Who Remembers?

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/09/europe/EU-Bosnia-Srebrenica.php

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/galeridetay.aspx?cid=13992&rid=2

Timeline: Siege of Srebrenica
In the summer of 1995, two years after being designated a United Nations Safe Area, the Bosnian town of Srebrenica became the scene of the worst massacre in the Bosnian war.
This is an account of the critical days leading up to the killings.

6 - 8 July 1995: Bosnian Serb forces had laid siege to the Srebrenica enclave, where tens of thousands of civilians had taken refuge from earlier Serb offensives in north-eastern Bosnia.


Survivors from Srebrenica fled to Muslim-held territory
They were under the protection of about 600 lightly armed Dutch infantry forces. Fuel was running out and no fresh food had been brought into the enclave since May.

Serb forces began shelling Srebrenica. Bosnian Muslim fighters in the town asked for the return of weapons they had surrendered to the peacekeepers but their request was refused.

The Dutch commander called UN Headquarters in Sarajevo asking for "close air support" after shells and rockets landed close to refugee centres and observation posts manned by peacekeepers.

Serbs advance on Srebrenica
9 July 1995: The Bosnian Serbs stepped up their shelling and thousands of refugees fled to the town from southern camps ahead of advancing Serbs, who attacked Dutch observation posts, taking about 30 soldiers hostage.

One peacekeeper was fatally wounded when Bosnian Muslims fired on retreating Dutch troops.

10 July 1995: Dutch Commander Colonel Karremans filed a request for UN air support after the Bosnian Serbs shelled Dutch positions. UN Commander General Janvier initially refused, but agreed after another request from the colonel. Serb attacks stopped before the planes arrived and strikes were postponed.

Some 4,000 refugees were in the town by the evening and there was panic on the streets. Large crowds were gathered around the Dutch positions.

The Dutch commander told town leaders that Nato planes would launch massive air attacks against the Serbs if they had not withdrawn from the safe area by 0600 the following morning.

11 July 1995: The Serb forces did not withdraw, but at 0900 Colonel Karremans received word from Sarajevo that his request for close air support had been submitted on the wrong form. At 1030, the re-submitted request reached General Janvier, but Nato planes had to return to base in Italy to refuel after being airborne since 0600. By midday, more than 20,000 refugees - mostly women, children and the infirm - fled to the main Dutch base at Potocari.

At 1430, two Dutch F-16 fighters dropped two bombs on Serb positions surrounding Srebrenica. The Serbs responded with a threat to kill their Dutch hostages and shell refugees, causing the suspension of further strikes.

The Bosnian Serb commander Ratko Mladic entered Srebrenica two hours later, accompanied by Serb camera crews. In the evening, General Mladic summoned Colonel Karremans to a meeting at which he delivered an ultimatum that the Muslims must hand over their weapons to guarantee their lives.

Serbs seize control
12 July 1995: Buses arrived to take women and children to Muslim territory, while the Serbs begin separating out all men from age 12 to 77 for "interrogation for suspected war crimes".


Ratko Mladic (left) drank with Dutch Col Ton Karremans on 12 July
It is estimated that 23,000 women and children were deported in the next 30 hours. Hundreds of men were held in trucks and warehouses.

About 15,000 Bosnian Muslim fighters had attempted to escape from Srebrenica overnight and were shelled as they fled through the mountains.

Fears for 'missing' refugees
13 July 1995: The first killings of unarmed Muslims took place in a warehouse in the nearby village of Kravica.

Peacekeepers handed over about 5,000 Muslims who had been sheltering at the Dutch base at Potocari. In return, the Bosnian Serbs released 14 Dutch peacekeepers who had been held at the Nova Kasaba base.

16 July 1995: Early reports of massacres emerged as the first survivors of the long march from Srebrenica began to arrive in Muslim-held territory.

Following negotiations between the UN and the Bosnian Serbs, the Dutch were at last permitted to leave Srebrenica, leaving behind weapons, food and medical supplies.

