Welcome
Login:   Pass:     Register - Forgot Password - Resend Activation

Turkish Class Forums / General/Off-topic

General/Off-topic

Add reply to this discussion
Wife beating in Islam - the woman is totally isolated
(129 Messages in 13 pages - View all)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13
90.       alameda
3499 posts
 22 May 2008 Thu 12:11 am

Hmmm...interesting link you put here daydreamer....

The Position of Women in Islam

Just who are these informed people you use as your reference....reading their home page it says:

Investigate Islam from a Christian point of view!

Why don't you try looking at this one?

Are Human Rights Compatible with Islam?

91.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 22 May 2008 Thu 09:47 am

Quoting alameda:



Why don't you try looking at this one?

Are Human Rights Compatible with Islam?



I did have a look and, to tell you the truth I found no great difference. It all follows what has been discussed in detail here. The idea of women's rights and how it is applied in Muslim countries. Even your source reads:

" Women are the targets of the most serious violations of human rights which occur in Muslim societies in general. Muslims say with great pride that Islam abolished female infanticide; true, but, it must also be mentioned that one of the most common crimes in a number of Muslim countries (e.g., in Pakistan) is the murder of women by their husbands. These so-called "honor-killings" are, in fact, extremely dishonorable and are frequently used to camouflage other kinds of crimes.

Female children are discriminated against from the moment of birth, for it is customary in Muslim societies to regard a son as a gift, and a daughter as a trial, from God. Therefore, the birth of a son is an occasion for celebration while the birth of a daughter calls for commiseration if not lamentation. Many girls are married when they are still minors, even though marriage in Islam is a contract and presupposes that the contracting parties are both consenting adults. Even though so much Qur'anic legislation is aimed at protecting the rights of women in the context of marriage[54] women cannot claim equality with their husbands. The husband, in fact, is regarded as his wife's gateway to heaven or hell and the arbiter of her final destiny. That such an idea can exist within the framework of Islam - which, in theory, rejects the idea of there being any intermediary between a believer and God - represents both a profound irony and a great tragedy. "

See - that's the difference between theory and practice that you deliberately choose to ignore. I'm sure in the US you're not very likely to have your freedom limited, but, you know, there's a whole wide world outside your door.

If you failed to notice, this thread here was not about the theory of religion. It was about the domestic violence in Lebanon as contrasted to domestic violence in Europe (France was mentioned in the TV programme). Some members expressed their horror to hear that the police wouldn't help a battered woman. When you cut in trying to undermine the source, I wondered what you think about domestic violence in Lebanon. It seems you think it's just a bunch of lies. So I decided to look up another source as any Israeli based doesn't come up to your expectations. I did - I found one and what happens? You ignore it but immediately try to undermine an extra link for the reason it is from Christian perspective. And, if I asked you to ignore the second link, what makes the first one lack credibility?

92.       alameda
3499 posts
 22 May 2008 Thu 08:09 pm

'If you failed to notice, this thread here was not about the theory of religion. It was about the domestic violence in Lebanon'

Actually if you read the title of this thread is:

'Wife beating in Islam - the woman is totally isolated'

The difference my dear is that your source indicates that the problem is Islam. My source shows the problems arise in spite of Islam. There is a difference between what Islam teaches and what is practiced.

You use sources whose actual purpose is to disparage Islam, not learn about Islam. Dr Riffat Hassan is a Muslim woman scholar who looks at Islam from the inside, not the outside.

Muslim Women and Human Rights: The Unarticulated Quandary

Muslim women often find much support and sympathy in the West so long as they are seen as rebels and deviants within the world of Islam. But many of them begin to realize, sooner or later, that while they have serious difficulties with Muslim culture, they are also not able, for many reasons to identify with Western, secular culture. This realization leads them to feel - at least for a time - isolated and alone. Much attention has been focused, in the Western media and literature, on the sorry plight of Muslim women who are 'poor and oppressed' in visible or tangible ways. Hardly any notice has been taken, however, of the profound tragedy and trauma suffered by the self-aware Muslim women of today who are struggling to maintain their religious identity and personal autonomy in the face of the intransigence of Muslim culture, on the one hand, and the imperialism of Western, secular culture, on the other hand.'


