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Wife beating in Islam - the woman is totally isolated
(129 Messages in 13 pages - View all)
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1.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:43 am

A short conversation of Arabic (Lebanese) women about this problem

Wife beating

2.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 09:41 am

Shocking! Especially that part about the police...I also watched the video it was a response too. Not really less clear in its message.

How to beat your wife

Do people really listen to crap like that?

3.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 10:00 am

Well, if you start with the assumption that a woman is inferior, less then human, a slave of the man, all the rest follows to make a nice, coherent gender apartheid.

4.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 10:06 am

You're right. A kind of social acceptance. Still it gets on my tits

5.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 10:13 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

Still it gets on my tits


... and it should..

6.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 04:04 pm

When an entire society "covers" women making her less than human and it is called "protecting" her....when an entire society accepts this and defends it...how can anything ever change. Women in these societies are not even allowed to have an IDENTITY. It's a hideous reality!

7.       magnadea
0 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 04:47 pm

Women should always be covered. Men are natural leaders and women are supposed to take care of them and the children. The man provides for the family and therefore has the highest status. The women's job is sex, providing food, child care and supporting her husband. The husband has a busy, stressful life and it is only natural that he does not want to spend it being jealous of other men looking at his wife. Similarly, it is acceptable if he sometimes finds other women for sex, because he earns such recreational activity by working so hard for his family.

It is acceptable for a man to beat his wife if she fails in her duties to him. The man is the money-earner and the wife should be as dedicated to her duties as he is to his job. If she fails in this duty, punishment is a good way to teach her.

It is about time women came to their senses and stopped trying to be so independent.

8.       MrX67
2540 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 04:49 pm

only weaks and fearfulls can beat a woman,yes pity thats a social reality and wound of some cultures and i believe that thats only a personality matter..how to love your wife isn't better sound instead of how to beat ur wife????

9.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:01 pm

Quoting magnadea:

Women should always be covered. Men are natural leaders and women are supposed to take care of them and the children. The man provides for the family and therefore has the highest status. The women's job is sex, providing food, child care and supporting her husband. The husband has a busy, stressful life and it is only natural that he does not want to spend it being jealous of other men looking at his wife. Similarly, it is acceptable if he sometimes finds other women for sex, because he earns such recreational activity by working so hard for his family.

It is acceptable for a man to beat his wife if she fails in her duties to him. The man is the money-earner and the wife should be as dedicated to her duties as he is to his job. If she fails in this duty, punishment is a good way to teach her.

It is about time women came to their senses and stopped trying to be so independent.



OK, Today I am quitting my job! You're so right! I am putting my tent on as we speak. I will try to be a good wife from now on. I have learned my lesson. Thanks for the verbal smack down! Can I have another?

10.       magnadea
0 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:05 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

OK, Today I am quitting my job! You're so right! I am putting my tent on as we speak. I will try to be a good wife from now on. I have learned my lesson. Thanks for the verbal smack down! Can I have another?



Good girl
And..no more internet. There is too much temptation and sin and you are a married women!

11.       MrX67
2540 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:05 pm

sure there r planty samples about that,but really not easy to understand blaming a whole culture about bad samples???

12.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:05 pm

Quoting magnadea:

Quoting Elisabeth:

OK, Today I am quitting my job! You're so right! I am putting my tent on as we speak. I will try to be a good wife from now on. I have learned my lesson. Thanks for the verbal smack down! Can I have another?



Good girl
And..no more intenet. There is too much temptation and sin and you are a married women!



I am now enrolling in the TC Witness Protection Program. lol

13.       magnadea
0 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:07 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

I am now enrolling in the TC Witness Protection Program. lol



It is not very successful
thehairy always seems to spot the "oldboys"

14.       magnadea
0 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:10 pm

Quoting MrX67:

sure there r planty samples about that,but really not easy to understand blaming a whole culture about bad samples???



I think you are missing the point! There will always be men who beat women. However, the numbers will vastly increase in a culture which not only supports it, but actively ENCOURAGES it!!!

Perhaps when we see Islamic countries treating beating of women as a crime, we can take your comment more seriously

15.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:10 pm

Quoting MrX67:

sure there r planty samples about that,but really not easy to understand blaming a whole culture about bad samples???



I think there is more than enough evidence that this is more than a "few bad samples". We are talking about a society at large when the police force is BOUND BY LAW not to help its citizens who are being beaten. Do you not understand that the laws in these countries PROTECT the abuser? MrX, I don't think you will be able to sugar coat this one with your peace, love and tolerance.

16.       magnadea
0 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:11 pm

Hmmm neyse...where were we? Ahhh yes the TCWPP

17.       MrX67
2540 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:14 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

Quoting MrX67:

sure there r planty samples about that,but really not easy to understand blaming a whole culture about bad samples???



I think there is more than enough evidence that this is more than a "few bad samples". We are talking about a society at large when the police force is BOUND BY LAW not to help its citizens who are being beaten. Do you not understand that the laws in these countries PROTECT the abuser? MrX, I don't think you will be able to sugar coat this one with your peace, love and tolerance.

if aim to be against all negative things i'm always with you,but if aim to blaming a whole culture thats only a prejudice and to make bigger problems.Which healthy mind can defind such a thing and is it possible to think a life without women&men equality.So if aim to eating grape i don't have any word to say,but if aim to beating grape grower thats really not fair..

18.       MrX67
2540 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:17 pm

if the question could be ''wife beating on world'' i think would be nicer..And really very sad to see some intentional efforts for show another culture's only bad sides

19.       magnadea
0 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:21 pm

Quoting MrX67:

if the question could be ''wife beating on world'' i think would be nicer..



Grrrrrrrrr
Did you even read my reply to you? You can't make this one as "univeral" as you would like until Islamic countries make wife-beating a crime.

20.       MrX67
2540 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:24 pm

Quoting magnadea:

Quoting MrX67:

if the question could be ''wife beating on world'' i think would be nicer..



Grrrrrrrrr
Did you even read my reply to you? You can't make this one as "univeral" as you would like until Islamic countries make wife-beating a crime.

not sure where you from but sound as if noone wife beating in ur country???and seems you busy with majority instead of main problem??

21.       magnadea
0 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:28 pm

Quoting MrX67:

not sure where you from but sound as if noone wife beating in ur country???and seems you busy with majority instead of main problem??



Do you ever listen to anyone else? As I said before, wife beating is in every country. It doesn't matter what religion people are, or who their god is, you still somehow find murder, theft, torture....

In all countries these things are considered crimes right? EXCEPT wife beating...which in Islamic countries is considered part of culture and is sometimes actively encouraged.

Please understand how upset we get!

22.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:36 pm

MrX, you fail to understand that in these countries, if a woman is beaten, the police will not help her, her family or neighbors will get in trouble for helping her....the entire culture is set up so that the woman is HELPLESS! Nobody is saying this doesn't happen anywhere else, but at least in the west, woman have some protection thru the police, there are shelters for battered women and resources for her to turn to...and certainly her family can help her. This doesn't occur in the countries these women were talking about.

Please keep in mind that the women in this clip are FROM THE REGION. This clip does not feature western women talking about women from the east. The women speaking are talking about PERSONAL EXPERIENCES!!!!

23.       MrX67
2540 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:49 pm

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!

24.       magnadea
0 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:55 pm

Quoting MrX67:

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!



Finally you speak your thoughts?

25.       Leelu
1746 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:56 pm

Quoting MrX67:

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!


I think you have fallen down and bumped your head!!! here let me help you
oooooooooooh I'm sorrrrrrrry I did not mean to"hit"you on the head with my rolling pin!!

26.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:59 pm

I think MrX will need to be the next candidate for TC Witness Protection.

27.       MrX67
2540 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 05:59 pm

Quoting magnadea:

Quoting MrX67:

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!



Finally you speak your thoughts?

its enough to fly's voice who understanding and its never enough voice of drum's who don't want to understand..

28.       Leelu
1746 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:03 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

I think MrX will need to be the next candidate for TC Witness Protection.

TCWP better get him quick then .. I see a stampede about to head this way after that remark lol lol lol

29.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:05 pm

Quoting MrX67:


its enough to fly's voice who understanding and its never enough voice of drum's who don't want to understand..


And which drum are you? The bass? Snare? Or perhaps the bongo.

30.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:15 pm

Quoting MrX67:

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!


what a sick comment

31.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:19 pm

What the heck is your problem? Arab women say that this problem is bigger in Arab countries than in non-Arab countries and you're disagreeing?

I guess somebody who says:

Quoting MrX67:

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!


Knows something about that

32.       MrX67
2540 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:21 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting MrX67:

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!


what a sick comment

ur all kindness on you again as always dear cat

33.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:27 pm

Quoting MrX67:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting MrX67:

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!


what a sick comment

ur all kindness on you again as always dear cat


thanks, but no thanks for your double faced kindness

34.       MrX67
2540 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:30 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting MrX67:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting MrX67:

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!


what a sick comment

ur all kindness on you again as always dear cat


thanks, but no thanks for your double faced kindness

double faced??how can you insult others this much easly?did you talk with me any word till today??

