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What is wrong with Muslims?
(199 Messages in 20 pages - View all)
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100.       HomeSick
137 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 05:58 am

Quoting peacetrain:

This is interesting thank you. When you read, I presume you mean the scripture itself. Even the interpretation can differ at times. For instance Tafsir relating to the Qur'an. I read about Mohammed Asad and he is viewed by many as giving very accurate translation because of his command of the Arabic used in the Qur'an.

He lived for some time with a group of Bedouin whose Arabic most closely resembled that used in the Qur'an. He gives very good and lengthy detail for his reasons for chosing to go down a certain path with meanings of some words.



That is exactly what I meant, I for instance myself read different translations, see different interpretations. The problem is most of the words have multiple meanings and if the one who translates them is not carefull enough, the meaning changes.

Quote:


In the end it's down to personal preference. I'm reminded here of something somebody once said to me, which made me laugh to myself. I received an email from a revert who said he preferred the Ali Yusuf (I hope this is correct, it's late and I haven't time to check) translation of the Qur'an best because the style reminded him of the King James version of the Bible.



Yusuf Ali is one of the best, I recommended his translation many times to friends.

Quote:


As for other sources of knowledge, it is tricky. The boundaries between faith and culture can become fuzzy and even invisible to those who have lived their faith from birth. Some followers of any faith don't always have access to any source but their families and this can go on for generations. Misconceptions can accrue unintentionally.

Nowadays where do people go to first when they want to know something? Increasingly, to the WWW and , as we know, it is not without it's pitfalls by a long shot. Last year a friend of mine emailed the names of three sites, purporting to contain authoritative information on the belief system of Islam . . . the type of site someone would visit if they wanted to learn. It had been discovered that none of these sites was authentic, not established by Muslims, but in fact by people who wanted to spread misinformation about Islam.

I'm sure these aren't the only 3 sites and I'm sure Islam is not the only faith affected. I use it as an example because it's the experience I have.



Yes, that is the problem. People let culture effect their beleifs even they contradict with the scripture. But again I beleive that happens because we as people do not like reading that much

For instance, one little example, ask around , who is the first muslim ? Usual answer is our beloved prophet Muhammed (puh), but the correct answer is the prophet Abraham (puh) according to the scripture.

101.       HomeSick
137 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 06:05 am

And I just realized I am telling you things to beleive and accept.

You would better go and read for yourself hehe
And thanks for the intelligent and constructive discussion

102.       teaschip
3870 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 04:15 pm

Quote:

Regarding Catholics who disagree with the Pope, they are in fact not Catholics. In order to actually be a Catholic, you have to believe in what the Pope says. If you don't agree, you are not Catholic.

"Members must accept the church as having the fullness of revelation, and according to Roman Catholic catechism is the only Christian body that is "holy, universal and apostolic"



You have got to be kidding me Alameda..if this was the case the Catholic Church would have only a few members.

103.       KeithL
1455 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 05:10 pm

Quoting alameda:

Regarding Catholics who disagree with the Pope, they are in fact not Catholics. In order to actually be a Catholic, you have to believe in what the Pope says. If you don't agree, you are not Catholic.

"Members must accept the church as having the fullness of revelation, and according to Roman Catholic catechism is the only Christian body that is "holy, universal and apostolic"



There are several issues that I disagree strongly with the church, yet I am a Catholic. They should feel lucky that anyone calls themselves a Catholic after what the church has put us through over the last few decades. If they want to let me know I am no longer Catholic, I can stop sending the checks....

104.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 05:38 pm

Quoting alameda:

Regarding Catholics who disagree with the Pope, they are in fact not Catholics. In order to actually be a Catholic, you have to believe in what the Pope says. If you don't agree, you are not Catholic.


Alameda, it may seem strange to you and apparently, your experience is failing you, but Catholics aren't as obsessed about rules and authorities as Muslims are. Religion for Christians is mostly a private matter and most Christians are used to thinking for themselves about the scriptures. As unimaginable as it might be. :-S

105.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 06:56 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Religion for Christians is mostly a private matter




I think religion for most faiths is a private matter. It is only extremism at both ends of the spectrum and mutual ignorance (I don't use this word in a rude way) that brings it into the public domain.

Positive interfaith dialogue; reciprocal education about faiths; mutual trust; interfaith solidarity against extremism and misinformation across the faiths; multi faith condemnation of violence; less evangelism; more responsible media coverage; less dragging up the past; less; more working with warring sides.

Things we probably would like to see.

Can anyone direct me to the last bus leaving for Utopia?

