong as well. In effect, nobody would know anything.
-I'm tired of proving I am not a camel and of saying one and the same thing over and over again hoping some people will accidentally read it and not distort it so that it matches their ideas

39.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 13 May 2008 Tue 02:55 pm

Quote:

Quoting Daydreamer:

-

Quoting armegon:


Im sure CANLI got bored, writing the same things here just like before i was doing.


That's why you don't know that she actually did change my view about some aspects of Islam. Namely - the theoretical and practical side of it. She pointed out that what is written and how it is interpreted differ. No big surprise, actually, that's the case with every single religion.




+1

I find it a rather unfriendly remark towards CANLI. It is a fact her ideas differ from mine, her clothes do too () and we may even disagree lots on certain subjects. But for me too, she has given me a good insight in Islam, not the way it is practiced by extremists, not the way it is non-practiced by Muslims who are only muslim theoretically, but the way an intelligent woman lives it. Even then we can disagree, but we agree to disagree and I enjoy changing thoughts with her un such subjects.

40.       magnadea
0 posts
 13 May 2008 Tue 03:33 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

+1

I find it a rather unfriendly remark towards CANLI. It is a fact her ideas differ from mine, her clothes do too () and we may even disagree lots on certain subjects. But for me too, she has given me a good insight in Islam, not the way it is practiced by extremists, not the way it is non-practiced by Muslims who are only muslim theoretically, but the way an intelligent woman lives it. Even then we can disagree, but we agree to disagree and I enjoy changing thoughts with her un such subjects.



I completely agree! I love a good argument with Canli because you can then move to another subject and the argument is completely forgotten

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