35.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:31 pm

MRX apologize immediately (and find a suitable excuse something like 'you were drunk/you did not know what you were typing/the weather was very hot/you were tired/you had a bad day/a brick landed on your head when walking etc)
You are not going to leave alive from this thread otherwise..
lol lol

36.       MrX67
2540 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:33 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

MRX apologize immediately (and find a suitable excuse something like 'you were drunk/you did not know what you were typing/the weather was very hot/you were tired/you had a bad day/a brick landed on your head when walking etc)
You are not going to leave alive from this thread otherwise..
lol lol

thats always pleasure to fight with agressive ones,no worries handsome brother...May be i didn't get main of this thread correctly,but i'm just against to prejudicies about different cultures,who can defind anything if its a shame,crime or out of mind???But we all have to prick pin to ourselfs while pricking packing needle to others..

37.       Leelu
1746 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:39 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

MRX apologize immediately (and find a suitable excuse something like 'you were drunk/you did not know what you were typing/the weather was very hot/you were tired/you had a bad day/a brick landed on your head when walking etc)
You are not going to leave alive from this thread otherwise..
lol lol

38.       Leelu
1746 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:41 pm

how does it feel now?

Quoting MrX67:

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!


39.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 06:42 pm

MrX you have been entered into TC Witness Protection Program....please register your new name. Might I suggest MrY68 or something along those lines? lol

40.       Leelu
1746 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 07:28 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

MrX you have been entered into TC Witness Protection Program....please register your new name. Might I suggest MrY68 or something along those lines? lol


that won't keep him safe after that comment .. lol lol

41.       KemAle
105 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 09:19 pm

Quoting Leelu:

Quoting thehandsom:

MRX apologize immediately (and find a suitable excuse something like 'you were drunk/you did not know what you were typing/the weather was very hot/you were tired/you had a bad day/a brick landed on your head when walking etc)
You are not going to leave alive from this thread otherwise..
lol lol



thanks for funny comment in this thread... ... it was definitely needed... hehehe

42.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 10:52 pm

Quoting MrX67:

i'm just against to prejudicies about different cultures,who can defind anything if its a shame,crime or out of mind???


you are just a naive person Mrx who is much more concerned with defending your "nation's honor" then with the reality of despicable truths that go on in lives of people in your country. as long as ignorant people like you keep on defending the "image" and refuse to be self critical, these beaten women have no hope.

43.       CANLI
5084 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 11:23 pm

Well,actually i dont know the Lebanese law..so i cant talk about it
But first of all Lebnon is NOT an İslamic country,the majority there is Christians so it is Christian country,and its law defiantly NOT İslamic law too
So i dont know how do you refer to it by İslamic country and take it like example
İf you chose İran or Saudi arabia i can understand,ama Lebnon ?!!!

Second,in my country where the majority are Muslims,it is a crime to beat the wives by law.
İf man start to beats his wife,at first neighbours dont call police,they try to fix it themselves,and STOP the man from beating his wife,or else they call the police who come and take the man to police station and raise a file against him unless wife forgive him and drop the case
So actually women can do more than just shouting and crying,if they choose!

So about police cant break in the house to save the woman...that is strange

44.       janissary
0 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 11:37 pm

I cant open this webpage (youtube?), it s banned. that s why, I wont write any comment about it but I want to contribute ur thread with a song



Seninle tattım ben her mutluluğu
Bırakıp gidersen bil ki yasamam
Ömrümden canımdan ne istersen al
Gülü susuz seni aşksız bırakmam

ÃœşÃ¼düm diyorsan güneş olurum
Yanarım sevginle ateş olurum
Dolarım havaya nefes olurum
Gülü susuz seni aşksız bırakmam

Gönlündeki derdi siler atarım
Ãœmit pınarıyla coşar akarım
Kış göstermem sana ben hep baharım
Gülü susuz seni aşksız bırakmam

45.       CANLI
5084 posts
 16 May 2008 Fri 11:55 pm

Quoting janissary:

I cant open this webpage (youtube?), it s banned. that s why


İts about comparing the women's stiuation in the West and in the İslamic countries
Saying in France the country of freedom there are 2 million women are beaten very hard 'brutal beating as in the translation there' in the year
And france is protecting women there by law in every way,but still they are beaten
They are french women not arabian nor Muslims
So how about women in Arab countries ?
They saying women in the West know their rights not like women in Arab countries
And police protecting them in the West but police dont protect women in Arab countries
Other woman said there was a man was beating his wife and neighbours called her father which he came and called the police,then police said he cant break in to help the woman !

That is what it is mainly about

46.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 17 May 2008 Sat 10:33 am

A Christian country? I checked 5 sources and all say that the majority in Lebanon are Muslims. Can you please provide me with your sources?

"The unwritten "National Pact" of 1943 stipulates that the President, the Prime Minister, and the Speaker of Parliament be a Maronite Christian, a Sunni Muslim, and a Shi'a Muslim, respectively. The 1989 Taif Accord, which ended the country's 15-year civil war, reaffirmed this arrangement, but resulted in increased Muslim representation in Parliament and reduced the power of the Maronite President. "

taken from http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27932.htm

47.       janissary
0 posts
 17 May 2008 Sat 12:39 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting janissary:

I cant open this webpage (youtube?), it s banned. that s why


İts about comparing the women's stiuation in the West and in the İslamic countries
Saying in France the country of freedom there are 2 million women are beaten very hard 'brutal beating as in the translation there' in the year
And france is protecting women there by law in every way,but still they are beaten
They are french women not arabian nor Muslims
So how about women in Arab countries ?
They saying women in the West know their rights not like women in Arab countries
And police protecting them in the West but police dont protect women in Arab countries
Other woman said there was a man was beating his wife and neighbours called her father which he came and called the police,then police said he cant break in to help the woman !

That is what it is mainly about



so? what do u want from me?

48.       CANLI
5084 posts
 17 May 2008 Sat 01:45 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:



Well,i've googled it to provide such link but also couldnt find
İts known this according to the lebanon law,because of the Christian majority,the presedent of the country be Christian,and prime minister Muslim
But as i was trying to get statistics about it,it said that they didnt do such survey since 1932
Maybe it has something to do with Palestinian refugees which changed the balance there since the İsrali-Arab war
Here at WİKİ said that '' The 2007 CIA World Fact Book, Lebanon entry, gives the following distribution: Muslim 54%, Christian 42% , other 4%. note: 17 religious sects recognized[40] The numbers per religion vary from time to time. [41].''
So acourding to this,you can estimate the Christian lebanon are more in number than the Muslim lebanon excluding the Palestinian
So yes,Lebanon mainly a Christian country not Muslim.

49.       CANLI
5084 posts
 17 May 2008 Sat 01:48 pm

Quoting janissary:


so? what do u want from me?



Actually nothing
İ was making you a favor

Quoting janissary:

I cant open this webpage (youtube?), it s banned. that s why

50.       MrX67
2540 posts
 17 May 2008 Sat 04:07 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting MrX67:

i'm just against to prejudicies about different cultures,who can defind anything if its a shame,crime or out of mind???


you are just a naive person Mrx who is much more concerned with defending your "nation's honor" then with the reality of despicable truths that go on in lives of people in your country. as long as ignorant people like you keep on defending the "image" and refuse to be self critical, these beaten women have no hope.

and you are very respectfull and peacfull one who looking at events with ur personal glasses...İf the point to be on side of trues and rights i bet i'm millions times better then you,but ur threats not only about critising somethings,u r enemy of a whole culture i think?..And i do really wonder if you are really sensitive about problems of ur culture as much as on other one???

51.       zhang ziyi
205 posts
 17 May 2008 Sat 07:11 pm

Only weak men beat women. This is what I always tell myself. Many low profile men tend to be proud of controlling wives by physical abuse.

52.       catwoman
8933 posts
 17 May 2008 Sat 10:06 pm

Quoting MrX67:

and you are very respectfull and peacfull one who looking at events with ur personal glasses...İf the point to be on side of trues and rights i bet i'm millions times better then you,but ur threats not only about critising somethings,u r enemy of a whole culture i think?..And i do really wonder if you are really sensitive about problems of ur culture as much as on other one???


sensitive people say "love live beating women"! please don't preach to me about sensitivity, ok?
In fact, I don't care about sensitivity to your culture, I am talking about facts and you are unable to accept/admit them because of your national pride. you should be ashamed of yourself for putting that before real lives and real suffering.

53.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 18 May 2008 Sun 10:22 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Shocking! Especially that part about the police...I also watched the video it was a response too. Not really less clear in its message.

How to beat your wife

Do people really listen to crap like that?




:-S I watched this too. It is sick that there are rules about how the man should beat his wife. And they KNOW it is something bad, because the first thing he says is that children shouldnt see it.

54.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 19 May 2008 Mon 03:08 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting MrX67:

and you are very respectfull and peacfull one who looking at events with ur personal glasses...İf the point to be on side of trues and rights i bet i'm millions times better then you,but ur threats not only about critising somethings,u r enemy of a whole culture i think?..And i do really wonder if you are really sensitive about problems of ur culture as much as on other one???


sensitive people say "love live beating women"! please don't preach to me about sensitivity, ok?
In fact, I don't care about sensitivity to your culture, I am talking about facts and you are unable to accept/admit them because of your national pride. you should be ashamed of yourself for putting that before real lives and real suffering.




what culture are you talking about??? What does this have to do with national pride and what do we have to admit? Your hatred makes you sound pathetic.


Don`t you have anything to say about the Kurds` honor killings btw. I`m sure you wouldn`t call this "oppression" as it`s done by those "oppressed" Kurds.

