Thanks for sharing but is this about "Turkey"? I mean, I guess that is for "off-topic" more, isn´t it?

 Moving it to General/Off topic

I often wear a headscarf - for fashion rather than religious reasons

And I often get stared at - but ´m not sure it the headscarf that attracts the stares

 I am not sure what one particular item would make me stare at you, bod....but I am fairly sure I would....

Staring at people is not a very nice thing to do Elisabeth!!!

 I didn´t think YOU would mind bod!!

Well - I am used to being stared at.......

I have no idea why though

I can´t imagine. 

Well, she has a very important point. It is so sickening to hear that some people think of you as a terrorist because you have a headscarf, so unacceptable... I do think that in today´s world, especially in the west, a burka might cause some uneasy feelings because of security issues and it should not be allowed especially in public places. But comparing all muslims to terrorists is disgusting.

 I agree, but one of the London bombers escaped to Pakistan (I think) in a Burka, so of course it makes you supicous. 

And today I sat on the tube in London next to a woman in a complete black Burka, with just her eyes showing, in fact she kept pulling the bit that goes over the nose and mouth down as it was distracting her view of her mobile phone.

LL I think you are referring to a niqab. Burkas are completely closed and you probably have only little vision with the net covering your eyes. It must be really unfomfortable.. only Afghan women use it as I´m aware. With a niqab you are not "detached" from the world as you can be in a burka because your eyes are uncovered.

 You know, I have to agree with you here. A full burka is over the top, and does present a security issue. You don´t know if it´s male or female, or if something dangerous is concealed. In the country where people are used to seeing something like that is different, but in a place like London or any "Western" country, it´s disconcerting.

What would the reaction be if someone went into a bank with a balaclava mask on?

It is nice to be able to see one´s face. We take a lot of information from the expressions on people´s face.

I try not to go out on Halloween, all those people in full costume scare me. I remember being on the subway in New York City on Halloween afternoon and seeing people with full head coverings with just holes for eyes....ahewwww....particularly the Fredy Kruger and other type  masks... Have you seen the bikers masks?

I agree that burkas present a security issue and should not be permitted in public places. They kind of look like those suits apiarists use and are (as far as I know) only used for cultural reasons.

Here´s my musical contribution to the topic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehljR3Qr9yU&feature=related

I have mixed feelings about the covering up of Muslim women. On one hand I couldn´t care less what one chooses to wear and for whatever reason (if it´s a choice indeed, for many women it´s not, and that´s something I´d have a problem with). What I don´t buy into is the whole notion that it is the women´s fault if men have sexual thoughts about them. If men have a problem looking at women, then maybe they are the ones that should not be looking instead of forcing women to cover up like that. I don´t get what is immodest about hair or neck or arms. And even if, for some reason, some men were getting wild beyond the ability to self-restrain while getting a peek of some hair, wouldn´t exposure to said hair make the hair loose their sexual luster after a while? Isn´t it the forbidden fruit that´s the temptation? If anything, I think that the covering is making the women more of sexual objects, not less. But that´s just my opinion. Obviously, I don´t know enough about Islam to appreciate the whole cultural and religious significance of hiding behind scarfs and burkas, it just seems to me another chauvinistic way to control women.

+10000000000000

So this is not a Burka?  Full length to the floor completely covered apart from the eyes.  I have been misled in that case

I the the "thing" that Afgan women wore was a Chadri, which is a different shape the photo here.  And yes the whole thing covers from head to toe with a net for vision.

I am aware that some women in Saudia Arabia wear them and they did in Kuwait in the Kuwait war, as I had a friend who lived there for a time and she told me women were driving wearing these things.

In fact I have had a look on the internet and the photos for both garments are the same, so how do you tell difference?

fantastic post... couldnt agree with you more

According to some of the ladies here at school who wear these things - that is a picture of a Burka.   But of course there could be regional differences in what they are called.

That picture is a niqab but actually the niqab is only this part. It´s put over the regular hijab and usually has two layers to cover the eyes, though most niqabis pin the layers in the back. There´s a picture here which illustrates it quite well.

It must be a regional naming difference then.......

