Turkish Politics |
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Why most 'educated' Turks are more close-minded!!
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| 100. |
17 Jun 2008 Tue 03:46 am |
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Quoting tamikidakika: Quoting thehandsom:
Tell us then.. Go on..
Tell what Kurds have done to Turks.
So we all learn.
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If you knew some Ottoman history you would be aware of the genocide in which the Kurds slaughtered 30,000 of Alevi Turks only in one day with the order of Yavuz.
So here is your chance to LEARN. |
Thanks for the info..
But it was 500 years ago though!
I knew Yavuz chopped every alevi's head until Caldiran (in the city of Van) along the way when he was going to battle with persians.
But never heard of what you say..
incase anybody is interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chaldiran
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| 101. |
17 Jun 2008 Tue 04:52 am |
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Quoting thehandsom:
But it was 500 years ago though!
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You asked what The Kurds have done to Turks, and I told what they did. If it`s a matter of time, why are you still making arguments over this silly "mountain Turks" phrase. It was 50 years ago!!!
Quoting thehandsom:
I knew Yavuz chopped every alevi's head until Caldiran (in the city of Van) along the way when he was going to battle with persians.
But never heard of what you say..
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read this article,
Turkmen Katliami
I would also suggest you to read "Osmanli`nin Kanli Tarihi" by Ismail Metin to see the Ottoman-Kurdish collaboration.
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| 102. |
17 Jun 2008 Tue 11:33 am |
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Quoting armegon:
Your agenda is simple, your agenda is no different than Ali Kemal’s agenda during the Independence war, your agenda is no different than the today’s so-called intellectuels who are paid by EU in order to weaken army or basis of Turkish Republic, your agenda is like the mentality that Turks cannot do anything by themselves. You are at the side of capital not the labour, you support globalisation not the independence. I come up with the ones like you, they all think people can be liberalized only sermoning about human-rights and freedom but they discard the economical and social rights, human-rights and freedom is nothing if people cannot live like a human. You simply support colonilisation. |
I'm not Handsom, but it froze me to read it. Weaken Turkish army? And what will happen after? All surrounding countries will attack you? And occupy your homeland? Right, all the countries are looking for it. Ok, perhaps I don't get the Turkish love for their army as, culturally, I've been taught that the more power the army has, the worse the result as army is a great field for abuse in dangerous hands. But, maybe, Turkish army is the only self-deciding institution of this kind. Also, I don't get that either globalise or be independent thought. No country exists on their own, even if they are not structured in organisations, they have treaties and pacts and other documents organising cooperation with other countries. I don't understand what you fear so much about other countries, like those in EU. Somehow, they didn't lose their cultural identity, they don't have the same laws, they are free to decide for themselves about key factors, other decisions are discussed and best options are advised. Is that so bad? Oh, right...I forgot that if Turkey was structured like that, everybody would immediately want to rob it. So many countries in Europe but everybody's hungry for Turkey.
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Hmmm, I have to say that you talking nonsense with your UFO simile, last time i gave you an example of Mumcu about this, i think you fail to understand or you are not able to understand. Thats not the fear, not the idea of “everybody is here to get Turkeyâ€, it is observation through the history, what Mumcu wrote was actually portraying future. Now let me ask, what will they gain if Turkey accept genocide? Whats the aim? What if Turkey declare the south east as a province? Whats the aim? Why do you think Turkey forced to sell lands on south east to Israelities? Why do you think Turkey trying to be alienated from nation state? More suitable for colony? |
Yeap, I guess I'm unable to understand as I've always had a problem with serious approach to conspiracy theories and mental conditions. Throughout history borders of all countries on all continents have been changing, was it all a conspiracy? Colonisation period is over as well. Those international treaties that you're so afraid of regulate it. They ensure that no country can colonise another one.
What will happen? Let me think...what happened to Germany when they were tried for genocide? Oh, I know. They were colonised - after all it's a nice, well-structured country in the heart of Europe. I don't recall exactly but I think it was either Poles or Jews that got it...
Quoting armegon: Ahh i forgot, im narrow-minded, here who says Kurds/PKK are freedom-fighters express their thoughts freely but when i say Kurds are nothing but new petrol guardians of Yankees then i became nationalist/racist. But in fact in my entire life i have no connection with the nationalists or ülkücü thats the ironic part |
Actually I don't remember anyone writing that PKK are freedom fighters, on the contrary, most members posting here consider them to be a terrorist organisation. Also, US interventions in the east have been widely commented here and usually in a very negative way. Sometimes Americans debate with those issues, sometimes they agree. I haven't noticed anyone being banned for criticising USA, nor have there been people praising terrorists (as far as I remember).