55.       catwoman
8933 posts
 19 May 2008 Mon 03:47 am

My hatred? I think you just cannot control your strong nationalistic feelings whenever you see any criticism, your nationalism makes you blind and makes you hate anybody who criticizes your country. It makes you illogical and batalistic. All I said is that MrX is unable to see the issue because he feels like his country is criticized and his own nationalism also makes him blind and dishonest and makes him, just like you, also NOT care about real people because nationalism is more important to you.

56.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 19 May 2008 Mon 04:05 am

Quoting catwoman:

I think you just cannot control your strong nationalistic feelings whenever you see any criticism, your nationalism makes you blind and makes you hate anybody who criticizes your country.



I don`t see any criticism here, you attack anything Turkish and label them however you want but you don`t put forth a logical argument backing them up.

I`m asking again; how does this issue relate to our national pride? and what do we have to admit?(as if we are hiding smt) Will you ever explain your argument or go on labeling people.

btw. you can act like you didn`t see that honor killings question for sure. It`s way too hard to handle for you.

57.       catwoman
8933 posts
 19 May 2008 Mon 04:12 am

Quoting tamikidakika:

I don`t see any criticism here, you attack anything Turkish and label them however you want but you don`t put forth a logical argument backing them up.


I decided to stop arguing with people like you, who are not looking for a conversation, but just want to express their hatred. What you said here is nonsense and I don't intend to reply to it or try to prove to you that I am not what you want to see that I am. I am not going to respond any more to people like you who are only looking for a fight and a bashing and swearing contest.

58.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 19 May 2008 Mon 04:26 am



Quoting catwoman:

I decided to stop arguing with people like you, who are not looking for a conversation, but just want to express their hatred. What you said here is nonsense and I don't intend to reply to it or try to prove to you that I am not what you want to see that I am. I am not going to respond any more to people like you who are only looking for a fight and a bashing and swearing contest.




look who is talking about hatred She is a Geert Wilders fan accusing others of hatred. what an oxymoron.(this word "oxymoron" is not a swearing catwoman, just to make sure you know)

and again you can continue acting like you didn`t see that honor killings question at all.

59.       catwoman
8933 posts
 19 May 2008 Mon 04:32 am

Look, you can continue to dish out accusations if it makes you happy. You can be sure you're not accomplishing anything with that other then showing me how much your hatred towards me is blinding you. And... just because you say something about my hatred, it doesn't make you correct, or just because you make fun of me saying that you act out of your hatred, doesn't make you right either. And... I don't have to answer any of your questions just because you are playing some childish games trying to challenge me or something... :-S Go ahead and have fun playing your nationalistic games, but be sure that nobody will respect you for that.

60.       armegon
1872 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 01:33 am

If you can manage to argue with MrX67 then there is no normal Turkish people except flatterers and admin, youll be able to converse with. MrX67 is the Jesus of this site . And you call him nationalistic lol

61.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 02:01 am

Quoting armegon:

If you can manage to argue with MrX67 then there is no normal Turkish people except flatterers and admin, youll be able to converse with. MrX67 is the Jesus of this site . And you call him nationalistic lol


That's weird cuz last time I checked, Jesus hadn't said it was ok to beat women.

62.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 02:23 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting armegon:

If you can manage to argue with MrX67 then there is no normal Turkish people except flatterers and admin, youll be able to converse with. MrX67 is the Jesus of this site . And you call him nationalistic lol


That's weird cuz last time I checked, Jesus hadn't said it was ok to beat women.


Jesus said that to his close friends. That is the reason why it was not recorded..

63.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 02:25 am

Quoting thehandsom:


Jesus said that to his close friends. That is the reason why it was not recorded..


Dork!

64.       armegon
1872 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 02:44 am

Quoting thehandsom:

Jesus said that to his close friends. That is the reason why it was not recorded..



he endured very well to all provokings, but at last he blowed up

65.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 02:55 am

Quoting armegon:



he endured very well to all provokings, but at last he blowed up


Hmmm, now I understand!!! We were talking about two different men named Jesus!!
I was talking about Jesus Christ and you must have been talking about Jesus the suicide bomber!!

66.       armegon
1872 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 03:16 am

Yeah you are right, you understand nicely, what we will do if you dont...

67.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 10:28 am

Quoting armegon:

Quoting thehandsom:

Jesus said that to his close friends. That is the reason why it was not recorded..



he endured very well to all provokings, but at last he blowed up


were there any provokings which I missed?
Surely, I would not miss if they had substance!!

68.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 10:36 am

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting armegon:

Quoting thehandsom:

Jesus said that to his close friends. That is the reason why it was not recorded..



he endured very well to all provokings, but at last he blowed up


were there any provokings which I missed?
Surely, I would not miss if they had substance!!



Hmmm..how come Handsom knows what Jesus said to his friends although it was not recorded. Also, how come he responds to the issue of provocation in the first person singular? Could it be that the hairy cover hides wounds on his ankles and wrists? And the sword-made (or was it pike?) wound on his chest?

69.       MrX67
2540 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 12:21 pm

Quoting armegon:

If you can manage to argue with MrX67 then there is no normal Turkish people except flatterers and admin, youll be able to converse with. MrX67 is the Jesus of this site . And you call him nationalistic lol

anlayamadım?? i'm just against to all prejudicies and i'm on the side of maximum tolerance.Sure i'm not to mad for defend any wrong thing,i'm just against to blame a whole culture about some wrong samples.How can a spesific country or a few bad samples represent a whole culture or belief??we all have to show more effort for creating a more peacfull world instead of to make deeper diversities and prejudicies...And again i want to replay critism sure needed and usefull for fix problems but away from all double standarts by to be all objective..

70.       armegon
1872 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 03:49 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

were there any provokings which I missed?
Surely, I would not miss if they had substance!!



Why do u think he shouted like below ?

Quoting MrX67:

long liveeeeeeee who beathing his wifeeeee and long liveeeeeee to all systems which supporting beating wife!!!!

71.       armegon
1872 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 03:50 pm

Quoting MrX67:

anlayamadım?? i'm just against to all prejudicies and i'm on the side of maximum tolerance.Sure i'm not to mad for defend any wrong thing,i'm just against to blame a whole culture about some wrong samples.How can a spesific country or a few bad samples represent a whole culture or belief??we all have to show more effort for creating a more peacfull world instead of to make deeper diversities and prejudicies...And again i want to replay critism sure needed and usefull for fix problems but away from all double standarts by to be all objective..



I agree MrX

72.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 20 May 2008 Tue 09:26 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting armegon:

Quoting thehandsom:

Jesus said that to his close friends. That is the reason why it was not recorded..



he endured very well to all provokings, but at last he blowed up


were there any provokings which I missed?
Surely, I would not miss if they had substance!!



Hmmm..how come Handsom knows what Jesus said to his friends although it was not recorded. Also, how come he responds to the issue of provocation in the first person singular? Could it be that the hairy cover hides wounds on his ankles and wrists? And the sword-made (or was it pike?) wound on his chest?



That's his other identity....theHoly!!

73.       alameda
3499 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 05:47 am

Quoting catwoman:

A short conversation of Arabic (Lebanese) women about this problem

Wife beating



Quoting Daydreamer:

Shocking! Especially that part about the police...I also watched the video it was a response too. Not really less clear in its message.

How to beat your wife
Do people really listen to crap like that?



You both post items from:

MEMRI

Issues of reliability and veracity

MEMRI is operated by a group closely associated with the Israeli intelligence organizations. Now, in an article in Haaretz, we find that the Israeli Army has sought to plant stories about 'terrorism' in the press, and

'Psychological warfare officers were in touch with Israeli journalists covering the Arab world, gave them translated articles from Arab papers (which were planted by the [Israel Defense Forces] IDF) and pressed the Israeli reporters to publish the same news here.' --Amos Harel, IDF reviving psychological warfare unit, Haaretz, January 25, 2005.

This should raise a question or two about the reliability and veracity of the stories peddled by MEMRI.

This is what Prof. Juan Cole had to say about this:

'So is MEMRI, which translates articles from the Arabic press into English for thousands of US subscribers, in any way involved in all this? Its director formerly served in… Israeli military intelligence. How much of what we 'know' from 'Arab sources' about 'Hizbullah terrorism' was simply made up by this fantasy factory in Tel Aviv?
As someone who reads the Arabic press quite a lot, this sort of revelation is extremely disturbing.
I also saw an allegation that British military intelligence had planted stories in the US press about Saddam's Iraq.
You begin to wonder how much of what you think you know is just propaganda manufactured by some bored colonel. No wonder post-Baath Iraq looks nothing like what we were led to to expect by the press, including the Arab press!' [3]

Another assessment:

If you rely on MEMRI for your knowledge of Arab discourse, you are really not informed. Arab public opinion, based on MEMRI's releases, is reduced or caricatured to either Bin Laden fans or Bush fans, while Arab public opinion is mosty a fan of neither people. --As'ad AbuKhalil [4]
Although widely used in the mainstream media as a source of information on the Arab world, it is as trustworthy as Julius Streicher's Der Sturmer was on the Jewish world. --Norman Finkelstein [5]

What's your game?

74.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 08:33 am

Quoting alameda:


What's your game?



What's yours alameda? Are you actually denying this is a legitimate issue????

75.       catwoman
8933 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 08:38 am

My question as well... so for alameda, if something is of jewish source it is completely wrong and has nothing to do with reality! lol

76.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 09:06 am

Oh, since Alameda puts it this way...Thanks to her now I know that it is the propaganda only, not how things are in the Arab world. Still, it's impressive how those Jews send women all over the world to complain about women's rights. I have to note it down so I won't forget - all the bad things that we hear about from the Arab world are made up by Jews. Starting from 9/11, till the issue of police not responding to women being victims of domestic violence.

