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Fitna (a short movie about Islam in Europe)
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| 40. |
13 May 2008 Tue 03:33 pm |
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Quoting Deli_kizin: +1
I find it a rather unfriendly remark towards CANLI. It is a fact her ideas differ from mine, her clothes do too ( ) and we may even disagree lots on certain subjects. But for me too, she has given me a good insight in Islam, not the way it is practiced by extremists, not the way it is non-practiced by Muslims who are only muslim theoretically, but the way an intelligent woman lives it. Even then we can disagree, but we agree to disagree and I enjoy changing thoughts with her un such subjects. |
I completely agree! I love a good argument with Canli because you can then move to another subject and the argument is completely forgotten  
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| 41. |
13 May 2008 Tue 05:39 pm |
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Thank you guys,i enjoy debating with you too
Quoting armegon: Im sure CANLI got bored, writing the same things here just like before i was doing. But u still do not consider any of them and stay bounded and brainwashed.
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True armegon,i got bored,very much too,and sometimes dont join in debats
But with people who are debating for the sake of debating,passing time,their minds are set for what they think,and they dont want to understand otherwise,but they are bored and just want have some fun
Those i dont bother with anymore,let them think or say what ever they want,at all cases it wont harm me nor my religion what they say,or what they believe,and certainly i dont wait for their aproval over anything regarding my religion
İn few words,i dont care less,so i dont bother!
But in the other hand,there are some members who you also enjoy debating with,you correct some info if they got it wrong,try to explain the logic,and also understand how do they think,what do they understand about you,also you know that there are some people there who are still capable of thinking and not brainwashed by their media ,they are welling to know and understand about you not just condemning you like others !
And with such members,you dont have to rebeat yourself,what you have talked about before,you dont do it again 'i dont do it,dont need to much too'
Because they listen,even if they dont agree,as same as you listen too even you dont agree
And that is what makes the debating nice with them
As Deli has said,we agree on disagreeing
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| 42. |
14 May 2008 Wed 11:32 pm |
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Sorry for late response, i went to a business trip
Quoting Daydreamer: I didn't try to mention the virgins, I did mention them. And, using English, I used the official translation of the word. |
There is no official translation of the word “hoor-houriâ€, some translated them as “companions†or “maidens†or “spouses†or “gorgeous companions with big eyes†but the literal meaning of “hoor†is white/pure/crystal clear. According to Quran it can be both male or female. So it applies to both men and women.
Quoting Daydreamer: I'm glad you bothered to read my discussions with Canli. Oh, wait a second - you didn't. That's why you don't know that she actually did change my view about some aspects of Islam. Namely - the theoretical and practical side of it. She pointed out that what is written and how it is interpreted differ. No big surprise, actually, that's the case with every single religion. |
Did i say CANLI changed ur views of Islam? I just only pointed out what she mentioned, is futile because you do not consider or want to understand them .
Quoting Daydreamer: And where did I write that? |
Didnt u mention in ur quote below that banning youtube is hiding secrets of a country about its past. And i asked do you think people are learning their past from youtube? Anything weird?
Quoting Daydreamer: Of course, you may choose to think that a country that bans a site with videos hides no secrets about its past from its citizens. |
Quoting Daydreamer: I just draw a conclusion that if your government control what you watch, they might also be controlling what you read. |
It maybe happened in past but now no one can control what u read because of net. About the ban of youtube, i also got angry. But as far as i know , it is asked to site owner to remove that videos but got no response to this request. Then one citizen sued the site. But it is known u can also access that site in other ways because there is no blockage in country exit.
Quoting Daydreamer: As for Islam being the most violent religion, I gave my reason for it. I also added that it is about nowadays, |
Quoting Daydreamer: Why can't you just respond without insulting or making snap judgements? |
Where did i insult in my post? It was a just a allusion. I thought u think like wilders, anything wrong? Thats only my impression according to ur posts in this forum. If it is wrong, you do not need to offend, and i learned this now . I didnt read what u wrote about wilders before.