 Crikey how confusing!! 

 It is, isn´t it.... ?  I spoke with some nationals from the UAE who called the covering for women Burqa. Chador in Anglicized for çadýr, which means tent in Turkish.

Interestingly, the Roma call their traditional long skirts chador too. I have noticed the coverings of some groups of Muslim women becoming more covered and restricitive in the last 20 or so years. The women in the Gulf used to wear a much less massive niqab than they do now.

For what it´s worth, clothing has to be functional. If you can´t see, can´t walk without tripping on your cloths, it´s pretty useless. The Afghan burqa has a grill over the eyes. I tried one on and found it almost impossible to walk in. It gave me tunnel vision and that grill really hurt my eyes. In some other places they have a face covering with a head piece that has a drop down screen/veil that is somewhat sheer. It has two layers, so one can drop down both or only one, or none.

A photo .....here and here is an interesting photo of a woman in a burqa

 Are the pale blue ones for widows in Afganistan?

It would kind of cover my wobbly bits ...  ... no more bad hair day ... maybe I´ll need to reconsider my position on the topic.

 = niqab

Maybe the terms just got confused because it´s hard for non-Muslims to tell them apart (which is understandable).

Alameda I´m curious about the burqa, since you have tried it. I´ve never seen one up close, but it looks kind of like a helmet..? Or it´s just the way it´s tied together?

Now I know tons of converts, and those who have chosen to cover their face all use niqab (usually either black or white) which is why I think the burqa is more of a cultural or political choice. Who knows, maybe the Afghans just like to make women´s life harder...

I even know niqabis who drive, which must be impossible for women in burqas.

 I´ve tried and have a few different "styles" as I was doing research on them. The Afghani burqa with the grid was very difficult for me to see out of. However, I have a lady friend who is from Afghanistan, she told me she loves it and has no problem seeing out of it. It must be in how you learn how to move in it. I found if I sewed a little tie in so as to keep it from execess movement, it was easier to see out of when it was secured in place. Still, I found it hard to breath in it. You know, you are breathing your own breath.  

A interesting side bar to this is I did a lecture where I had samples for people to try on. It was interesting seeing how different aspects of the wearers personalities came out when they put the burqa on. I saw a whole different dimension to their personalities that previously was hidden.

I knew an American woman who was in Afghanistan and decided to get a real burqa to wear.  Without a burqa people thought she was a Afghani woman dressing in Western cloths, but when she put the burqa on people stopped from long distances and pointed and laughed at her trying to "pass". It was obvious to them she was not Afghanistani woman when she was wearing the burqa. The garment is made out of rayon. They say it´s silk, but it´s actually rayon. I know because I tested the fabric for fiber content.

Now as to the niqab, there are several pieces to them. The most simple is a simple band with a veil attached to it. The veil sometimes has a piece in the center between the eyes to hold it up. The sides of the veil are attached on the side of the band. The older ones were tied in the back, the new ones use velcro to attach in the back. A long scarf is worn over that. The older ones were nice cotton that stayed in place quite nicely. They are now making new ones out of polyester....ugh. They get hot and don´t stay in place.

Lanes Modern Egyptians written in the early 1800s has some nice illustrations. Look at pages starting on 47 to 51 for detailed drawings as to how things were assembled.

 Hmm, I realized I didn´t answer your question as to how the Afghan burqa is put together. There is a little hat to which a lower pleated curtain is sewn. In the front is a long piece with the grid in the appropriate place. The fabric below the grid has embroidery on it. In fact the grid is a sort of hem stitched rectangle.

Here are some nice photos that show the parts.....burqa front, burqa back  Blue is just a popular color now. Some years ago it was olive green.

How interesting ... especially the bit about the different personalities coming out. I would be interested to learn more about that if you care to post it.

I´ve never actually tried one on but had an opportunity to see one while in college when one of my peers went to Afghanistan and brought one back. She was trying to convinvce the rest of the class how comfortable and desirable it actually is to wear it over there because of the amount of sand in the air. From what you´re describing, I doubt that would be the case. And you´re right about the fabric, it didn´t seem to be very breathable.