So, consequently, if a Jewish source prints an article about synagogues being burnt down in Europe, they're merely exaggerating, right? Or, in other words, we can't rely on Western sources because they're manipulated. Then, Arab women discussing a sad issue are Jewish propaganda officers. Alameda - I've heard about world conspiracy theories but you seem paranoid

77.       alameda
3499 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 10:10 am

My dears, I was only pointing out just who and what your source was. It is what it is.

It appears MEMRI is, in fact, a propaganda machine. I question anything that propagates hate, disharmony and misunderstanding.

Although you may like to paint me as anti Jewish, that is not true. MEMRI does not represent Jewish people.

Just who they represent I don't know. My comment was regarding the credibility of MEMRI as they are hardly a reliable and unbiased resource.

78.       CANLI
5084 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 10:15 am

Quoting catwoman:

My question as well... so for alameda, if something is of jewish source it is completely wrong and has nothing to do with reality! lol



Quoting alameda:



You both post items from:

MEMRI

Issues of reliability and veracity

MEMRI is operated by a group closely associated with the Israeli intelligence organizations.


Well,that make things has a different turn actually !
İt doesnt say Jewish,that says Israeli intelligence organizations
BİG DİFFERENCE !
Do you think that İsraeli Defence has a very tender heart and defending Arab women's rights ?!!!!

79.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 10:28 am

Quoting alameda:



Just who they represent I don't know. My comment was regarding the credibility of MEMRI as they are hardly a reliable and unbiased resource.



I saw that the information in the right hand corner said "Translated by MEMRI" So, you're implying that since MEMRI is associated with Israeli intelligence and propaganda, they mistranslated what those people were saying? Or, you think they had these people at gunpoint and made them say such things?

I don't think Israeli organisations care about women's right in Arab countries. I wonder how the Lebanese police reacts in such cases. What if that material is true. Selective, biased but still true.

80.       CANLI
5084 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 10:43 am

Quoting Daydreamer:



I saw that the information in the right hand corner said "Translated by MEMRI" So, you're implying that since MEMRI is associated with Israeli intelligence and propaganda, they mistranslated what those people were saying? Or, you think they had these people at gunpoint and made them say such things?



İmplying one thing actually,it is NOT reliable
Translate write or wrong,had those people saying things or just broadcasting it....
Same ...NOT reliable

Quoting Daydreamer:


I don't think Israeli organisations care about women's right in Arab countries. I wonder how the Lebanese police reacts in such cases. What if that material is true. Selective, biased but still true.


Police Lebanese react in what cases ?!
Wives beatings ?
İ dont know about their law,but of course women's situations are not the best..that is true
How good or how bad,depends on each country,tradition,percentage of educated women there
But the question is
What is Israeli organisations aim out of this ?!!!

81.       armegon
1872 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 02:00 pm

Thank you for the research alameda

I didnt watch the videos,because at first i thought they are examples of the anti-islam propogand videos on youtube like other thousands of them.

82.       zhang ziyi
205 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 02:36 pm

It means that you have a closed mind and you fear everything that clashes with your world. It means you resist everything having no clue on subjects and having not investigated beforehand whatever you come across labeling any outside information as anti-Islamic.

Quoting armegon:


I didnt watch the videos,because at first i thought they are examples of the anti-islam propogand videos on youtube like other thousands of them.

83.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 02:41 pm

Armagedon - do you really think that women in Arab counties have as many rights that they can exercise as in, let's say, Europe? It is nobody's aim here to show that Islam is bad, Europe is grand. But you have to be blind not to notice huge differences as far as the approach to women goes. Of course, you may live a happy life thinking that all media lies and all are Israeli (or Jewish) propaganda. Well, they're not.

http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/3321/win13b.htm

"Personal status laws are governed by religious tribunals, thus making Lebanese women unequal not only to men but also vis-a-vis each other. For instance, since 1959, non-Muslim women are entitled to the same inheritance as male heirs, while to this day, most Muslim women receive only half of that. In addition, polygamous marriages are permitted within Muslim communities while they are prohibited by Christian courts."

"Perhaps the most flagrant discriminatory law strongly influenced by patriarchy is that pertaining to "honor" crimes, which pardons men for murdering a female relative caught in the act of adultery or premarital sex. If the murder is based on suspicion alone, mitigating circumstances apply. In addition, premarital sex is tolerated for men, while adultery is defined differently for men and women. Thus, a married man is guilty of committing adultery only if the sexual act takes place under his roof and provided that he confesses to it. If a husband admits to the act, but apologizes for it, he is usually pardoned, while the charges against a woman would not be dropped.

The punishment for an adulterer is one month to a year in jail, whereas the sentence for an adulteress is three months to two years -- that is, if the woman is not killed at the hands of her male relatives, in which case her real sentence is death. Women's groups have so far been unsuccessful in their efforts to repeal the criminal code condoning "honor" crimes due in large part to cultural mores which measure women's sexuality by a different standard than that of men."

Ghada Khouri [the author]is a Lebanese-born freelance journalist based in Washington, D.C.
Not credible as she's based in the USA, right?

And more about women in Islam

I don't understand why you're deciding to turn a blind eye to what goes on in the world...

84.       zhang ziyi
205 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 03:02 pm

I found a separate section for Turkey in the homepage of MEMRI.
http://www.thememriblog.org/turkey

I just did a little research on MEMRI and the sources like wikipedia confirms that this organization is indeed founded by the former Israeli Intelligence member Yigal Carmon.
To me personally it means that this organization know how to work in the Middle East and spy out real situations.

85.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 03:59 pm

Quoting alameda:

My dears, I was only pointing out just who and what your source was. It is what it is.

It appears MEMRI is, in fact, a propaganda machine. I question anything that propagates hate, disharmony and misunderstanding.

Although you may like to paint me as anti Jewish, that is not true. MEMRI does not represent Jewish people.

Just who they represent I don't know. My comment was regarding the credibility of MEMRI as they are hardly a reliable and unbiased resource.


If that was your only reason, you would not have made the final comment alameda. Again, you underestimate the intelligence level here.
You post nothing for a month and only come back to post your OWN propaganda.
Ohhhh but of course, YOUR source is without question, I'm sure.

86.       armegon
1872 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 04:27 pm

Bak sen , are u the new open-minded ?, unfortunately i do not expect an objective video from one who posts wilders video here , so i did not watch. Btw i watched enough of them and think no need to watch the ones here. Anything wrong Susie Wong?( lol became rhymed).
Having no clue, if u did care, i did not comment on videos, i only said i thought and alameda confrims this with the research. You came to a conclusion from my one-post here that i have no clue on subjects , really funny…

p.s: i will reply u later Daydreamer if i have time, btw my nick is armegon , not armegeddon…

Quoting zhang ziyi:

It means that you have a closed mind and you fear everything that clashes with your world. It means you resist everything having no clue on subjects and having not investigated beforehand whatever you come across labeling any outside information as anti-Islamic.

87.       CANLI
5084 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 04:58 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

I don't understand why you're deciding to turn a blind eye to what goes on in the world...


Daydreamer,
Dont mix everything together,if you do it will lead us to no where
Meaning,dont mix women's rights in arab countries,by women's rights in İslam
One of them is fixed,and the other should change
İf you mix them together,im afraid that means NOTHİNG will change
Because women's rights as they are in Qur'an is fixed,its our religion and that is the way we will have it and that is the way its going to be.
İm a woman,and i refuse to get the same inheritance as male heirs,because its Haram
Thats our religion and we have our logic.
But,in Arab countries women dont have their rights as they should too by İslam
And this should change
Mixing bothe of them together will lead us to NO change at all,because we wont change our religion.

88.       CANLI
5084 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 04:58 pm

Quoting zhang ziyi:


To me personally it means that this organization know how to work in the Middle East and spy out real situations.


Why am i not surprised ?!

89.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 May 2008 Wed 05:11 pm

Quoting armegon:

Bak sen , are u the new open-minded ?, unfortunately i do not expect an objective video from one who posts wilders video here , so i did not watch. Btw i watched enough of them and think no need to watch the ones here. Anything wrong Susie Wong?( lol became rhymed).
Having no clue, if u did care, i did not comment on videos, i only said i thought and alameda confrims this with the research. You came to a conclusion from my one-post here that i have no clue on subjects , really funny…

p.s: i will reply u later Daydreamer if i have time, btw my nick is armegon , not armegeddon…



Sorry about your nick, it wasn't intentional!

Actually I don't consider myself very open-minded. What I questioned, however, was the intention why you expressed such support to Alameda-The-Israeli-Is-Unreliable, if you support what she believes in so much, it means you find the situation depicted in the videos that you didn't watch not credible. And the fact that it was a video translated by an organisation sponsored by the Israeli intelligence, made you agree on its lack of credibility. And, consequently, if you find those videos not true, it means that you find the situation of women in Arab countries (Lebanon here) different to what those videos show.

Canli - I included the other link here as I wanted to avoid being accused of being one-sided. Those interested may read about what Quran says on his particular subject and how it relates to what some countries are like

90.       alameda
3499 posts
 22 May 2008 Thu 12:11 am

Hmmm...interesting link you put here daydreamer....

The Position of Women in Islam

Just who are these informed people you use as your reference....reading their home page it says:

Investigate Islam from a Christian point of view!

Why don't you try looking at this one?

Are Human Rights Compatible with Islam?