Even in the video you uploaded, it clearly states the wife is NOT the husbands posession, she is not merchandise to do with what he wants. He should not bruise, break any bones, draw blood or hurt his wife.....so if one is not to hurt one's wife, how can one beat her?

In the translation in your clip, the word used is: 'idribuhunna'. The root of that word is daraba, which has many meanings, the meaning is based on the context in which it is used. Such a simplistic translation as 'beat' hardly could qualify as an honest translation, particularly in light of today's understanding of the word 'to beat'.

A Famous Multi-Meaning Word

The problem comes from the word 'Idribuhunne' which we used to translate as 'beat them'. The root of this word is 'DaRaBa'. If you look at any Arabic dictionary you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. That list is one of the longest list in whole Arabic dictionary. It can be said that 'DaRaBa' is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273
To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
To beat: 8:50; 47:27
To set up: 43:58; 57:13
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
To take away, to ignore: 43:5
To condemn: 2:61
To seal, to draw over: 18:11
To cover: 24:31
To explain: 13:17

As you see, in Quran alone we can witness the verb 'DaRaBa' having at least ten different meanings. 'DaRaBa' has also other meanings which are not mentioned in the Quran. For example, in the Arabic language, you do not print money--you 'DaRaBa' money, you do not multiply numbers--you 'DaRaBa' numbers, you do not cease the work--you 'DaRaBa' the work. In Turkish we have many verbs similar to DaRaBa, such as 'tutmak', 'calmak', 'vurmak' etc. In English we have two verbs which are almost equivalent to 'DaRaBa'. These are 'strike' and 'beat'.


beating woman

93.       catwoman
8933 posts
 22 May 2008 Thu 10:13 pm

Quoting alameda:

The difference my dear is that your source indicates that the problem is Islam. My source shows the problems arise in spite of Islam.


The problem exists despite Islam, but Islam openly encourages it (along with other gender racisms), which consequently leads to what is called "gender apartheidt" in Islam.

94.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 01:30 pm

Quoting alameda:



There is a difference between what Islam teaches and what is practiced.


Now, isn't that what I stated in the post just above yours?

You may hate it, but some people who call themselves Muslim do actually interpret (read/apply) everything in a different way than you do. And even is what Quran says doesn't read to you as permission to beat a wife, they will find a way to interpret it as they wish. So, the problem is Islam. Like I've said many times - I am not t6o judge what the Real Islam is because they will say their way is the right way and you, having a totally different understanding basing on the same source, will say that's not what Quran teaches.

But what difference does it make if your idea of Islam is different to theirs if you don't state it loud and clear that they are abusing your religion. It is not Christians or Jews that make those guys beat their wives, rape little girls and treat women as inferior. It is what they - Muslims - make themselves out of the same sources that you have.



Quote:

Even in the video you uploaded, it clearly states the wife is NOT the husbands posession, she is not merchandise to do with what he wants. He should not bruise, break any bones, draw blood or hurt his wife.....so if one is not to hurt one's wife, how can one beat her?


There are ways of beating that leave no bruises and break no bones. The word 'hurt' is, as I understand it, used to describe bruising or breaking bones.


Quote:

The problem comes from the word 'Idribuhunne' which we used to translate as 'beat them'.It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273
To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
To beat: 8:50; 47:27
To set up: 43:58; 57:13
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
To take away, to ignore: 43:5
To condemn: 2:61
To seal, to draw over: 18:11
To cover: 24:31
To explain: 13:17



Hmm interesting, I just wonder which of these may collocate with breaking bones and bruising and not doing it on the face. Covering? Giving example? I might be biased but in sentences like: 'Don't X your wife in a way that leaves bruises or breaks bones. Don't X your wife in front of the children. And don't X her on the face' (where X is a verb) the only logical substitution would be that of 'to beat' Unless you want not to ignore your wife in a way that leaves bruises.

Also, you're wrong about me trying to disparage Islam. Its followers do it way better than I ever could. I'm just commenting on the things that do not agree with my moral and ethical codes. If I read about people calling themselves Muslim and believing in Allah who act like animals and justify their behaviour by their religion, I can't ignore the fact that they consider themselves to be following the word of Allah. You may do it by quoting proper verses from Quran, by telling them that they are wrong. But instead of that, you choose to act as if it wasn't a problem of religion (of applying religion to be precise) and you engage yourself in nonsensical crusade of discrediting non-Muslim sources.