Quoting Daydreamer: I know you'd like to see all westerners brainwashed and toeing one line. Sorry. Too much individualism here. You know, it's actually allowed! |
No not like that. I see many enlightened westerners. Actually i have friends from europe who i continually contact.
Quoting Daydreamer: How do I put it so that you understood...NO. Where did I write THAT? |
Just see what you said in below quote, İslam is being violent nowadays, i think u know the meaning of nowadays. If u say “it is about nowadays†, it is one of the prospectives that will understood like that.
Quoting Daydreamer: As for Islam being the most violent religion, I gave my reason for it. I also added that it is about nowadays, |
Quoting Daydreamer: What western media do is showing only the fanatic face of Islam. The forced marriages I wrote about, the suicide bombers etc. But why shouldn't they? Radical Islamists are part of this world and, as the terrorist attacks showed, constitute a threat. Was the West really that biased and anti-Islam, |
But it is not the fanatic face of Islam, it is of face radicals who are using Islam. Also muslims are part of this world, i doubt they show something good about real muslims, if u watch US news channels, u can understand what i mean. As for the West being biased, i can say yes absolutely, but thats my impression.
Quoting Daydreamer: all Muslims would be kicked out of Europe or the US, Muslims wouldn't get all those extra rights that they get in secular states. Why doesn't it happen? |
Muslims went there to gain money, most of them are from poor countries, and Europe countries need their workforce to live Europeans beter life, they do all the bad jobs, be sure that if they do not need them, they will be posted immediately.
Quoting Daydreamer: Too bad, people like you, still accuse us of seeing just one face of Islam. We don't. Read, think, think again and then post lies. |
I do not accuse anyone, thats how i recognize you on this forum according to ur posts. So please check your words carefully about calling me lier, because you gave that impression to me.
Quoting Daydreamer: How do you know what I had known about Islam before it went to the media? |
you do not read carefully, lady. What i wrote there, i began the sentence with “i guessâ€.
Quoting Daydreamer: Oh, right...you assume that all westerners live in the dark, are hardly literate, know nothing about other cultures and religions. |
No, not like that, u did the same thing what u accused me of, thats ur made-up, my sentiments only comprises warmongers like wilders and who make people eacother hate.
Quoting Daydreamer: Then, should a fad come, they immediately become experts on media releases. I've heard Buddhism is next. |
Havent u already confessed that western media shows only the radicals? That means u are also expert on media releases . Ahh i forgot you have many expertises.
Quoting Daydreamer: Yes, your logic is stunning. |
Same is valid for u, i sometimes thought u are playing naive.
Quoting Daydreamer: Is that what you're trying to say here? |
I tried to say people mostly muslims are killed, massacred in the middle of Europe or in Iraq or any country invaded but we dont see enough response from the west countries who are the defenders of Human rights, when muslims killed Human Rights suddenly forgotten, and people see this double standards.
Quoting Daydreamer: It's crap in both cases. It is about money and influence |
Agreed, surprisingly.
Quoting Daydreamer: West doesn't give a damn about Islam. It's Muslims themselves that gave Islam a bad name. West only used what they gave them. |
Its again in both ways.
Quoting Daydreamer: I recall saying Christianity used to be violent but not anymore, but Islam being peaceful? Where did I say it? |
I think i explaned this
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| 43. |
15 May 2008 Thu 12:11 pm |
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Quoting armegon: Sorry for late response, i went to a business trip |
No problem, I hope it went good
It's pretty hard to respond to your post after it is cut in one-liners. I'll do in in bulk if you don't mind.