91.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 22 May 2008 Thu 09:47 am

Quoting alameda:



Why don't you try looking at this one?

Are Human Rights Compatible with Islam?



I did have a look and, to tell you the truth I found no great difference. It all follows what has been discussed in detail here. The idea of women's rights and how it is applied in Muslim countries. Even your source reads:

" Women are the targets of the most serious violations of human rights which occur in Muslim societies in general. Muslims say with great pride that Islam abolished female infanticide; true, but, it must also be mentioned that one of the most common crimes in a number of Muslim countries (e.g., in Pakistan) is the murder of women by their husbands. These so-called "honor-killings" are, in fact, extremely dishonorable and are frequently used to camouflage other kinds of crimes.

Female children are discriminated against from the moment of birth, for it is customary in Muslim societies to regard a son as a gift, and a daughter as a trial, from God. Therefore, the birth of a son is an occasion for celebration while the birth of a daughter calls for commiseration if not lamentation. Many girls are married when they are still minors, even though marriage in Islam is a contract and presupposes that the contracting parties are both consenting adults. Even though so much Qur'anic legislation is aimed at protecting the rights of women in the context of marriage[54] women cannot claim equality with their husbands. The husband, in fact, is regarded as his wife's gateway to heaven or hell and the arbiter of her final destiny. That such an idea can exist within the framework of Islam - which, in theory, rejects the idea of there being any intermediary between a believer and God - represents both a profound irony and a great tragedy. "

See - that's the difference between theory and practice that you deliberately choose to ignore. I'm sure in the US you're not very likely to have your freedom limited, but, you know, there's a whole wide world outside your door.

If you failed to notice, this thread here was not about the theory of religion. It was about the domestic violence in Lebanon as contrasted to domestic violence in Europe (France was mentioned in the TV programme). Some members expressed their horror to hear that the police wouldn't help a battered woman. When you cut in trying to undermine the source, I wondered what you think about domestic violence in Lebanon. It seems you think it's just a bunch of lies. So I decided to look up another source as any Israeli based doesn't come up to your expectations. I did - I found one and what happens? You ignore it but immediately try to undermine an extra link for the reason it is from Christian perspective. And, if I asked you to ignore the second link, what makes the first one lack credibility?

92.       alameda
3499 posts
 22 May 2008 Thu 08:09 pm

'If you failed to notice, this thread here was not about the theory of religion. It was about the domestic violence in Lebanon'

Actually if you read the title of this thread is:

'Wife beating in Islam - the woman is totally isolated'

The difference my dear is that your source indicates that the problem is Islam. My source shows the problems arise in spite of Islam. There is a difference between what Islam teaches and what is practiced.

You use sources whose actual purpose is to disparage Islam, not learn about Islam. Dr Riffat Hassan is a Muslim woman scholar who looks at Islam from the inside, not the outside.

Muslim Women and Human Rights: The Unarticulated Quandary

Muslim women often find much support and sympathy in the West so long as they are seen as rebels and deviants within the world of Islam. But many of them begin to realize, sooner or later, that while they have serious difficulties with Muslim culture, they are also not able, for many reasons to identify with Western, secular culture. This realization leads them to feel - at least for a time - isolated and alone. Much attention has been focused, in the Western media and literature, on the sorry plight of Muslim women who are 'poor and oppressed' in visible or tangible ways. Hardly any notice has been taken, however, of the profound tragedy and trauma suffered by the self-aware Muslim women of today who are struggling to maintain their religious identity and personal autonomy in the face of the intransigence of Muslim culture, on the one hand, and the imperialism of Western, secular culture, on the other hand.'


Even in the video you uploaded, it clearly states the wife is NOT the husbands posession, she is not merchandise to do with what he wants. He should not bruise, break any bones, draw blood or hurt his wife.....so if one is not to hurt one's wife, how can one beat her?

In the translation in your clip, the word used is: 'idribuhunna'. The root of that word is daraba, which has many meanings, the meaning is based on the context in which it is used. Such a simplistic translation as 'beat' hardly could qualify as an honest translation, particularly in light of today's understanding of the word 'to beat'.

A Famous Multi-Meaning Word

The problem comes from the word 'Idribuhunne' which we used to translate as 'beat them'. The root of this word is 'DaRaBa'. If you look at any Arabic dictionary you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. That list is one of the longest list in whole Arabic dictionary. It can be said that 'DaRaBa' is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273
To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
To beat: 8:50; 47:27
To set up: 43:58; 57:13
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
To take away, to ignore: 43:5
To condemn: 2:61
To seal, to draw over: 18:11
To cover: 24:31
To explain: 13:17

As you see, in Quran alone we can witness the verb 'DaRaBa' having at least ten different meanings. 'DaRaBa' has also other meanings which are not mentioned in the Quran. For example, in the Arabic language, you do not print money--you 'DaRaBa' money, you do not multiply numbers--you 'DaRaBa' numbers, you do not cease the work--you 'DaRaBa' the work. In Turkish we have many verbs similar to DaRaBa, such as 'tutmak', 'calmak', 'vurmak' etc. In English we have two verbs which are almost equivalent to 'DaRaBa'. These are 'strike' and 'beat'.


beating woman

93.       catwoman
8933 posts
 22 May 2008 Thu 10:13 pm

Quoting alameda:

The difference my dear is that your source indicates that the problem is Islam. My source shows the problems arise in spite of Islam.


The problem exists despite Islam, but Islam openly encourages it (along with other gender racisms), which consequently leads to what is called "gender apartheidt" in Islam.

94.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 01:30 pm

Quoting alameda:



There is a difference between what Islam teaches and what is practiced.


Now, isn't that what I stated in the post just above yours?

You may hate it, but some people who call themselves Muslim do actually interpret (read/apply) everything in a different way than you do. And even is what Quran says doesn't read to you as permission to beat a wife, they will find a way to interpret it as they wish. So, the problem is Islam. Like I've said many times - I am not t6o judge what the Real Islam is because they will say their way is the right way and you, having a totally different understanding basing on the same source, will say that's not what Quran teaches.

But what difference does it make if your idea of Islam is different to theirs if you don't state it loud and clear that they are abusing your religion. It is not Christians or Jews that make those guys beat their wives, rape little girls and treat women as inferior. It is what they - Muslims - make themselves out of the same sources that you have.



Quote:

Even in the video you uploaded, it clearly states the wife is NOT the husbands posession, she is not merchandise to do with what he wants. He should not bruise, break any bones, draw blood or hurt his wife.....so if one is not to hurt one's wife, how can one beat her?


There are ways of beating that leave no bruises and break no bones. The word 'hurt' is, as I understand it, used to describe bruising or breaking bones.


Quote:

The problem comes from the word 'Idribuhunne' which we used to translate as 'beat them'.It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273
To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
To beat: 8:50; 47:27
To set up: 43:58; 57:13
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
To take away, to ignore: 43:5
To condemn: 2:61
To seal, to draw over: 18:11
To cover: 24:31
To explain: 13:17



Hmm interesting, I just wonder which of these may collocate with breaking bones and bruising and not doing it on the face. Covering? Giving example? I might be biased but in sentences like: 'Don't X your wife in a way that leaves bruises or breaks bones. Don't X your wife in front of the children. And don't X her on the face' (where X is a verb) the only logical substitution would be that of 'to beat' Unless you want not to ignore your wife in a way that leaves bruises.

Also, you're wrong about me trying to disparage Islam. Its followers do it way better than I ever could. I'm just commenting on the things that do not agree with my moral and ethical codes. If I read about people calling themselves Muslim and believing in Allah who act like animals and justify their behaviour by their religion, I can't ignore the fact that they consider themselves to be following the word of Allah. You may do it by quoting proper verses from Quran, by telling them that they are wrong. But instead of that, you choose to act as if it wasn't a problem of religion (of applying religion to be precise) and you engage yourself in nonsensical crusade of discrediting non-Muslim sources.

Copy,paste as many links to show the beauty of Islam, you won't change the fact that people suffer because some Muslims have a different approach to it. And they, Muslims themselves, make Islam a religion of fear and violence although Muhammed's idea of it might have been different. And the world stands against that Islam - the terrorists, the wife battering scums, the child molesters. Not against people who decide to praise a god called Allah, people who are full of love for this world, people who respect all others in spite of what they believe in (or not believe in).

95.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 05:36 pm

Again, im late to respone, hows catwoman's provoking site going ?


Quoting Daydreamer:

do you really think that women in Arab counties have as many rights that they can exercise as in, let's say, Europe?


I have no claim like above but i have problems with the ones who tries to stick all wrong-doings in the name Islam instead of people or states or traditions or politics, mixing all of them.
I dont think u pay attention but let me give a link from a Quranic perspective of Women in Islam.

Quoting Daydreamer:

It is nobody's aim here to show that Islam is bad, Europe is grand.



Then whats the aim of posting propogand videos here?

Quoting Daydreamer:

But you have to be blind not to notice huge differences as far as the approach to women goes.



So what is the point? Mean to say it is the fault of Islam? Please say it clearly, dont hide ur feelings like warmonger, unbalanced catwoman. You have to be blind not to notice it is not .

Quoting Daydreamer:

Of course, you may live a happy life thinking that all media lies and all are Israeli (or Jewish) propaganda. Well, they're not.


Didnt you confess also about the anti-islamic broadcasting of media? Do u remember media propogand before 2001? You may live a happy life thinking Islam is the most violent religion. But sudenly i realized, u change ur opinions in ur last post. Anyway u can turn?

