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Islam in Turkey is make-believe
(93 Messages in 10 pages - View all)
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30.       armegon
1872 posts
 22 Sep 2008 Mon 05:09 am

Ben diyorum bayram haftası, siz anlıyorsunuz mantar tahtası lol. Firstly, religion do not try to explain the origins of anythings, it only accepts. Im talking about definitions, you are talking about history, superstitions and people who tried to explain mysteries using superstitions.

 

Besides there is a sharp difference between science and religion. It is clear that source, goal and method of scientific knowledge is different than religious knowledge. Scientific knowledge uses human intelligence as a source, its goal is to define and discover universe and its method is experiments whereas religious knowledge´s source is God, its goal is to make people live due human-being creation and its method is divine inspirations and prophets. So in religions the most important factor is faith. But also many philosophers think that faith is to be supported by wisdom and intellect. So people use science to observe universe not religion. Religion uses meta-physical knowledge in relations of God and people, which is not scientific. One is scientific knowledge, other not. Thats what i mean to say you confuse terms. Science and religion do overlap??,  this is about what you understand from the word "overlap", i think is not, since the methods and sources are different, thats why i said "science do not try to prove or disprove God" because science bounded with the laws of universe.

 

Surely people do not believe that is something known, because thats already known. So the knowledge related  to faith, has to be something that cannot be disproven, otherwise this is called superstition and then cognition supersedes into faith. People who do not perceive this and still believe superstitions are the ones you continously mention in your posts.

 

Finally religions do take subject as morality, meta-physics, object lessons and advices not the science. So we should look at religions in this perspective not like biology or physics. Thats my point...

Quoting Daydreamer

Of course science and religion overlap as they both try to explain the origin of things. Science does it by objective methods, religion posts a theory and requires that people believe it not asking for proves. Religion is an authocratic science where all proves can be limited to "because our Holy Book says so" - from the beginning of ages those who had scientific knowledge formed religious power and protected their knowledge from the public. Take the Egyptian priests at the times of pharaos - their scientific knowledge was impressive and often they´d use it as proof of divine presence.

 

Later on religion was used as a collection of rules of hygiene, social convenance and science - nobody would dare to question powerful religion mongers as they´d always refer them to THE BOOK. That´s still the case in religious countries, people agree to being made fools of hoping somebody will make it up to them after death.

 

 

31.       CANLI
5084 posts
 22 Sep 2008 Mon 06:07 am

 

Quoting Trudy

I am not a Muslim, but can you then explain why the things I hear about rules/laws from the Qu´ran are so different when said by a wahabist imam or a (regular) sunni/shi´i imam? The only ones I hear talking about ´don´t shake hands with a woman´, ´a burka is compulsory´, ´gays should be pushed of a building with their heads down´ etc. are wahabists. We have quite a few here in the Netherlands and there were many problems with them and their followers, while with others there were not, or at least not that big problems.

 

I think imams from the several (I´ve heard there are 7 schools all have several and sometimes very different ideas about what and how to tell/teach.

 

70 ?!

 

Look Trudy,actually things are very much simple

To be a Muslim you must accept 2 things,and believe them deep into your heart ´Akida´ which means deep believe

That there is only one God ALLAH and Mohamed SAV is his last messenger.

Muslims have no differnces upon this,and who has,i can freely call him/her not muslims.

And in that believe we are ordered to follow 2 things...Qur´an which are words of ALLAH,and Hadith,which are words of Rasul SAV.

 

So by those 2 things and in those 2 things we judge,i personally dont know wahabist,Sunni,Shi´i...etc

İ know those!

Someone comes to me tells me...Burka is compulsory..i say ok...show me in the book..tell me Hadith

İf he did,and show it to me..ok then it is...if not...so...sorry,its not compulsory

 

´gays should be pushed of a building with their heads down´...mmm !

Did theye even have any buildings at that time ?!!!

Anyway,same...here is the book,show me...Hadith...tell me

İf he/she did,then we start to talk,if not...then nope sorry

 

Those are our judges

And not just showing it to me and explaining it as they want.