 Yeah it´s strange but true The women who wear full body and face cover can even recognize eachother from a distance, and I often hear about how well they can communicate on open street, not being able to see face expressions etc., and even talk of who carries their clothes well, is charismatic in it and so forth.

I got a niqab headpiece from a friend who wears it on a regular basis, I guess it´s the old kind and with no string between the eyes, and it´s not uncomfortable at all (unless you have an itch ). I actually used it along with an abaya once I went to see my inlaws, but they thought I had gone out of my mind because it was extreme in their eyes. They are Shafi´i so I wanted to show them how women are supposed to dress according to that fiqh but they didn´t believe me anyway.

There´s so many "opinions" of correct islamic clothes...

 I said for me it wasn´t comfortable. My Afghanistan lady friend found it a preferable way to dress. I think it´s an analogy would be a person trying on high heel shoes for the first time. Even a small heel could be problematic for one who was not used to any type of heel.

The more comfortable way to keep sand and debris out of one´s eyes is to wear the type of head covering that is made out of black gauzy cotton. It comes about a meter wide and at least 2 or 3 meters long. It is folded with about 1/3 a meter in half lenghtwise. The item is put on the head off center and draped around the head. If sand or debris is imminent, you just draw down some of the fold over your face. It´s gauzy, so you can see clearly out of it. Black is the best to see out of. White or a light color is hard to see through.

FWIW when I was in the Sahara, nobody was without a covering. They even wore heavy goggles. The sand was like wind born sandpaper. You definitly have to use something to keep it off of you.

 The problem with the niqab is that your eyes are really highlighted. Where and how you use your eyes becomes visible. A lady friend of mine who tried one of mine on said , "oh this is awful, people can see where you are looking!" Something to think about, hmmm?

I saw prostitutes who were doing a brisk business in their niqabs......it was how they used their eyes.......

What is the problem with having highlighted eyes???

Isn´t that exactly the reason why people wear eyeliner, mascara and eyeshadow???

 Muslim women don´t wear makeup outside of their home. Otherwise you are right

...................Some wear make up in, and out of the house, under hijab, and without hijab, some drink wine, others do not drink wine, some have boyfriends, some do not. There are even some Muslim prostitutes.....but they are still Muslim.....maybe they are not accepted as good Muslims, but one can´t say, and should not ever say they are not Muslim.

Sometimes the hijab is worn out of sanctimonious vanity. Superficial observation rarely results in comprehension of the deep reality of a situation.

I guess it´s up to the invidual but loads of scholars agree that one who ignores salah completely is not a Muslim.

Anyway there is a big difference between technically belonging to a religion and following it

What about muslim men???

Back to Roswitha´s original post, and the girl and an American univeristy. Ok some people do stare at others in a negative view - I personally know people that do, but what about others that stare for other reasons? Well not stare, but take a quick glance?

Such as somewhere that is really open with huge varieties of fashion such as Manhattan, New York, or Camden Town in London. There would always be someone with such a different style of dress code than yours that would make you look over and think "oooh I like that!" or "wow I love his hair!" etc.

What if that view can be stretched upon cultural styles, such as Muslim women, If i were to glance at someone wearing a hijab etc I wouldn´t be doing so out of rudeness but more out of respect or curiosity.

I agree that there are bad people in the world who look at people just do judge them, but what we musn´t forget is that there are good people too.

I go to a cafe now and then with a friend of mine, and we "people watch". Just curiously looking at people, there fashion, their culture, how they are going about their daily lives etc.

So maybe people shouldn´t be so paranoid that people are looking at you in a bad way, because they could always be looking at you in a good way.

After all, isn´t it how fashion comes along? One person starts it off and another copies because they got inspiration from the original style?

All in all, there is people out there with judgemental thoughts but there is also people out there with thoughts of curiosity too

 Are you kidding me?

The most adorned, heaviest make up and over the top jewellery I ever see is always on muslim women.  I always think it kind of defeats the object of wearing the headscarf in the first place

People are of course free to ignore rules of their religion, be it ignoring the reason for wearing a headscarf or by drinking alcohol and that is fine.  We see it here all the time... very few manage to fast through ramadan, remain a virgin until marriage or avoid alcohol but mention eating pork and they look aghast!!! 