Quoting Daydreamer:

Not credible as she's based in the USA, right?


This will be or is a good material for propogand or for missionaries. Hey look, hows women treated in Islam the most violent religion ? Being unaware that none of them are orders of Islam.

Quoting Daydreamer:

I don't understand why you're deciding to turn a blind eye to what goes on in the world...


Same applies to you also.

Quoting Daydreamer:

Actually I don't consider myself very open-minded.


Post was not adressed to you , you replied, anyways…

Quoting Daydreamer:

Actually I don't consider myself very open-minded. What I questioned, however, was the intention why you expressed such support to Alameda-The-Israeli-Is-Unreliable, if you support what she believes in so much, it means you find the situation depicted in the videos that you didn't watch not credible. And the fact that it was a video translated by an organisation sponsored by the Israeli intelligence, made you agree on its lack of credibility. And, consequently, if you find those videos not true, it means that you find the situation of women in Arab countries (Lebanon here) different to what those videos show.



I thanked to Alameda because she researched and unveiled the intention behind the video. I have never said anything about the videos whether they are depicted true or not. Blaming Islam results nothing, only hatred between the people grows as i said before.

Then lets see as an example what some passasges of bibles says about women which gathers no result and still billions believe them nothing matters if they practice or not...

Quote:

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [c] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.



Source

And again good research Alameda about the word 'dharaba'. Edip Yüksel who i do not always agree, translated the word in that verse like 'admonish them with examples' which maybe the closest meaning i think.

96.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 06:10 pm

Sorry, I don't have much time so I'll be quick. Bible is cruel and calls for people to act in a cruel way? Of course! Like 99% of religions invented by men it treats women as inferior etc. No surprise here. That's why in Middle Ages women were falling like flies. But, if you agree, it is 21st century and nobody but psychopaths would quote and follow those lines. And if they did, they'd be apprehended for that. Unfortunately it's not the case with Quoran quoting psychopaths from the east.

Why do I write that it is Islam that is responsible for it? because it is what those people say, go to other forums (not the ones with Muslims only) and see that Muslims often believe where women's position is. Like I said earlier (dunno if you read it) the people who do it call themselves Muslim and say they base their acts on the what Quran says.

Of course it's mainly a matter of tradition and social acceptance that women rank somewhere behind a donkey, but, ironically, people treating those women like that raise hands with Quran in them. I don't understand why Muslim organisations who don't accept domestic violence as sign of following the word of god, won't make a stand and influence those who are stuck in what was the Middle Ages for Christians.

I did comment on media's bias in the sense that they love sensation. If you have Muslims planting flowers or braiding beard nobody watches that. But give us Muslims killing each other or giving pieces of advice on how to beat your wife and we will watch it. The fact it is propaganda and bias doesn't make it untrue, does it?

Oh, and that attempt with the meaning - that was actually weak, as I showed in the previous post. Was this word without context, its meaning might be doubtful.

97.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 07:07 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Oh, and that attempt with the meaning - that was actually weak, as I showed in the previous post. Was this word without context, its meaning might be doubtful.


Let me give another example of this word through Kuran. For example, “idribbiAAasaka alhajara” is normally translated with “hit the rock with your staff”. Here “idribbi” comes from “Darb” and is referred to the rock. Namely you can idrib=hit rock but you can also idrib=move the rock. This verse is from the parable of Moses in Kuran which is usually translated as “hit” under the influence of Bibles because in Bible Moses hit rock and the water came out but it can also mean Moses moved rock and water came out. Same is also valid for these verse. Possibly translators affected from hadiths influenced from Bibles which are very violent against women.
So it seems not weak, in Turkish translation of Kuran there are 3 different approach to that word.

98.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 07:29 pm

Quoting armegon:



To be honest, NOT relating "issues of women's rights in arabic countries with religion" is a bit naive!!
Why is the women in arabic countries have less rights than others, according to you?
Why is the difference between women in india and pakistan or afghanistan then? (They are very close to each other)
It seems to me, you are trying downplay the role of the religion here!
Compare the position of women in Turks before and after they encountered with islam ..
(actually, when I think of that way, the religion was one of the main contributers for many many things late started for Turks.. Turks were able to move into 'written culture' from 'verbal culture' 200 years later than the west..
Why do you think it was? who stopped it? Why were we late for industrial development do you think?)

As far as the video was made by Israeli intelligence or not, why dont you look at the content and criticize it?
Is the content wrong?
I will be very surprised if it is wrong actually!! And I am sure you know very well too that -possibly- the content is telling the truth..

As far as the finding different meanings of the words in Kuran..
Sorry, but, it is a very well known thing..Almost everybody agrees that what it meant in that verse..But when the criticisms rain from everywhere, this intensive 'face saving' search is starting...

As far as the verses from Bible is concerned, well.. good to know those..
But there is slight difference there..
In the west, not many people got killed because of adultery for the religious reasons!!
In the west, the religion does not play important role in people's daily life..

Anyway..
As i said before, kuran, as it is, is not compatible with the modern life..
(actually, it has been the case for a long time. You should just investigate why there has not been a serious scientist from islamic world for last 1000 years! Because science has always been thwarted by the belief that Kuran tells you everything so you dont need to investigate)

Kuran insists that muslims should live with sheria, which is highly questionable as far as juridical, political, democratic values are concerned in today's world.

A serious reform is absolutely necessary in Islam if it is going to exist in modern world.

99.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 07:39 pm

Ohhh Mr. thehandsom, you are asking too much, i wrote about these many times here and got bored. I dont have much that time to explain them, can u please do a little research about my posts here? Im the one here who always badly criticized so-called religious leaders, hadiths, cults and sheiks etc, maybe u can find ur answers ...

100.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 07:43 pm

haha
I dont have time either mate..
And I am not looking for answers really as I dont have any unanswered questions about religions in my head.

But then, I would suggest, you should go to the source of the problem, rather than messing about sheiks, cults, hadiths etc..
lol

101.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 07:54 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

haha
I dont have time either mate..
And I am not looking for answers really as I dont have any unanswered questions about religions in my head.


Ehh, then u dont need my answers as i dont need ur questions

Quoting thehandsom:


But then, I would suggest, you should go to the source of the problem, rather than messing about sheiks, cults, hadiths etc..
lol



hmmm, thats ur opinion, i would suggest, you should research and read more mate , instead of parroting the same things here...

102.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 08:01 pm

Quoting armegon:

Quoting thehandsom:

haha
I dont have time either mate..
And I am not looking for answers really as I dont have any unanswered questions about religions in my head.


Ehh, then u dont need my answers as i dont need ur questions

Quoting thehandsom:


But then, I would suggest, you should go to the source of the problem, rather than messing about sheiks, cults, hadiths etc..
lol



hmmm, thats ur opinion, i would suggest, you should research and read more mate , instead of parroting the same things here...


Dont be cross please..
I was just correcting 'the wrongs' here..

I would be glad if you had any answers though, just to check if there is something new from islamic camp or it is just the same defense coming back again and again.

Regarding the research, I cant say I am frantically searching on the subject as I used to in the past but I doubt that there is something new really..
(I would not mind reading the kuran again and start discussing with the imams , if only you or someone can plant a question mark into my head) lol


103.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 08:37 pm

Quoting the handsom:

Dont be cross please..
I was just correcting 'the wrongs' here..

I would be glad if you had any answers though, just to check if there is something new from islamic camp or it is just the same defense coming back again and again.



Hahaha, dont be lazy Mr. thehandsom, go and read, btw do not forget to visit jesus camp after islamic camp.

104.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 09:45 pm

Quoting armegon:

Quoting the handsom:

Dont be cross please..
I was just correcting 'the wrongs' here..

I would be glad if you had any answers though, just to check if there is something new from islamic camp or it is just the same defense coming back again and again.



Hahaha, dont be lazy Mr. thehandsom, go and read, btw do not forget to visit jesus camp after islamic camp.


Naah..
Jesus camp is not exciting for me either.
I think I will go with this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gQHlXeEjRU
or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVL656my8Sc&feature=related

btw..I am still feeling too lazy to go back and read. Hopefully, I will catch some of your future posts on the subject

105.       geniuda
1070 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 09:55 pm

Quoting thehandsom:


I think I will go with this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gQHlXeEjRU
or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVL656my8Sc&feature=related


ohhh Borat Borat! so funny!!

You made my day!lol .............ok back to work :-S

106.       alameda
3499 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 10:26 pm

Distortion of religions is not unique to Islam, it happens when people look to find ways to do what they want.

As for abuse of women, the Islamic world does not have a hold on that.

Abuse in women's prisons


When Amnesty International began analyzing custodial sexual misconduct laws in 1999, 14 states had no laws protecting women inmates from sexual abuse. By 2001, six states -- Alabama, Minnesota, Oregon, Utah, Vermont and Wisconsin -- still lacked such laws. Governor Douglas signed Vermont's custodial sexual misconduct legislation on May 23

abuse of women in custody

March 4, 1999
Web posted at: 7:55 p.m. EST (0055 GMT)
From CNN's Diane Ruggiero
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sexual abuse is 'virtually a fact of life' for female prisoners in the United States, many of whom are sold by prison guards as sex slaves to male inmates, according to a new report from Amnesty International..
The report released Thursday found sexual abuse of female inmates is rampant but said many cases go unreported for fear of retaliation.
Amnesty reported an undetermined number of cases of prison guards who grope women during daily searches and who rape women.