In the five days after Bosnian Serb forces overran Srebrenica, more than 8,000 Muslim men are thought to have been killed.
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After the Genocide was over with Mladic and his men and Dutch Generals have shared drinks, exchanged gifts and danced well into the night knowing they would be leaving Srebrenica. The Dutch Col Ton Karremans named the Srebrenica siege as nothing more but an "Excellently planned Military operation"

The death toll stands at over 8,000 dead and counting, by this summer nearly 300 more corpses have been recovered at the site.

Not to say that this wasn't hideous and horrible, but according to some sources, what Turkey has done to Kurds in the Southeast was far worse then any of the atrocities of the 1990s.

Chomsky

You mean the massacre? This was never found to be a genocide by the ICJ. However, was ruled by the ICT that it was. You must understand this very confusing. Just like the Armenian Genocide, some say it was indeed a Genocide, others indicate it as a massacre. Either way both were terrible.

UN's top court clears Serbia of genocide during Bosnian war

The matter in Bosnia, tragic as it was, is a complicated issue and simplifying it as Christians killing Muslims is a mistake. To get that focus on the history of that region, a mixture of countries and nationalities forced to live together. A mixture that had no power of decision on their own, a mixture controlled from Moscow. Suddenly communism falls and nationalistic movements appear, some countries want to leave the union, some believe it's better to stay as one big country. Can you imagine Kurds declaring independence? Would Turkey say "Sure, go ahead"? UN ruled out genocide because who should be blamed? There is a difference between Serbs (as a nation living in Serbia) and Bosnian Serbs (Bosnians of Serb descent who lived in the Bosnian territory before it was Bosnian). What happened in Srebrenica was a tragedy, nobody says it wasn't, but it was about national independence and ethnic cleansing than religion. Bosniaks were not exterminated so brutally because they were Muslims, among them were many who were as Orthodox as Bosnian Serbs.

I can't agree with you, genocide is genocide regardless of what nationality is murdered. Read the list in Wiki and you'll see that what you consider Christian countries were held responsible many times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history

And Holocaust is not a minor thing, it's the bloodiest crime against humanity in modern history.

Saying that it's hard to find a country to blame for Bosnian massacre, I meant what country would you hold responsible? Serbia? Bosnia itself? It was the period of transformation and you cannot blame one country for what happened before that country came into being.

I think you're obsessed with religious notions. It is all about money and power, not religion. Crusades are over for a long time (ask Alameda who loves linking it if you don't believe).

Guys, read more carefully, 2 posts above I gave my reasons for such a statement.

Right, no one wants to admit what they did, I don`t expect America to recognize the native american genocide or France to recognize the algerian genocide. But what Im asking is why does England recognize the so called armenian genocide but not the algerian genocide, or Why does France recognize the so called armenian genocide but not the Native American genocide?


You`re saying that the west admits the crimes of the ussr but which western country recognizes the genocide that wiped off the whole Crimean Turks? I don`t care about a few western historians` acknowledging that the Russian did it?

I`m asking this again, can you tell me a genocide that is carried out by Christians against non-Christians and recognized as a genocide by the western countries (accept the holocaust), and I mean recognizing it politically, like what they did in the case of the so called armenian genocide.

I've already given you examples but..

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/show.php?id=1693

"Sixty two years ago, on 23 February 1944, Stalin ordered the deportation
of the entire Chechen and Ingush population to Central Asia. More than
half of the 500,000 people who were to be forcibly transported died in
transit or in massacres committed by Soviet troops. Those who survived the journey were left facing starvation and disease in the harsh winters of Siberia and Central Asia.

Within days an entire people had been erased from the land of their
ancestors. Overnight Chechnya and Ingushetia were emptied of their native inhabitants, and every reference to Chechnya was removed from official maps, records and encyclopaedias. Finally, in 2004, the European Parliament recognised this tragedy as a genocide. "

See, Chechens are Muslims, yet the biased west recognised that Christian Russia was guilty of genocide.

