http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/article2338728.ece

batman and diyarbakir... turkey or "kurdistan" as they call?

Until the Turkish government does acknowledge an independent ´Kurdistan´ (which they do NOT!) Batman, Diyabakir and other places in that area are still Turkey, whether you like it or not.

so are they also turks, trudy? how fascist you`re! how dare you call kurds turks? they can be called Turks only when they kill their daughters, right?

 Nope. Unlike you I don´t think in little boxes. For me all citizens of Turkey are Turks plus maybe a member of another group, like all citizens of my country for me are Dutch. Even you I would consider Dutch from the moment you gained citizenship.  

then why don`t your politicians stop calling the Turks in the southeast "Kurds" if they are Turks?

and why do you criticize the muslims in your country saying "they don`t integrate"? aren`t they Dutch? why do you call them muslims, as if they are not Dutch like you?

 I don´t know. I am not ´your politicians´.

This big difference, dearest Tami, is that Kurds occupied that land when Turkey was "created".  Unlike muslims in Holland

Like it or not, they are your native people

Kurds have invaded all the Turkish cities, AE! do you have anything to say about that?

 Invaded?

They are your fellow countrymen

Perhaps if you had treated them as such, they would not now have terrorist groups among them

Yes, they are Dutch to me but unfortunately not to themselves. Ask a person whose greatgrandfather was an immigrant what s/he is and 98% they´ll say ´I´m Turk, Moroccon, ... ´. So they place themselves outside local/national society. 

Your second line is hilarious. Since when is ´Muslim´ an etnicity or a race? I call them Muslims for their religion, not for their color of skin/eyes/hair or their taste of food/clothing/music. The same I do for Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindoes and even Pastafarians.  

(Why do I bother anyway to explain my view to you? You won´t listen anyhow.)

they are not my fellow anything.

there were not any Kurds in the western Turkish cities 50 years ago. what should I call it if not invasion? and if it`s not invasion, why do you call the muslims in your country invaders?

 Invaded? Like they are Marsians? OMG, Tami, you´re unbelieveble.... (in more than one meaning!)

 They may have not been in your cities, but they were your fellow countrymen 50 years ago and remain so

yes Trudy, likewise Kurds are Turks to me but not to themselves! ask any Kurd in Turkey what he is, and he will say Im a Kurd!

so it`s ok to use that word for muslims but not for kurds?

What a confusion! A Kurd is also a Turk if he has Turkish citizenship, right? If western media refer to Kurds they mean it as an ethnical group, rather than members of separate nation, degil mi? Then Muslims are Muslims regardless of their ethnicity or citizenship so even if they´re Polish, Dutch or Turkish, they´re Muslims, right? Sorry, I can´t understand what you´re arguing about...

It´s kind of hard to comment if first we´re told that Kurds are Turks first of all (hence the pledge etc) and should not have any objections to being discrete about their ethnicity. Then any kind of violence in the eastern region is immediately recognised as Kurdish action. If Kurds immigrate westwards towards cities (hich is quite logical as cities always offer best prospects of employment) they´re called invaders. Since when does migrating within one country called invasion?

Would it be a solution, tami, if Kurds abandoned their ethnical heritage, started considering themselves Turks and nothing bu Turks, and at the same time stayed in their villages in the east peacefully and never wanted to go out?

 Western media calls them as kurds. but if they do something bad in europe, suddenly they become turk on the news papersDD

This sounds like Turkish paranoia.  The reason the word "kurds" appears a lot in western media is because of PKK activities.  This is mostly the only time that Turkey hits the headlines!  By the very nature of the PKK party, they are OF COURSE referred to as Kurds as they are the Kurdistan Workers Party!!! 

"If they do something bad in europe, suddenly they become Turk"???? So being a terrorist organisation is not "bad"?

If anything is in the media about Turkey generally then they are OF COURSE referred to as Turks.  

 we see what western countries think about kurdish issue from maps. that shows turkey divided into 2 parts.

oh sure, this map is also just Turkish paranoia.

 sure we are not normal

we are paranoiac...

 What is the source of your map?  Where has it come from?  I am interested because I am quite sure this is not an ordinary map, but that you googled "Kurdistan" and found this!!!  I could google "Ottoman Empire" and find a map of that too!  There is no region or country officially called "Kurdistan" and therefore does not appear on standard geographical maps.

Here´s the link

http://schema-root.org/region/middle_east/kurdistan/

Apparently it´s an area inhabited mainly by Kurds, not a political country or a great plan to conquer Turkey

 Thanks DD...it was as I suspected then

bir þey deðil

Ummmm....actually if you read the text you might get a little different idea, and have some understanding why some people are nervous:

" Kurdistan is an area in the Middle East, inhabited mainly by the Kurds. Kurdistan covers parts of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Georgia and Syria. The borders of Kurdistan are hard to define, as none of the states in question acknowledge Kurdistan as a demographic or geographical region. There is a province of Kurdistan in Iran.

Before World War I, most Kurds lived within the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Allies created several countries within its former boundaries. Originally Kurdistan, along with Armenia was to be one of them, according to the Treaty of S�vres. However, the reconquest of these areas by Kemal Atat�rk and other pressing issues caused the Allies to accept the renegotiated Treaty of Lausanne, returning this territory to Turkey. Other Kurdish areas were assigned to the new states of Iraq and Syria under both treaties. These boundaries were drawn with more concern for the division of oil resources and influence between different colonial powers and for rewarding pro-Allied Arab leaders than for ethnic distributions.