Nepali Girl Trafficking

Then we have
Joseph Fitzl who incarcerated and raped his his own daughter. It is reported he went to church too.


Abuse of females is an international none sectarian practice.

As for 'religious' people having odd ideas, it's not something unique to Muslims...

Hagee 'God sent Hitler to move the Jews to Israel

God forgives rape/murder if you 'accept Christ

However, we have those like Rumi and Yunis Emre, who where Muslims and made great contributions to humanity.

Rumi

Yunus Emre

107.       alameda
3499 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 10:28 pm

"The problem exists despite Islam, but Islam openly encourages it (along with other gender racisms), which consequently leads to what is called "gender apartheidt" in Islam."

This is laughable, do you really think women are as strong as men? Could you come out on top if a man decided to use his strength against you? Gender aparthide.....get real. The fact that males are larger and stronger than females is not the fault of Islam.

BTW gender and race are different.

108.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 10:44 pm

Quoting alameda:

"The problem exists despite Islam, but Islam openly encourages it (along with other gender racisms), which consequently leads to what is called "gender apartheidt" in Islam."

This is laughable, do you really think women are as strong as men? Could you come out on top if a man decided to use his strength against you? Gender aparthide.....get real. The fact that males are larger and stronger than females is not the fault of Islam.

BTW gender and race are different.


I think this is twisting the fact a bit though..
With your reasoning, we can not talk about equality between humans.
Even with the same gender (For example, I always think, I am stronger than an average japanese man because they are smaller )

109.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 11:35 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting alameda:

"The problem exists despite Islam, but Islam openly encourages it (along with other gender racisms), which consequently leads to what is called "gender apartheidt" in Islam."

This is laughable, do you really think women are as strong as men? Could you come out on top if a man decided to use his strength against you? Gender aparthide.....get real. The fact that males are larger and stronger than females is not the fault of Islam.

BTW gender and race are different.


I think this is twisting the fact a bit though..
With your reasoning, we can not talk about equality between humans.
Even with the same gender (For example, I always think, I am stronger than an average japanese man because they are smaller )



Now all the Japanese members will protest you handsom! You have insulted Japaneseness!

110.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 11:35 pm

lol The same old story over and over again. Alamenda try to read my post before answering it. Didn't I write about psychopaths as the only ones using Christianity to account for their crimes? To my best knowledge if you beat a woman, kill your daughter for being raped and the like you go to prison in this bad "Christian" west. Some freaks who happen to go to church and still beat their wives don't quote the bible to justify it Unlike those Muslims who use Quran for this purpose.

That reminds me of this video Handsom posted about how Muslims debate. You speak of flowers and they go on about vegetables. You are an excellent example of not responding to arguments but going off topic Not surprising really. You're on the losing side

And that word...Using analogy to the example I gave (the substitution method) If I say "I can X a rock" X can be replaced by both move and hit. A bit different from the beat word

Handsom is more than right saying that what you perceive as Christian culture is not as discriminatory as Islam. And police is definitely not working basing on Christian laws lol. And that's even in Poland, which is a really religious country. I dislike Christianity and Islam all the same, but I have to give justice and see the difference. Sure you're not able to do it as you're not objective. Still, no matter how much you foam at the mouth you wont change the facts lol

Can I picture what you'll reply?
Alameda will post 3 links from newspapers giving examples of crimes in the west and will consider it a counterbalance for the fact that police doesn't help battered women in the east.

Armegon will applaud her findings and find a verse from the bible talking about killing or the like. He will ignore the fact that no custom of violence is justified in bible. Oh, are we in the middle ages again?

111.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 11:39 pm

Quoting alameda:

"The problem exists despite Islam, but Islam openly encourages it (along with other gender racisms), which consequently leads to what is called "gender apartheidt" in Islam."

This is laughable, do you really think women are as strong as men? Could you come out on top if a man decided to use his strength against you? Gender aparthide.....get real. The fact that males are larger and stronger than females is not the fault of Islam.

BTW gender and race are different.



What? I see now why some Muslim women are so eager to defend men's actions - they consider them superior just because they're physically stronger

You know, I'm quite big and I could easily get on top of many men (dirty westerners- stop giggling - not in THAT sense). Does that make me superior? Cool

112.       armegon
1872 posts
 24 May 2008 Sat 10:25 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

And that word...Using analogy to the example I gave (the substitution method) If I say 'I can X a rock' X can be replaced by both move and hit. A bit different from the beat word


Actually not different. You do not read Daydreamer(i began to believe nothing changes also if u read ). This word has over 100 meanings and there are also English translations/interpretation of verse which translates differently; see one interpretation below;

Quote:

In verse 4:34 we are told to Idribuuhun the women if they rebel against the society or family. So what can we idrib with women:

-We can idrib=hit the women.
-We can idrib=seperate from the women
-We can idrib=admonish them with examples
-We can idrib=have sex with them

So what is more logical in 4:34? We first read that we must talk to them, then leave them alone in the bedroom to show you are serious, and then... what? Hit them? Does that really make sense? Does that really convince them, or just make them afraid of you? Also what does rebellion mean here? Can the rebellion be determined by the man himself? Or must this be done by the State? Must we seperate from them?
..............................
First of all, this verse does not refer to husband and wife, it uses the words Rijaal=men and Nisa=women in general.
..............................
So the infamous verse 4:34 is not about husband and wife relationship at all. It is about the roles of men and women which they must perform in society
..............................



Quoting Daydreamer:

Armegon will applaud her findings and find a verse from the bible talking about killing or the like. He will ignore the fact that no custom of violence is justified in bible. Oh, are we in the middle ages again?


Haha, thats what you do with ur partners all the time here , . Find a video or any document , turn it into religious or kind of debate, applaud eachother and make fun of other people’s belief. Its my first time here posting a verse from bible, on the contrary you and your fellow friends posting verses continually. I guess you also think all men in east beating their wifes and the videos are the proof, you really funny …

113.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 24 May 2008 Sat 11:27 am

I think we're talking about two different things here. I was talking about what Alameda said about the word used in the video. In the context of the video only the word beat would suit logically.

In the passage you used I see no mention of bruising, face or breaking bones. So, I assume it's not the same thing we're discussing. Still, I would love you to quote me a passage about what men's punishment is if he rebels against family or society.

I'm sorry if you find what I write a religious debate. It is never intended to be this way. I am an Atheist so if I were to have religious debates I'd rather be commenting on the silliness of believing in God (any god for that matter) than on Islam only. What I have been discussing here is the social impact of societies with Islam as dominant religion. Many a time I have emphasised that the impact stems from specific way of interpretation rather than verbatim following of religious documents. Still, what you do is to try to show me I am wrong by interpreting verses. So, let's be brief and answer a few quick Yes-No questions

1. Is it true that women in some Arab countries have problems if they leave the house without male company?
2. Is it true that there are still events of honour killing among people who are Muslims?
3. Is it probable that in Lebanon police will not intervene in case of domestic violence?
4. Do Muslims ever interpret Quran in different way? Can it result in justifying violence against women?
5. Do all Muslim women have the right (in practice, NOT theory) to reject a husband/veto another marriage of her husband?
6. Is adultery punished in some Muslim countries?
7. Is it legally forbidden to convert to a religion other than Islam in some countries?

You don't have to answer in writing, because if you do, you will have to lie to save your face. And I'm not asking you about what Quran says about the above. I am asking about what reality looks like in predominantly Muslim countries. Also, I don't state that it is the case in Muslim countries or that it's true about all Muslims. The questions concern a trend, something more than individual cases.

To save you the usual 'Christianity is worse' I answered the same questions for countries most Muslims consider predominantly Christian

1. Is it true that women in some western countries have problems if they leave the house without male company?

NO

2. Is it true that there are still events of honour killing among people in the west?
NO
3. Is it probable that in western countries police will not intervene in case of domestic violence?
NO
4. Do Christians ever interpret Bible in different way?
YES
Can it result in justifying violence against women?
NO
5. Do all Christian women have the right (in practice, NOT theory) to reject a husband/veto another marriage of her husband?
YES
6. Is adultery punished in some Christian countries?
NO
7. Is it legally forbidden to convert to a religion other than Christianity in some countries?
NO

It amuses me to read how you believe I simplify things. No, I don't believe all men in the east beat their wives. I do believe some women actually beat their husbands, or control them rather than the other way around. I am more than well aware that some Muslim women are wonderful, self-conscious females who know what they want, have the necessary education and will not let themselves be dominated by men just because of their gender. Also, I see a huge difference between countries like Egypt or Turkey and countries with more radical approach like Saudi Arabia. However, what always surprises me is how eager are Muslims to defend those who break basic human rights just because they believe it saves the face of their religion.

114.       zhang ziyi
205 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 01:20 am

I have just read that over the past 15 years more than 1000 women were stoned to death in Iran.
Very shocking, it is just a tip of an ice-berg, I don't know how many were executed by other types of CP.
Source: The stoning of Soraya M. by Freidoune Sahebjam

115.       armegon
1872 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 02:33 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

I think we're talking about two different things here. I was talking about what Alameda said about the word used in the video. In the context of the video only the word beat would suit logically.


I didnt watch the video so there is a misunderstanding, i thought post was adresssed to me.

Quoting Daydreamer:

Still, I would love you to quote me a passage about what men's punishment is if he rebels against family or society.