İ know/read/search the back ground of the hadith,and what happened and in what incident it has been said,then if its same case with same given data ,then ok,i accept that judgement,if not...then he/she can keep his/her opinion to her/himself !

 

İm sorry Trudy,but yes anyone can say what he/she wants...but we have 1 book,and also we have specific hadith those are no doubts about them we go back to them

Those are our teachers/judges,guides...etc

´´there was a time in the past when they were fighting İslam,so the wrote hadith silly ones,and said Rasul SAV said them to mislead muslims,and separate them,so imams on that time reviwed all hadith,and decided which is strong and which ones those people put them´´ 

And ALLAH gave us mind,so at any matter,we judge by our book,hadith of Rasul,and see if we accept the given explanation or not.

 

So even when imams say opinions,explain something...we ask...about Qur´an,about hadith that got that Fatwa ´opinion´ from then we accept it or not.

And also that is what ALLAH ordered us to do,and gave us minds to use,and later HE will ask us,Havent İ gave you Qur´an,havent İ sent you my massenger to clarify what is hard for you,havent İ gave you minds to use

then why have you did so and so ?! 

So we better have an answer to that,also that one who said ´gays should be pushed of a building with their heads down´

HE will ask him to get it from book,from hadith not from wahhabi/sunni/shi´i or whatever...and he better has an answer...if there is any !

 

 

 

32.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 22 Sep 2008 Mon 09:43 am

If religion doesn´t offer an explanation of the origin of things then I must have read about Adam and Eve somewhere else lol. And it was not religious leaders who burnt scientists on stake for having revolutionary theories that didn´t agree with what the religious lot accepted. Are you sure we grew up in the same universe? {#lang_emotions_unsure}

 

Of course the difference between religion and science is huge. Science is fact-oriented while religion is a made-up bunch of nonsense that might have held 1000 years ago and it´s based on belief not fact. Thus it offers a non-demanding answer to all your questions - god´s will.

33.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 22 Sep 2008 Mon 09:51 am

 

Quoting Daydreamer

Thus it offers a non-demanding answer to all your questions - god´s will.

 

 As written by man.  {#lang_emotions_wink}

34.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 22 Sep 2008 Mon 10:09 am

 

Quoting girleegirl

 As written by man.  {#lang_emotions_wink}

 

Of course! The only gender who´s right by the virtue of their dangling evidence

35.       armegon
1872 posts
 22 Sep 2008 Mon 12:31 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

If religion doesn´t offer an explanation of the origin of things then I must have read about Adam and Eve somewhere else lol.

 

Yeah you have to read more because religion(i mean the monotheist ones) accepts every single susbsistence, thing created by God firstly. And you are again talking about religious leaders instead of religion and science.

36.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 22 Sep 2008 Mon 05:18 pm

must have read and must read are two totally different things. And religion would not exists without religious leaders who promote/interpret it and control god-fearing mob. Religion doesn´t exists without followers thus you can´t speak about one without the other.

37.       vineyards
1954 posts
 23 Sep 2008 Tue 07:35 pm

I wish all the religions went down the sink

Allegedly quoted from K. Atatürk

38.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 12:12 am

 

Quoting WarTrain

Actually I rather like Turkey´s attitude to religion - it reminds me of the UK.  We have a kind of religion but only pick out the nice bits ... then gradually as you get older (and think about dying) you suddenly panic and feel its time to get some good points with God/Allah and become devout.

 

Please don´t change (and don´t stop getting "ill" during Ramadan) - it is one of the things I love about you raki drinking, tobacco smoking Turkish muslims!

 

 This made me laugh so hard....Thanks WT! {#lang_emotions_lol_fast}

39.       mltm
3690 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 01:03 am

 

Quoting vineyards

I wish all the religions went down the sink

Allegedly quoted from K. Atatürk

 

 I had deleted this claim without source but it was undeleted by the freedom of speech committee.

 

Such a claim without source is not accepted. Show the source, show a reliable source, show us who claimed this.

 

40.       vineyards
1954 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 01:10 am

I would like to propose a toast to "freedom of speech committee". Now we are all free to question validity of this remark.

 

P.S. I have already promised to find the book where the quotation was made from but it will take time.

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