I guess there's always hope.

106.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 08:10 pm

Quoting peacetrain:

Can anyone direct me to the last bus leaving for Utopia?


lol

however, if we cannot have a civilized conversation about the problems with today's islam, how can we say that utopia is an abstract idea anyway? so few muslims have been able to maturely converse about the violence and other problems with their religion, it's a shame.

107.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 09:18 pm

Quoting teaschip:

Quote:

Regarding Catholics who disagree with the Pope, they are in fact not Catholics. In order to actually be a Catholic, you have to believe in what the Pope says. If you don't agree, you are not Catholic.

"Members must accept the church as having the fullness of revelation, and according to Roman Catholic catechism is the only Christian body that is "holy, universal and apostolic"



You have got to be kidding me Alameda..if this was the case the Catholic Church would have only a few members.



Exactly my point.

108.       teaschip
3870 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 09:29 pm

Quoting alameda:

Quoting teaschip:

Quote:

Regarding Catholics who disagree with the Pope, they are in fact not Catholics. In order to actually be a Catholic, you have to believe in what the Pope says. If you don't agree, you are not Catholic.

"Members must accept the church as having the fullness of revelation, and according to Roman Catholic catechism is the only Christian body that is "holy, universal and apostolic"



You have got to be kidding me Alameda..if this was the case the Catholic Church would have only a few members.



Exactly my point.



Just because you don't believe in everything your religon stands for doesn't make you any less Christian than your fellow neighbor. So suppose I was Muslim and didn't pray 5x a day, am I considered a heathen?

Your perception is indeed wrong.

109.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 09:53 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peacetrain:

Can anyone direct me to the last bus leaving for Utopia?


lol

however, if we cannot have a civilized conversation about the problems with today's islam, how can we say that utopia is an abstract idea anyway? so few muslims have been able to maturely converse about the violence and other problems with their religion, it's a shame.



I think you have not understood the gist of my post that you have taken that quote from and my reference to Utopia was a statement about my own idealism.

I think if you read DK's post (#15 I think) you may understand a little better why some people silently or otherwise ( ) don't agree with your approach so don't wish to get into such a discussion with you.

Of course there have been people who disagree with you who don't react to a flame in a mature or civilised way but there are several that do, even though they are sorely tested at times.

Quoting catwoman:


Simply, the majority - silently or not - condones the voice of increasingly growing numbers of extremists.
...
Ed Husein who are progressive, thoughtful and create a vision of islam that we can all respect and love, but their lives are threatened in the muslim community. The majority of muslims hate them... although many - silently - also feel relieved to hear their voices.



I'm confused now. Does a Muslims silence mean he/she is:

a) pro violent extremism by people who believe they are Muslims
b) pro people who speak out against (a)
c) not bothered either way
d) determined to get drawn into a flame row
e) agreeing with some of a to d
f) agreeing with none of a to e
g) preserving his/her right to discuss such issues when and where they see fit.
h) too busy trying to grasp mind reading techniques
i) too busy trying to determine how long a piece of string is
j) wondering: Would society as we know it be different if Archimedes had been averse to bathing?

The permutations are endless.

Is there a credible, scientifically tested school of thought that proves 'silence' means agreement or disagreement with an issue? Do I have to be able to read the minds of the 'silent' majority/minority/element? Or can I simply use it in an effort to make a point of view watertight? I've practised it above btw .

This 'silence' is a tricky little blighter

N.B. 'you' is meant generally.

That's all thanks.

110.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Jul 2008 Tue 10:23 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting alameda:

Regarding Catholics who disagree with the Pope, they are in fact not Catholics. In order to actually be a Catholic, you have to believe in what the Pope says. If you don't agree, you are not Catholic.

'Members must accept the church as having the fullness of revelation, and according to Roman Catholic catechism is the only Christian body that is 'holy, universal and apostolic'



There are several issues that I disagree strongly with the church, yet I am a Catholic. They should feel lucky that anyone calls themselves a Catholic after what the church has put us through over the last few decades. If they want to let me know I am no longer Catholic, I can stop sending the checks....



Keith, I respect the fact that you take this seriously, however if you study the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, and then analyze what you actually believe, you may come to a different conclusion. There are more than a few causes for automatic excommunication.

One of the principal doctrines of the Catholic Church is:

Papal Infallability

Of course, they are more than happy to get your checks. These days the Catholic Church is very weak and in decline. They do not ask many just what they believe. If they did, many might just find themselves excommunicated and they would be without checks from a lot of people.


Finding one's spiritual path is not an easy task.

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