There is no meaning of physical punishment in that interpretation, the following verse advices both to reconcile, same said for both to reconcile if women expreience ill-treatment from men(4:128).
Look Dd, when u say problem is religious leaders or using their way of Islam to rule a country, using religion for politics or ignorance, i will completely agree but when u say problem is Islam, i completely disagree thats why we argue since the beginning. Im not the supporter of so-called Islamic states which uses sheria law to rule country , depends 90% on hadiths and traditions. Thats the major reason Mustafa Kemal forbid all cults(still causes problems in Türkiye),seperate state from religion and changed the regime into Republic. Btw some of the Arabic states are still also monarchy. Each have different laws, differs from country to country mostly based on traditions which were made holy.
As for ur questions, i dont know the laws of Arab countries exactly to explain, each are different so i cant reply ur questions in general. But i can clearly say that women(people) have no proper rights in them, so this crooked system should be changed, thats what im saying from the beginning. I think it is clear now.

Quoting Daydreamer:

However, what always surprises me is how eager are Muslims to defend those who break basic human rights just because they believe it saves the face of their religion.


Noone defend them but when people realize the intention behind them and when it turns out to degrade Islam propogand rather than human-rights, of course people also react to this.

116.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 11:18 am

Quoting armegon:


Look Dd, when u say problem is religious leaders or using their way of Islam to rule a country, using religion for politics or ignorance, i will completely agree but when u say problem is Islam, i completely disagree thats why we argue since the beginning.



Then actually we have nothing to argue about as I think exactly the same way! I've always said that it is how religion is abused that results in problems. To me, the world would be a better place without religions, but it's just my opinion and I neither expect people to agree with me nor am I interested in arguing about it.

What has been commented on so many times is how Islam is used , like you said, for politics or ignorance, not that Islam is evil per se.

It took us a while but I'm glad we finally understood each other's positions on this subject

117.       magnadea
0 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 01:10 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

To me, the world would be a better place without religions



+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

118.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 01:14 pm

Quoting magnadea:

Quoting Daydreamer:

To me, the world would be a better place without religions



+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000



I think the world would be a better place without human beings!!!

119.       magnadea
0 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 01:15 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris:

I think the world would be a better place without human beings!!!



Except me

120.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 01:17 pm

Quoting magnadea:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

I think the world would be a better place without human beings!!!



Except me



No exceptions!!! we are all the same!!

selfish! polluting! eating! pissing!

we dont deserve this beautiful world i guess!!

121.       magnadea
0 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 01:19 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris:


No exceptions!!! we are all the same!!

selfish! polluting! eating! pissing!

we dont deserve this beautiful world i guess!!



I agree with you 80%, but we DO add to it's beauty in the form of art, poetry, music etc.

122.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 01:21 pm

Quoting magnadea:

Quoting SuiGeneris:


No exceptions!!! we are all the same!!

selfish! polluting! eating! pissing!

we dont deserve this beautiful world i guess!!



I agree with you 80%, but we DO add to it's beauty in the form of art, poetry, music etc.



well the music we do has been seen with Eurovision

123.       magnadea
0 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 01:23 pm

Quoting SuiGeneris:

well the music we do has been seen with Eurovision



Oh God - you are right
Yes - we need to rid this world of such vile noise! lol

124.       alameda
3499 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 10:27 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting alameda:

"The problem exists despite Islam, but Islam openly encourages it (along with other gender racisms), which consequently leads to what is called "gender apartheidt" in Islam."

This is laughable, do you really think women are as strong as men? Could you come out on top if a man decided to use his strength against you? Gender aparthide.....get real. The fact that males are larger and stronger than females is not the fault of Islam.

BTW gender and race are different.



What? I see now why some Muslim women are so eager to defend men's actions - they consider them superior just because they're physically stronger

You know, I'm quite big and I could easily get on top of many men (dirty westerners- stop giggling - not in THAT sense). Does that make me superior? Cool



Daydreamer, read again. I did not say men are superior to women, I said they are physically stronger. There is a difference.

No matter how large you are, I seriously doubt you could win a contest of strength against a male. Remember, sports are segregated by gender?

Get real!

125.       alameda
3499 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 10:40 pm

Quoting thehandsom:


I think this is twisting the fact a bit though..
With your reasoning, we can not talk about equality between humans.
Even with the same gender (For example, I always think, I am stronger than an average japanese man because they are smaller )



The fact of the matter is most people learn to cooperate because they have something to gain, the good feeling from being nice, or it could be they prefer compliance.

We do see the strategy, "Might makes Right" though, don't we? People often use what ever power they have to get what they want, or think they deserve.

If you went against a Japanese man, you may be surprised, as many are skilled in Martial Arts. You see, they developed a strategy to deal with things. Perhaps a careful analysis of just exactly what one's strengths are is a good idea, don't you think?

126.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 26 May 2008 Mon 10:55 pm

Quoting alameda:


Daydreamer, read again. I did not say men are superior to women, I said they are physically stronger. There is a difference.

No matter how large you are, I seriously doubt you could win a contest of strength against a male. Remember, sports are segregated by gender?

Get real!


There are plenty of weak and feeble men out there and plenty of women who are physically stronger! As in all things, it depends on the individual.

Why does it seem that you like to put people in little boxes and stereotype them?

127.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 27 May 2008 Tue 10:48 am

Quoting alameda:



This is laughable, do you really think women are as strong as men? Could you come out on top if a man decided to use his strength against you? Gender aparthide.....get real. The fact that males are larger and stronger than females is not the fault of Islam.




Ok, I read your post again. Still, I discovered nothing new. I wonder what hidden message it carried. You justified gender apartheid by false assumption males are stronger than women. That's a bit of a generalisation, aint't it? Besides, what I objected to was to use strength as criterion of segregation. Men and women differ - it's obvious and only those who have never seen a naked men and woman can claim otherwise. However, it's not what gender apartheid is about

Using your favourite means of enlighting the crowds:

Wikipedia definition of Gender Apartheid

I. What is Gender Apartheid?

Apartheid is the "strict racial segregation as practiced in South Africa."Gender apartheid has been used to describe the strict gender-based segregation currently practiced in Afghanistan.

Gender apartheid began in Afghanistan in September 1996, when the Taliban militia took over the capital of Afghanistan, Kabul.The Taliban militia is a fundamentalist group that claims to represent pure Islamic principles.2 However, most Muslim countries condemn the practices of the Taliban as being un-Islamic.

As of 1998, the Taliban controlled at least 85% of Afghanistan, and instituted gender apartheid policies throughout this region.These gender-based segregation policies have been denounced as human rights violations by governments and people around the world.

From here

But, even if we assume that all men are stronger than women, so what? Does it justify any manifestations of violence? Does it justify rapes and battering women? Or, perhaps, it just puts women in the lost position right from the start, as in, don't fight, he's stronger, you stand no chance? Really, I cannot imagine what physical strength has to do with equal rights...




128.       alameda
3499 posts
 27 May 2008 Tue 10:47 pm

'Ok, I read your post again. Still, I discovered nothing new. I wonder what hidden message it carried. '

It seems to me you are somewhat paranoid in looking for hidden meaning. I stated a universally understood fact. You know, bulls are stronger than cows, drakes are larger than ganders, roosters are larger & stronger than hens, stallions are larger than mares.....or fillies....Humans follow in this model, need I go on?

'You justified gender apartheid by false assumption males are stronger than women. That's a bit of a generalisation, aint't it? Besides, what I objected to was to use strength as criterion of segregation. Men and women differ - it's obvious and only those who have never seen a naked men and woman can claim otherwise. However, it's not what gender apartheid is about'

Ummm, some do not have to see naked males and females to see the difference...I in no way justified 'gender apartheid' or maltreatment of women or anyone. I merely pointed out males are generaly stronger physically than females. Is that so hard to understand? Human females have different strengths.

Perhaps you should protest at the Olympics to have sports integrated? And, while you are at it how about going after tennis and all the other sports that are 'segregated'?

'But, even if we assume that all men are stronger than women, so what? Does it justify any manifestations of violence? Does it justify rapes and battering women? Or, perhaps, it just puts women in the lost position right from the start, as in, don't fight, he's stronger, you stand no chance? Really, I cannot imagine what physical strength has to do with equal rights...'

No place did I ever justify violence against anyone, male or female. It does suggest is that should used to analyse what strengths are actually had, and then devise a stragegy based on those strengths. How about looking at it more like a matter of efficient resource allocation? Really, we get nowhere if we look at the situation as a us versus them. Humanity goes nowhere without cooperation.

Note the keyword here: cooperation.

Gender differences

129.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 28 May 2008 Wed 10:29 am

I looked for a hidden meaning as the literal message of your post read "men are stronger than women and it's a fact" - a point which not only is a generalisation but also had nothing to do with the subject discussed. We talked about men beating women and gender apartheid and suddenly you go that men are stronger. So it's not surprising that since you are a strong defender of the eastern culture you either assume that it's their right to beat women or that the strength accounts for violence. Both of these ways of reasoning are silly for me. Domestic violence as in women beating men occurs as well, and that in spite of physical strength. If you wanted to change the subject of conversation as you were losing the ground, you could have either stopped replying or write that you're no longer interested. Or, you could have posted something logical at least.

If I misunderstood the point of your observance, please, state clearly what physical strength had to do with either domestic violence or gender apartheid. If it's just listing stereotypes, I believe it' my round so I'll go:
men like sports and women like taking care of the house. How stupid is my generalisation? How much to the point?

As for Olympic Games - have I suggested that men and women don't differ? lol I guess, having nothing to say, you just typed for the sake of typing. Works miracles for fingers, doesn't it?

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