Anyway, as with all religions, just don´t preach your religion to me, or suddenly become VERY religious when it suits you

how about christians` having sex before marriage? isn`t it it the same thing? christianity clearly forbids it.

 Yes of course - that is why I said "religion" and not "islam".  However, I must admit Christians don´t preach to me as often as muslims, because I know very very few practising Christians   Being "Christian" is almost like a dirty word here... I know few people who would admit they are religious.

The point is, that you are FREE of course to ignore your religious rules, but dont use your religion when it suits you

the rate of church attencance is extremely in America especially in the south. surprisingly, the highest rate of teenage pregnancy is also in the southern states.

 Well I don´t speak for the US Tam, I was talking about the UK

Yes, I have heard and seen about those lovely church going bed Amerikans and I agree they are hypocrites too.... that is why I used the word "religion" and not "Islam"... but you keep ignoring that fact

it was just an ancdote. why are you getting angry?

 Angry? I was smiling?  

Why are you trying to start an argument with me?  Does it turn you on?

are you still under the influence of flu?

 Nope!  Back at work and fighting fit and ready to take all that you sling at me

it`s so cool that some employers pay their workers for doing nothing

 I am paid for the quality of my work, not the quantity.  If I had a brain like yours of course, I would have to work in a factory and only take small breaks.  However, I am able to sit in this nice warm office and drink coffee and talk to wonderful people like you instead

ok I`m a loser. thanks for reminding me

 stop defending christians and US its so obvious that tami (&CO) keeps catching you on it.

 i know, her last post was disgusting

 Me?  Defend Christians?

I would sooner eat one of my chilli chocolates

and what is more exciting is femme seems to be defending me!

 Femme is too clever (even for you)

She was being sarcastic...

you`re so clever AE, even after that brain surgery

 thank you canim and you wanted to give some little people an honor to be my enemy

 yes, she should stop implanting silicon brains but she doesnt understand that.

 Awww thank you canim.  What a great new year... admirers like you and BSB are coming here and finally voicing their true feelings about me

 oh silly you you believe him? they are trained dudus

 Sweeping statement. Where did you get your statistics to conclude it is the majority?

Seems you are riding your atheist high horse again. . . clip clop clip clop (that´s the sound from your mouth, not your hooves btw   )

 I speak as I find peacetrain.  If someone in the UK says they are religious, people automatically avoid them socially or assume they are a geek

Its a fact... maybe nobody had the heart to tell you yet!

Of course you could disagree, but I think you will find that the figures from the Church of England back up my comment about the English and religion..

 You use this word a lot.  Do you work for the Isle of Wight Tourist Information Board?

 I´m surprised you manage to get any done

 Sorry PT, I find it fun to argue with Tam, but not with you.  No offence, but I really can´t be bothered to reply

 But your boss is missing out on potential millions  . . . if only you would harness both quality and quantity.  Or of course if it´s the quality, not the quantity he desires, then he could cut your hours.

why? does it turn you on?

Spare post... for making notes

OMG I posted that THREE TIMES!!!

 Why is working in a factory a job for losers?  Don´t take it as a put down

 Becoming a brunette is far cheaper and less complicated

+1

I agree on that..I have always respected those type of people , I mean the workers or people from working class, actually 

AE calls herself a socialist! can you believe that

does she? I have never seen it anywhere!!

 my quote that you replied to was regarding this comment of yours:

 We see it here all the time... very few manage to fast through ramadan, remain a virgin until marriage or avoid alcohol but mention eating pork and they look aghast!!! 

see, I will reveal all your secrets AE!

 Well there is your fun and then there is my fun

 i know some people working in factories, admirable people, but the majority gets into a mass, those who dont care for education and every second of their words begins with F...

for them i find no admiration.

I think my love of working class is not related to how they speak or  how they behave.

They are the REAL producers..

 There is no such "working class" anymore

We are all working class...

 in here you are showing a deep disrespect towards the "class"

That is a correct statement  but, only for developed countries..