Quote: also i remember members who were forced to leave the site because of posting about sionism, some leave the site because of insults, labelings etc. |
Really? I don't remember that. But I do remember members who openly criticise Zionism and are still members here, also, a Jewish member deleted her membership as she found this site anti-semitic. How come that reading the same site we have such different opinions? Can you please give me the nicks of members forced to leave the site because of their opinions?
As for insults, don't you think this rule is right? Civilised people exchange views, boorish troublemakers do not discuss issues but insult - what good does it bring? Besides, I believe it's a standard in all fora that insults and vulgarism is forbidden.
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By my side, im not looking for positive things about Turkey, im only looking for honesty and justice. And you just have to get used the fact that people do not have to think like you especially for his own country so try to show some respect before labelling people. |
As a matter of fact I do realise that. Actually I think it is the nationalists that have a problem with people thinking not like them. As for respect, I respect people's right to express their opinions, whatever they are. But I also have the right to disagree with them. I don't see a problem here. There's a difference between 'You are stupid, shut up' and 'I don't agree with you.'
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Actually not, it is not so hard to observe this for a Turk in the forum, thats the reason there arent so many Turkish contributers to the site except the handsom with the not-secret agenda |
Wrong, there are many Turkish users, yet, they usually get busy spamming women with PMs or get the feeling of being exploited soon after joining this site (at least that was the case with some of my friends - they said they were flooded with translation requests while their questions about English were often left unanswered)
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Ohh thats good for you, then i can call you patriot and for sure most of the users are here patriot. I find ridiculous that you are obsessed with paranoia and nationalism more paranoid than the real paranoids.You forgot to say that “Ataturk is not godâ€. I got bored explaning the same thing. |
Yes, you may. And no, I'm not obsessed, it's just a reaction to the conspiracy theories some members here display.
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Who said they are experts? Thats not based on logic, thats based on facts actually. It is something like vicious circle, starts same, finishes same. Its something like programmed. |
Exactly! That's what you called them. In some of your posts you sarcastically called people speaking about Turkey experts. And I don't remember anyone calling themselves that. My point was that your understanding of facts does not need to be better than theirs. Even historians (who, I hope you'll agree here, are experts) disagree on some issues.
Quote: I think i have given you an example of this from the laws of Austria and France before, you never touched them and asking this to me again, i said again banishing people because of thoughts is wrong , as for the laws of Turkish some sure should be revised. |
Sorry, I must have missed them, I'll look for them in a moment. Great that we agree here about laws that need to change. But, try to be honest, if it hasn't been for the international reaction to it, would Turkey ever reconsider those laws? Perhaps, only because that evil west condemned Turkey for that, has Turkey decided to do something about it. If it hadn't been for the western reaction, why would people responsible for these laws want to change them?
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These are the liberals serve Soros, i explained their aims, now let me ask, is it true for them to slander Army and Atatürk? They go along with the islamists now.
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Ok, I got lost here again. I will never understand why it's bad to criticise army and Ataturk. If what they're saying is a lie, then they'll be easy to prove wrong, right? As for Islamists, I don't see a big difference between a system that does not allow open critique of everything, and a religious movement. I'd rather go for religion should be separated from politics, and heroes are a personal matter. Feel free to love God in any way you want, feel free not to admire a person only because you may be punished for that. And loving Army...that's what I don't get at all. Sure, army is necessary, especially in a hot-spot like Turkey, but it is not a creature with its own brain, it is a group of people trained to obey orders. Who can guarantee that those people on top serve good of an individual?
I'm sorry if I missed your point, but, in brief, do you believe that it should be illegal to criticise Ataturk and army? How does it correspond to what you wrote about crimes of thought and freedom of speech?
Do you think the evil west really wants to take over and colonise Turkey? Come on, 80 mln people...West Germany cannot get back on their economy after uniting with East Germany. Do you know what cost it would be to incorporate Turkey into a country. And which country would that be? Or, if those prospective occupants didn't want to invest in Turkey than why would they need it? To plough it? Parts of Europe lie barren and to plough them wouldn't mean having to go on a war. To enslave Turks? Kind of against human rights and then...why? To build pyramids? Sorry. Can you please explain to a non-expert why and who would like to colonise Turkey. Thanks
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| 103. |
17 Jun 2008 Tue 11:50 am |
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Found the piece about France. But, what I gather from this article EU condemned France for that.