1. The 'Where did I write that' quote referred to You Tube's educational mission, not the fact that it was banned. You asked if I though that people learn about their past from You Tube and I wondered where you had got that idea from. To make things clear, I don't think You Tube is an educational site. I believe it's for entertainment. I didn't say that banning it had anything to do with hiding past events. I just think that a country that bans a site because somebody disliked one film, is a country that may be also controlling access to documents about past (or forging them). You live in a country that, apart form its natural beauty, has lots of issues that are surprising to other countries. Banning You Tube is just an effect of your government's policy. You also have article 301 to help it. The thing is, media and speech control are powerful mechanisms. And only a body that has something to hide has to look for means of controlling speech. Speculation is called treason and the tool for that is the article 301. An allegedly individual claim about You Tube results in a national ban. It is not really important that you can find a loop hole and still watch it, what is important is the fact that you government dared to do it. It shows how superior and in power they consider themselves. And it is dangerous as it is just a step away from dictatorship. You're saying that your state does not control what you read. How do you know? You mean, they just control what you watch and leave the rest up to you? What about Pamuk? I'm not debating here whether he was wrong or right, it's not the matter. Was he free to write whatever he wanted in Turkey or was he controlled and judged?
2. About Canli's presentations of Islam, I actually said that I had both understood and considered them. I even added that she had changed a lot about my idea of Islam. That's why I don't understand why you insist on saying otherwise. I say 'Canli changed my ideas' in one post and in the next you go 'What she said is futile because you don't understand/consider it.' Read and understand
3. As for the insulting part - yes, it did insult me to be accused of supporting Wilders. Just as it did insult me many times in this forum to be called a terrorist supporter, which I am not. I am everything but radical. And I wonder which posts of mine led you to believe I was Wilder's supporter.
4. I do know the meaning of nowadays. I'm sorry if my attempt to compare contemporary situation rather than past confused you. I did that on purpose (not confuse but refer to nowadays) as I wanted to avoid the abused crusades argument and focus on natural progress of religions.
5. I'm glad we agree on something
6. Yes, there are many Muslims in Europe, but many of them live off social benefits and are unwilling to integrate. The hostility you're talking about does not stem from the fact that they are Muslims but from the latter. The less a group integrates, the more hostility it provokes. In contemporary Europe the workforce flow is so big, that more countries are in favour or restrictions than unlimited intake of immigrants.
7. I'm sorry about the word 'lies' it should have been 'oversimplification.' My bad.
8. Even if you speculate, there must be something that gave you that idea. I'm curious on what grounds you think that I had known nothing about Islam before 9/11
9. I'm sorry, I didn't quite get that part about being an expert on media releases. I just wrote my observation about media showing what is likely to cause a reaction. They show fanatics because it sells. For the same reason they show murders and wars. I thought it was obvious.
The Buddhism part was meant as closure to the 'all westerners are stupid' sarcasm that was meant to show what your reasoning looks like to me. Besides, I am not an expert on anything. I used to be an expert on semantics but that was ages ago and I forgot most about it  The fact that I have an opinion does not make me an expert, does it?  I've never claimed to be one anyway.
10. Could you give me an example of my illogical reasoning? I'd appreciate it - you know, a person learns all life long. In your case it was saying that I find Islam the root of all evil as a result of being brainwashed by my media, all that after I have repeatedly stated my opinions about the US aggression. Also why the fact that radical Muslims distort the image of Islam makes me illogical? Let me refer to the most trustworthy (for me) source of info about Islam here - Canli. She's said so many times that how Islam is practised differs in different countries. Some demand things not demanded by Quran. I wonder why restating it makes me illogical. Do you mean that Islam's picture is not distorted by people saying that they follow Islam but actually do things other Muslims don't approve of? I'm sorry, this part got me lost.
11. Where are Muslims killed in Europe? For all I know it's them who kill - like Teo Van Gogh's murder. Or demonstrations in Paris. Cf point 6. The Iraq war is not supported by many of EU countries. Those who support it, do it because of their alliance with the US. If you read about what societies feel about it, you'll see that most people don't support it. Also, there are military trials for soldiers who break the code there.
12. I hope I made myself clear this time.
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| 44. |
16 May 2008 Fri 01:15 am |
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Quoting Daydreamer: No problem, I hope it went good |
Thank you…
Quoting Daydreamer: It's pretty hard to respond to your post after it is cut in one-liners. I'll do in in bulk if you don't mind. |
No problem, i will do the same and try to give short replies.