Copy,paste as many links to show the beauty of Islam, you won't change the fact that people suffer because some Muslims have a different approach to it. And they, Muslims themselves, make Islam a religion of fear and violence although Muhammed's idea of it might have been different. And the world stands against that Islam - the terrorists, the wife battering scums, the child molesters. Not against people who decide to praise a god called Allah, people who are full of love for this world, people who respect all others in spite of what they believe in (or not believe in).

95.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 05:36 pm

Again, im late to respone, hows catwoman's provoking site going ?


Quoting Daydreamer:

do you really think that women in Arab counties have as many rights that they can exercise as in, let's say, Europe?


I have no claim like above but i have problems with the ones who tries to stick all wrong-doings in the name Islam instead of people or states or traditions or politics, mixing all of them.
I dont think u pay attention but let me give a link from a Quranic perspective of Women in Islam.

Quoting Daydreamer:

It is nobody's aim here to show that Islam is bad, Europe is grand.



Then whats the aim of posting propogand videos here?

Quoting Daydreamer:

But you have to be blind not to notice huge differences as far as the approach to women goes.



So what is the point? Mean to say it is the fault of Islam? Please say it clearly, dont hide ur feelings like warmonger, unbalanced catwoman. You have to be blind not to notice it is not .

Quoting Daydreamer:

Of course, you may live a happy life thinking that all media lies and all are Israeli (or Jewish) propaganda. Well, they're not.


Didnt you confess also about the anti-islamic broadcasting of media? Do u remember media propogand before 2001? You may live a happy life thinking Islam is the most violent religion. But sudenly i realized, u change ur opinions in ur last post. Anyway u can turn?

Quoting Daydreamer:

Not credible as she's based in the USA, right?


This will be or is a good material for propogand or for missionaries. Hey look, hows women treated in Islam the most violent religion ? Being unaware that none of them are orders of Islam.

Quoting Daydreamer:

I don't understand why you're deciding to turn a blind eye to what goes on in the world...


Same applies to you also.

Quoting Daydreamer:

Actually I don't consider myself very open-minded.


Post was not adressed to you , you replied, anyways…

Quoting Daydreamer:

Actually I don't consider myself very open-minded. What I questioned, however, was the intention why you expressed such support to Alameda-The-Israeli-Is-Unreliable, if you support what she believes in so much, it means you find the situation depicted in the videos that you didn't watch not credible. And the fact that it was a video translated by an organisation sponsored by the Israeli intelligence, made you agree on its lack of credibility. And, consequently, if you find those videos not true, it means that you find the situation of women in Arab countries (Lebanon here) different to what those videos show.



I thanked to Alameda because she researched and unveiled the intention behind the video. I have never said anything about the videos whether they are depicted true or not. Blaming Islam results nothing, only hatred between the people grows as i said before.

Then lets see as an example what some passasges of bibles says about women which gathers no result and still billions believe them nothing matters if they practice or not...

Quote:

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [c] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.



Source

And again good research Alameda about the word 'dharaba'. Edip Yüksel who i do not always agree, translated the word in that verse like 'admonish them with examples' which maybe the closest meaning i think.

96.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 06:10 pm

Sorry, I don't have much time so I'll be quick. Bible is cruel and calls for people to act in a cruel way? Of course! Like 99% of religions invented by men it treats women as inferior etc. No surprise here. That's why in Middle Ages women were falling like flies. But, if you agree, it is 21st century and nobody but psychopaths would quote and follow those lines. And if they did, they'd be apprehended for that. Unfortunately it's not the case with Quoran quoting psychopaths from the east.

Why do I write that it is Islam that is responsible for it? because it is what those people say, go to other forums (not the ones with Muslims only) and see that Muslims often believe where women's position is. Like I said earlier (dunno if you read it) the people who do it call themselves Muslim and say they base their acts on the what Quran says.

Of course it's mainly a matter of tradition and social acceptance that women rank somewhere behind a donkey, but, ironically, people treating those women like that raise hands with Quran in them. I don't understand why Muslim organisations who don't accept domestic violence as sign of following the word of god, won't make a stand and influence those who are stuck in what was the Middle Ages for Christians.

I did comment on media's bias in the sense that they love sensation. If you have Muslims planting flowers or braiding beard nobody watches that. But give us Muslims killing each other or giving pieces of advice on how to beat your wife and we will watch it. The fact it is propaganda and bias doesn't make it untrue, does it?