"The various European institutions, eager not to be seen as possessing double-standards, have been as strong in their condemnations of France’s new bill as they have been of Turkey’s Article 301 in the past. Both pieces of legislation condemn the freedom of discussion on the 1915 genocide issue; in opposition, the respective governments only recognise the acceptance of the genocide (France) or the rejection of it (Turkey). EU Enlargement commissioner, Olli Rehn, has issued many warnings to Turkey over the literary controversies for “insulting Turkishness†but on 9 October, he turned to France to issue a similar warning : “…The French law on the Armenian genocide is of course a matter for French lawmakers, but there is a lot at stake for the European Union as well, and the decision may have very serious consequences for EU-Turkey relations … This [legislation] would put in danger the efforts of all those in Turkey – intellectuals, historians, academics, authors – who truly want to develop an open and serious debate without taboos and for the sake of freedom of expression.†That is to say, in a nutshell, that the predicament of problematic tensions is characterised by a removal of free expression on a very pertinent political issue as well as the damage to Turkey’s future relations in Europe."
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| 104. |
17 Jun 2008 Tue 01:06 pm |
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Quoting armegon: terrorism, the ones you callled 'young people'. Why you abstain to explain this? |
Well I always said PKK is a terrorist organisation and it is the product of Turkish nationalism which you support wholeheartedly.
Calling them 'young people' wont change this fact. And I mentioned previously, I am unable to understand the 'blood thirsty' hysteria which is supported the idiotic media with headlines 'killed 300/500/700'. End of the day, terrorists or not, you are killing citizens of Turkey and every half way decent thinking person acknowledges the fact that it is not helping 'the main objective of Turks and Kurds living peacefully'.
Quoting armegon:
Your agenda is simple, your agenda is no different than Ali Kemal’s agenda during the Independence war, your agenda is no different than the today’s so-called intellectuels who are paid by EU in order to weaken army or basis of Turkish Republic, your agenda is like the mentality that Turks cannot do anything by themselves. You are at the side of capital not the labour, you support globalisation not the independence. I come up with the ones like you, they all think people can be liberalized only sermoning about human-rights and freedom but they discard the economical and social rights, human-rights and freedom is nothing if people cannot live like a human. You simply support colonilisation. I bet you are a fan of Sorros.
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This is a gem I would like to say.
I can show you hundreds/thousands of same type of statements coming from the army generals. You are proving my case that they are not your ideas. They are 'inserted' into your brains.
I never said that 'Turks can not do anything by themselves'. On the contrary, I believe the potential but, boy, your ideas are in the way!
About globalisation,  , I have heard of many things about it and I would criticize it in generic terms but I would not never put 'if you support the globalisation you are against the independence'.
So where is this secret EU budget which is used to pay these human-rights and freedom loving Turkish intellects? eh?
Look.
This is simply a lie, came up from brain damaged politicians and 'fell off and bumped on the head during training' army generals. They even do NOT believe themselves when they are saying those things..They are addressed to you and you BITE it..
And who is this Sorros?
Quoting armegon:
This not secret agenda Mr.thehansom, this all tested and experienced during the history and still we experience not listening the pathetic statements of anyone. You really sold out and the sad thing is YOU REALIZE THIS .
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Now you are talking like a brain damaged person up there.
Please ask your parents if there was an accident, which a pot landed on your head when you were little and playing under a balcony, before labeling people like 'sold out'.
Quoting armegon:
You reach the truth via unique answer to a question, Mr thehandsom, i think YOU DONT REALIZE THIS TIME . Thats the fact, and their mission is to attack Mustafa Kemal, Army , try to belittle them in the eyes of Turkish nation, thats continuing propogand and thats the lesson but money given who take lessons .
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I never attack Ataturk. I really have huge respect for him. But the army is a different matter really..
I think of them the power player in the politics and since every power player in politics, they are tend to get corrupt.
I want army in its place.
But you, not wanting to see the army where it belongs to , ultimately betraying them.
Will you tell me where this lessons are and who pays/how much etc?
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