1) It seems you sticked the law 301, let me remind u same kind of laws exists in European countries just look at Italy for example and 301 is also changed now. If u wanna see stunning laws, it is better u to search in European countries, as an example saying; there hadnt been anything called Armenian genocide, surprisingly banned in European countries who are so-called the castle of freedom like French & Austria. Actually i think Turkey exaggerated this freedom of speech issue, every day u heard a state or government member or also in Parliament insult the basis of this country and nothing happenned to them. In addition banning of that site has nothing to do with the government. I guess u begin to think that im one of the supporter of this government, actually not, i can clearly say that this government is the puppet of US and Europe as i said many times here, they became superior by the help of them just they have supported radicals before. And again i think ur comments sounds naive to me, because todays government and Pamuk are on same boat. As for the books and writings of Pamuk, as far as i know his books are publicly sold in country. And about media issue, this government recaptured most of them, so u cant criticize them basically, i think u do not follow well Turkish inside policy, this government is fighting from the beginning with judgement, military and all the basis of this country so Europe should look after them well, they do everything that Europe and US wants.
2) Its good that CANLI changed ur views but i mean to say from the beginning that i cant feel it from ur posts. I think it is clear now.
3) Sorry for that. But as a note same insults made many times to Turkish members of this and they cannot get any excuse.
4) OK…
5) Same here
6) hmmm integrate, i began to dislike this word after “democratizingâ€. Simply what will they integrate? They can live their life how they want, if they do not break any laws of that country or disturb any other people, right?
7) No problem, OK…
8) I think i explained this, it is an inference from ur posts . I thought u learned terms from media because if u know something before, u dont write what western media parroting all the time.
9) I think there had been a misunderstanding , anyways…
10 ) I explained this, i said illogical because of your comment “it about nowadaysâ€. No, Islam is not distorted by people, Islam is the same, the only problem is ignorance of people who dont know their religion and the political or religious leaders using this to gain power, its my point from the beginning.
11) I was talking about Bosnia. UN was watching when people were being killed, I remember one Dutch General who was very good at watching.
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| 45. |
16 May 2008 Fri 02:51 am |
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I am not sure about your defence about article 301 and the way you look at the changes Turkey is trying to do to its consutition right now.
I guess you are supporting one of these strange groups which try to associate the changes to the consitutition to sevr.
That article, the way it has been implemented in Turkey is a SHAME for every Turk.
That law has been working for making the hit list for ultra nationalists in Turkey. It was ambiguous, confusing, open to interptretation, cloudy, vague.
The prosecuters were following all the intellects and what they were saying in order to find something to bring the court cases. And they were thinking of 'saving the honour of the nation' when they were doing their patriotic jobs.
Of course, some politicians say that 'ah they have the same
in europen countries'.
Well..It is not entirely true.
I quite like know how many court cases opened against its intellects in half way decent europen countries for insulting 'britishness/germanness/polishness etc'.
We should have changed those anti democratic laws (many from the army times from 1983) by ourselves.
Those changes are necessary for us , for Turkish people primarily. Not for Europeans!!
And I still dont get the hatred people feel about Orhan Pamuk..
Is a Turkish person not allowed to say what he said?
How annoying that is!!
And about Islam and Canli's views..
I am sorry but I can show you many many surets from Kuran here and your only defence will be 'wrong interpretation/translation' for them.
Canli is a bit optimistic and she is telling her interpretation. So as the guys in Afghanistan!!
Islam needs reform..
'wrong interpretation' as a defence is not good enough..
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| 46. |
16 May 2008 Fri 04:46 am |
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Quoting thehandsom: I am not sure about your defence about article 301 and the way you look at the changes Turkey is trying to do to its consutition right now. |
Im not trying to defend the law, im just pointing out the double standards.
Quoting thehandsom: I guess you are supporting one of these strange groups which try to associate the changes to the consitutition to sevr. |
Which group? I do not support any group, i only tell my opionions. And about the sevr, u cannot blame people to think like that when they see the double standards of EU or maps of middle east which published in US military journals, simply people do not trust and believe their sincerity. So mr thehandsom which strange group do you fall into? the group of flatterers?
Quoting thehandsom: It was ambiguous, confusing, open to interptretation, cloudy, vague. |
Agreed. It should be stated clearly.