Oh, and that attempt with the meaning - that was actually weak, as I showed in the previous post. Was this word without context, its meaning might be doubtful.

97.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 07:07 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Oh, and that attempt with the meaning - that was actually weak, as I showed in the previous post. Was this word without context, its meaning might be doubtful.


Let me give another example of this word through Kuran. For example, “idribbiAAasaka alhajara” is normally translated with “hit the rock with your staff”. Here “idribbi” comes from “Darb” and is referred to the rock. Namely you can idrib=hit rock but you can also idrib=move the rock. This verse is from the parable of Moses in Kuran which is usually translated as “hit” under the influence of Bibles because in Bible Moses hit rock and the water came out but it can also mean Moses moved rock and water came out. Same is also valid for these verse. Possibly translators affected from hadiths influenced from Bibles which are very violent against women.
So it seems not weak, in Turkish translation of Kuran there are 3 different approach to that word.

98.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 07:29 pm

Quoting armegon:



To be honest, NOT relating "issues of women's rights in arabic countries with religion" is a bit naive!!
Why is the women in arabic countries have less rights than others, according to you?
Why is the difference between women in india and pakistan or afghanistan then? (They are very close to each other)
It seems to me, you are trying downplay the role of the religion here!
Compare the position of women in Turks before and after they encountered with islam ..
(actually, when I think of that way, the religion was one of the main contributers for many many things late started for Turks.. Turks were able to move into 'written culture' from 'verbal culture' 200 years later than the west..
Why do you think it was? who stopped it? Why were we late for industrial development do you think?)

As far as the video was made by Israeli intelligence or not, why dont you look at the content and criticize it?
Is the content wrong?
I will be very surprised if it is wrong actually!! And I am sure you know very well too that -possibly- the content is telling the truth..

As far as the finding different meanings of the words in Kuran..
Sorry, but, it is a very well known thing..Almost everybody agrees that what it meant in that verse..But when the criticisms rain from everywhere, this intensive 'face saving' search is starting...

As far as the verses from Bible is concerned, well.. good to know those..
But there is slight difference there..
In the west, not many people got killed because of adultery for the religious reasons!!
In the west, the religion does not play important role in people's daily life..

Anyway..
As i said before, kuran, as it is, is not compatible with the modern life..
(actually, it has been the case for a long time. You should just investigate why there has not been a serious scientist from islamic world for last 1000 years! Because science has always been thwarted by the belief that Kuran tells you everything so you dont need to investigate)

Kuran insists that muslims should live with sheria, which is highly questionable as far as juridical, political, democratic values are concerned in today's world.

A serious reform is absolutely necessary in Islam if it is going to exist in modern world.

99.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 07:39 pm

Ohhh Mr. thehandsom, you are asking too much, i wrote about these many times here and got bored. I dont have much that time to explain them, can u please do a little research about my posts here? Im the one here who always badly criticized so-called religious leaders, hadiths, cults and sheiks etc, maybe u can find ur answers ...

100.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 23 May 2008 Fri 07:43 pm

haha
I dont have time either mate..
And I am not looking for answers really as I dont have any unanswered questions about religions in my head.

But then, I would suggest, you should go to the source of the problem, rather than messing about sheiks, cults, hadiths etc..
lol

(129 Messages in 13 pages - View all)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13
Add reply to this discussion




Turkish Dictionary
Turkish Chat
Open mini chat
New in Forums
Why yer gördüm but yeri geziyorum
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much, makes perfect sense!
Etmeyi vs etmek
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much!
Görülmez vs görünmiyor
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much, very well explained!
Içeri and içeriye
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much for the detailed ...
Present continous tense
HaydiDeer: Got it, thank you!
Hic vs herhangi, degil vs yok
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much!
Rize Artvin Airport Transfer - Rize Tours
rizetours: Dear Guest; In order to make your Black Sea trip more enjoyable, our c...
What does \"kabul ettiğini\" mean?
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much for the detailed ...
Kimse vs biri (anyone)
HaydiDeer: Thank you!
Random Pictures of Turkey
Most liked
Major Vowel Harmony

Turkish lesson by admin
Level: beginner
Introduction

Turkish lesson by admin
Level: beginner