And how am I doing that? eh?

 gosh, i keep catching you on your mistakes, where you give no a deeper thought.

so you dont care for how they speak, how they behave, but care that they are robots.

 hairy, use your silicon brains.

who cleans their toilets in those developped countries? It`s Mexicans in America and Turks in Europe. If everybody is working class, what are these people?

 What I am saying is that there are few people who don´t work.  The days of the class system are over.  People have equal opportunity whatever their family background.  People are all merging into what used to be the "middle class".

Mexicans and Turks?  Where do you get this idea from?  Most Turks that I know open Kebab shops   I think you will find that the reason some immigrants choose more menial jobs is when they have language problems.

 I think you are confusing the words "socialist" and "socialite" . . . read in the context of TC, this is quite funny (quote is from "whistle stop" wiki of course)

A socialite is a person who is known to be a part of fashionable high society because of his or her regular participation in social activities and fondness for spending a significant amount of time entertaining and being entertained. Some socialites may choose to use their social skills and connections to promote and raise funds for various charitable or philanthropic activities. Socialites are usually in possession of considerable wealth, whether gained by inheritance or otherwise, that can sustain their steady attendance at social functions.

 you have such a thick complex! what is wrong in cleaning toilets?

if you are smart enough you should manage someone else to clean your toilet.

mexicans dont belong to smart nations (they dont invent anything), the same goes to other nations. and if you manage to live on cleaning the toilets, why not? thats also a job. or do you want to humiliate those who do such jobs?

 Of course there are those who believe it is a mistake to educate the mass. 

 Doudie?  Is that you?

I think ´respect to working class´ and the working class in developed countries, service sector replacing the Real production in those countries  etc as a scope is quite large...

It should be discussed  as in its own context..Not as ´what about the toilet cleaners?´

 I agree

 Would that be "quality" working class or "quantity" working class

 i ignore this post. because you again posted without a prior thought. good bye, dont post reply.

My "quality" and "quantity" comments were a joke to Tam.  I see the New Year has not seen a change in your obsession with posting about me.

Ah

Are we falling apart now? 

awww

 She said "dont post reply"?

It sounded like a ´great, big farewell´ to me..  is it the end of love affair between me and femme?

 I always thought her heart belonged to Sui...well her ambition to be first lady anyway

 you never really loved me anyway, you always were after blondes

GOODBYE!

 I think Tam is free Femme.  Ok he is young.... but much less hairy

... and imagine the interesting "pillow talk" you could both have

well..you are making a mistake here

see this:

They say gentlemen prefer blondes and their life is much more cheerful. But in things concerning work and love, fair-haired girls concede to those, whose hair are much darker.

Recent researches show that brunettes earn much more than blondes. And in love life they are also luckier - polls show that brunettes have 10 % bigger success they receive from opposite sex.

I was never serious with blondes and you very well know it !!!!!

 tam is in a different category, the category of enemies.

Don´t worry, our government is slowly but surely rectifying that one

I agree, in general, life is better for many and there is the "Education for All" ethos but the divide is made in more subtle ways nowadays.  The children that live in the large town where I work don´t have the same high school educational opportunities as the children in the small town where I live and I´m not only talking about the grammar school system.  In the large town I´m talking about, opportunities are better if you can get into a faith school or have the money to send your children to a private school. 

I wonder what kind of message this gives to those children who don´t have the wider choice.  It can´t do much for their self esteem.  Of course there are those who are determined enough to make it, whatever life throws at them but there are many children leaving school with little to show for it and it´s not all their fault.  It´s the adults that cause the problems in the first instance.

Anyway, I would say class is as much about one´s political view or mindset as it is about how much money one has or whether or not someone has a job. 

We all have to go to the loo . . . I see your point

Femme and me?

I definitely agree!

 In that case, this is unfair

aren`t you fake blonde anyway?

 Actually no!  I have sometimes had lighter bits but in, but mostly it is darker in the winter and lighter in the summer when the sun lightens it. 

Why do all Turks assume blondes are fake?  

 dont get scared so easy, i have no interest in those turks with less hair cheer up. you are free.