Quoting thehandsom: I quite like know how many court cases opened against its intellects in half way decent europen countries for insulting 'britishness/germanness/polishness etc'. |
It is not our point here i think…
Quoting thehandsom: We should have changed those anti democratic laws (many from the army times from 1983) by ourselves. |
Agreed but by ourselves, i think we do not need anyone to teach anything by meddling in our internal affairs.
Quoting thehandsom: And I still dont get the hatred people feel about Orhan Pamuk.. |
I do not mind Pamuk, he can do whatever he want but not provoking people.
Quoting thehandsom: I am sorry but I can show you many many surets from Kuran here and your only defence will be 'wrong interpretation' for them. |
I am sorry but i can show you refutations to them and then you will come with new questions. So it is better for u to research, actually you can find ur answers from net, if u make a good research. If u are interested, i can give u somelinks . Islam do not need reform as u cant change Kuran but for sure people needs.
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| 47. |
16 May 2008 Fri 05:25 am |
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Quoting thehandsom:
And about Islam and Canli's views..
I am sorry but I can show you many many surets from Kuran here and your only defence will be 'wrong interpretation/translation' for them.
Canli is a bit optimistic and she is telling her interpretation. So as the guys in Afghanistan!!
Islam needs reform..
'wrong interpretation' as a defence is not good enough..
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Wel handsom,when we discuss İslam rules i dont give MY interpretation !
As you know,rules in İslam are fixed,as in any religion,forming that religion and making distinguish from the other.
And also,as you may know,explaining religion rules is a big responsibility,not only regarding to other people but infront of ALLAH
Thats why İmam...the one who study religion has very high position infront of ALLAH also have very big responsibility to explain things right or he will be asked about it infront of ALLAH
As Muslim i know you know this very well
So i would APPERİCİATE if you dont say İ am telling MY OWN interpretation !
When i do give personal opinion i say so,other wise i search everything before i say it,or else i say i dont know about it,because i cant afford telling something in behalf of ALLAH not right !
Anyway,thx for comparing me by the guys in Afghanistan!
Nice touch thank you !
Ohhh,btw,can you tell me when ALLAH will send Jepril 'Holly spirit' again to REFORM İslam ?!
Sure a rule from ALLAH only ALLAH will change it not human or else Muslims wont follow
Of course you dont expect us to follow another human who just decided to REFORM our religion !
Ama Mohamed SAV was the last prophets and he is already died !
So obviously you know something we dont know...
So can you tell us how and when ALLAH will send Jibril again for REFORMİNG ?!
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| 48. |
16 May 2008 Fri 05:27 am |
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Quoting armegon:
I am sorry but i can show you refutations to them and then you will come with new questions. So it is better for u to research, actually you can find ur answers from net, if u make a good research. If u are interested, i can give u somelinks . Islam do not need reform as u cant change Kuran but for sure people needs.
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+1
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| 49. |
16 May 2008 Fri 06:06 am |
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Quoting thehandsom: Islam needs reform..
'wrong interpretation' as a defence is not good enough..
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+infinity 
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| 50. |
16 May 2008 Fri 10:03 am |
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I think Handsom The Hairy said everything about your points referring to 301 and Pamuk. I find nothing else to add as he's right.
And Islam...Canli says there's one Islam, only one possible way of interpretation that is right and it needs no reform, which you agree with. What would you call the countries that punish men and women for having a coffee together or those where men are free to sexually assault a woman if she is without male company or those where converting is considered a crime? Aren't they officially Muslim? Aren't they justifying their actions with Quran verses? To me they act differently than most of the Muslims I know. Now, if we call them radical, it means that they are closest to the right interpreting of Quran, doesn't it? (Webster's definition of radical is: "Of or pertaining to the root; proceeding directly from the root")
So, either there's more than one Islam (in the sense of school and/or interpretation) or those radicals are right and all the rest lives by liberal rules and, in effect, don't follow the word of God the way he'd like that.
Now, tell me, who is right - radicals or the other group. And is there a body that decides about it?
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