See - that's your problem - you go "give me an example" I provide it and you go, "No, not enough, give me another" Sorry, I am way too busy to list all of them (use google ) if it's not going to get through to you anyway. It's just a waste of time

I'll give you a hint - there's plenty of them

But no point quoting if you still will stick to the bad west, poor east story - open your mind!

Anyway, gotta go, have fun looking for conspiracies, plots and the like

As French writer mentioned “Europe died in Bosnia”.

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What's going on? I posted this today:

Quoting Daydreamer: Guys, read more carefully, 2 posts above I gave my reasons for such a statement. Quoting Daydreamer: Not really, communistic crimes are also recognised by the west and communistic countries, like USSR although were to be ideologically atheistic had Christian minorities . Russia is accused of extermination of Chechens (Muslims) and Kazakhs (Muslims) and it's admitted wide and loud (of course Russia doesn't admit it following the trend of "We didn't do it") Ouch! Ok, I know where the mistake is - I didn't mean "minorities" but "majority" - SORRY! That created the confusion. The thing is communism wanted to achieve atheistic society but they failed. ZZ, the number of Orthodox Christians in contemporary Russia is 90% so it's not really a small number. Sorry for the mess, I guess I'm not so logical in the morning Still, the point I made is valid.

I can see the difficulty Tamikidakika is facing in this thread. (It is very common between Turkish diplomats or Turks living abroad)

When you are talking about the massacre (or genocide) in Bosnia, you have to be prepared to answer questions about the kurds and 'but our is terrorism' is not a good answer. You should be able to explain how thousands of Kurds died (I remember giving the values before: around 40.000 total, ~6.000 armed forces/police ~6.000 civilians the rest is terrorist- in many cases, civilians counted as terrorists-, thousands of unexplained disapeances).

Not only on this case, but we should be explain the 'foreign countries supporting the terrorism' and the support we have been giving to Chechens and general Dostum in Afghanistan.

The other difficult one for example is about Cyprus. We insist that there should be two state solution because the Turkish minority wants it but at the same time when someone talks about Kurdish minority rights or federation or two state solution about the Kurdish problem we put them in jail.(It does not mean that I see two state solution or federation as a solution to our Kurdish problem. I am just simply trying to show the hypocracy here)

Anyway,
I will go with the original thread and condemn the massacre or genocide(whatever it is called and I don't care much to be honest)
It was simply a treacherous slaughter to kill unarmed men because they had different ethnicity or religion.
It happened in the middle of Europe; it happened in front our eyes; it happened in recent times.
I think this event is a huge shame and it will always stay as a shameful dark spot in Europe's history.

Words of wisdom from Thehandsom as always

It is a tragedy just as any death is. Wars are dreadful and nobody can state the otherwise. We can only hope the Balkan Melting Pot will come to peace finally and such things will never happen again. I'd hate to see any more Serbs, Bosniaks, Russians or Afghans die

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Actually killings in Chechnia continue until this day and calling Russia communistic now is an insult (Also, the world condemns Russian actions there) As for recognised non communistic, Christian genocide against non-Christian communities, I've already written about Milosevic and crimes of his regime (way after communism in Yugoslavia came down). What can be added is Rwanda and Catholic priests sentenced for assisting in genocide.

I can't understand the point of Tamidakkika and your posts - Tami insists that it's not fair to blame Turkey for Armenian genocide as it was before the Turkish Republic came into being. Yet, USSR is an example of a country in similar position and thus proves that accusations against Turks are not unique.

If we speak about far away past, nobody claims that America was peacefully taken over by Europeans, same goes for Australia. And the Church has apologised for their crimes against humanity many times. Yet, you can't see it So, sorry, but I can't see what great conspiracy the world hides again. Maybe it's the UFO that Tami gets his ideas from...

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