AE, thank you for your offer, this boy seems to be very unexperienced to face such laides like me. therefore take him back to your school and train him well before selling him out to the world of adults.

 do they?

 Sorry.... I realise it was a bit of a long shot to try you out with a rookie. 

A job is a means to an end I guess.  I gave up a great job at the age of 32 and spent 4 years at  University.  I was a single parent with a 3 year old child and I had to work as well as study.  I did several jobs, cleaning, laundry in a care home and shop work.  People do what they have to do to get by and if they really want something they will turn their hand to any work they can get. 

Having said all of that, I consider myself lucky that my choices are wider than those of others.

 Yeah... I remember Ramayan saying such things too... I think he said it was because in Istanbul many Turkish women bleach their hair

but there are even worse prejudices about blondes. like their being dumb

 Actually, I was simply fulfilling item 1 on my New Year´s resolution list . 

 I agree with you on this one.  I have no hesitatation in doing any kind of work if I need to.  I have done all kinds of cleaning jobs and factory work to earn extra cash. 

 Yes

Do you think I am dumb Tam?

 I think that says more about the prejudice of others, not the women themselves.

 and this post makes you dumb, young turk!

I think you`re fake blonde

 why? do turkish women want to be considered dumb by turks?

 wow, that was a smart move, at last!

who is Ramayan?

 My work here is done

 TheH´s post (and Tam´s comment about blondes) has some grounding... but it is very old fashioned thinking.

Decades ago, any woman who dyed her hair was considered promiscuous and cheap.  The kind of "blonde" that got noticed was the bleached peroxide type.  In that sense, maybe it was true that men would have fun with such a girl, but marry a more "innocent" girl.  The idea that blondes were dumb, also springs from this kind of era, where the kind of girl who wanted to look like 40s/50s film star thought that appearence was far more important than intelligence.

However, these days of course, you are not judged if you dye your hair.  Sadly, old ways of thinking (and men´s prejudices) take much longer to change

 A wonderful Turkish ex-member

sounds like a typical dudu

 Hahaha jealous darling?

should I be jealous?

 Only you can answer that

ok I don`t want to know what want on between you two!

 Awww canim don´t worry ... I know how jealous you can get

 Well then they´re just muslims by culture... probably not so much down with following it  Allah bilir.

Agreed - and a much missed ex-member

 All this "blondes have more fun" is a fallicous notion - being a natural brunette, I have had my fair share of fun (and still am)   I can never understand why anyone with nice brunette hair would want to dye it blond!   I never envied those girls, who always seemed a bit superficial, of their dyed blonde hair!    

 I agree.  Actually I prefer brunette hair...it is richer looking, shinier and looks nicer with most colour clothes.  I dyed my hair dark brown once... but unfortunately it looked disgusting on me and made my skin look so pale

 why do you often write illogic things lately?

blondes can go with any colour.

its us dark hair beings are limitted to black and red.

+1

I dyed my hair brown in January last year and I looked as if I was down with aenemia I´m chalk-pale by nature so brown hair is not for me. Neither is red unfortunately so I have to stick by blondes

 I tried a blonde wig once and looked completely incipid!  My skin is the wrong colour too! 

 I think he is still a member. He came back briefly a few months ago and amazingly his name is still on the active users list after all this time.

 The same goes for me, a few years ago I had my hair dyed into some kind of dark blonde, and I looked horrible, all my facial features disappeared and I looked much older and it did not suit my skin at all, and I looked like a sl*t to say the truth.

I think everyone should stick to their natural hair color. Now, there are just some red extensions in my hair.

 This is not very true. In fact, it´s not on "muslim" women but rather on middle-eastern or asian (indian) women, because it´s rather a cultural thing. In a lot of arab countries christian women do the same heavy make-up. BTW russian women make quite heavy make-up too compared to west european women.  

 what a pathetic post now! a pity and poor attempt to cover the truth said about muslimahs. are you saying that aenigma is lying?

indian women, cultural thing! misery!

russian women! what does russian women have to do with religion? are they wearing a make up against their religion? are they trying to be hypocrite like the women mentioned in a previous post?

I actually prefer red or green or blue hair - or even better, all of them at the same time!!!