Since then, Kurds have been divided between several states, in each of which they are minorities. Many Kurds have campaigned for independence or autonomy since then, but there has been no support by any of the regional governments or by outside powers for changes in regional boundaries. A sizeable Kurdish diaspora exists in Western Europe that participates in agitation for Kurdish issues, but most of the governments in the Middle East have historically banned open Kurdish activism."

That in conjunction with:

Plans for Redrawing the Middle East: The Project for a “New Middle East”

"The Turkish Protest at NATO’s Military College in Rome

Lieutenant-Colonel Ralph Peters’ map of the “New Middle East” has sparked angry reactions in Turkey. According to Turkish press releases on September 15, 2006 the map of the “New Middle East” was displayed in NATO’s Military College in Rome, Italy. It was additionally reported that Turkish officers were immediately outraged by the presentation of a portioned and segmented Turkey.8 The map received some form of approval from the U.S. National War Academy before it was unveiled in front of NATO officers in Rome."

map here

Thanks Alameda!

Is this what you suspected, Ms. Aenigma?

yes it`s all about Turkish paranoia.

I think the best way to understand if it is paranoia or not, YOU draw a map showing UK being divided and scotland and welsh carved up, then see the reaction of brits..

 Well I was going to use that analogy too, but having seen Alameda and Tami´s post I actually agree with them in a way.  Any regional borders in our country were decided by us - not by American military....

it`s not just someone who`s drawn that map, its Nato!and I cant even imagine how England would react if Nato drew a map showing the lands of england as the property of Free Ireland.

 Yeah I agree with you - I didn´t know about this, so retract my original comments

This map has been circulating for a few years now

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=36919

The U.S. State Department assured Ankara that the map did not reflect the official American view, and denounced it as unacceptable.

He was  prepared by a retired soldier..and US has already apologized for it.

I dont think we should take it seriously and show it as a proof for our paranoia which dates back  way before that map.

Phew! what a relief!

Going back to the original topic:

You have dishonoured your family, please kill yourself

"honour killings" in Turkey have reached record levels. According to government figures, there are more than 200 a year – half of all the murders committed in the country. Now, in a sinister twist, comes the emergence of "honour suicides". The growing phenomenon has been linked to reforms to Turkey´s penal code in 2005. That introduced mandatory life sentences for honour killers, whereas in the past, killers could receive a reduced sentence claiming provocation. Soon after the law was passed, the numbers of female suicides started to rocket.

..

Killing for Honour will be shown on Channel 4 tonight at 7.35pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...red-your-family-please-kill-yourself-1655373.html

 This is just sad and outrageous!  There just doesn´t seem to be an easy solution.  Turkey´s Kurdish issues are very closely tied to this issue....so unfortunately for the women....they will have to let the men fight before humanity can take a step forward.

suicide, honour kilings and other middle age events are only seen among kurdish ppl, especially Diyarbakýr, batman ....

 it s strange that those ppl shout and choose terrorism for human right.

and it s really funny, kurdish politicians talk about women rights in their politics all the time.

 Well, I am not sure of the prevelance of honor killings in Turkey amoung Turks V. Kurds (honestly I don´t know), but it seems to happen all over the world and not just Turkey.   Besides, pawning it off as a "Kurdish" problem is kind of irresponsible.  This is occuring in your country Jan, to citizens of Turkey.  It shouldn´t matter that they are Kurdish.

As a women, it is hard to sit back and watch this issue go on and on as men sit back and talk/fight/kill but make absolutely no progress in improving this situation for so many women.  Women have no power in these situations/part of the world and it is a helpless feeling for those of us who can only sit back and read these horrible articles!

 Come on!!!

when I called kurdish ppl turkish citizen, they called me racist on this site

I dont know how to call them.

but this is a reallity that these events only seen in this region.

honour killings that happens in big cities are also come from tis region.

 Well, actually, I wasn´t trying to disagree with you. 

It does seem to happen more in Eastern Turkey than in ohter parts of the country but I don´t know any statistics.  It is sad that it happens anywhere...I just find it very heart breaking in general. 

Janis, it´s not the fact that you called them Turkish citizens that caused that label. It´s the fact that you wanted them to forget their ethnicity and consider themselves Turks (not as citizenship but ethnic group). We all argued that they should have the right to celebrate their ethnicity while being Turkish citizens with full rights. Your government should first make them feel part of Turkey instead of making them "Turkishised" by force, by banning their language, holidays etc.

Also I think that there should be a national campaign against honour killings carried out not only by religious institutions but also religious leaders. And the perpetrators should be severely punished.

 I dont have any problem with kurdish ppl, as I told many times I have many kurdish friends.

I m just against PKK supporters. some ppl try to show me different here.

of course honour killings are really horrible. this can be solve with education

 Point taken.  I think everyone can agree here that any type of terrorism/honor killings and suicides are just inexcuseable.   But I think we, as humans, have a responsibility to address the root causes of them....no matter who/where they come from.

 good,

This is so unbelievabe this day and age. Surely the government could have educated people over the past years. Even the remotest villages have access to the media, and this has been going on for so long that changing Turkey´s penal code alone was not enough to change the way of thinking.

I for one will be watching with interest the programe on channel 4 tonight.

Exactly.....it´s been going on a looooong time.

Since almost the begining of our republic..

In fact we spent our entire life with that paranoia..

 Better being paranoid than sorry, wouldnt you say ?!

Specially with the current events we have in the area .

Only if Saddam was a little bit paranoid !

I agree with the current events part..That paranoia gave us 40 to 70 thousand deads for example..

They are saying that 17.000 gone missing in the south east and they are looking for their remains in acid wells..

In fact almost more than 1/3 of our budget went away that way..

All those deads are related to the paranoia we are talking about here..

Saddam was a great paranoid as well.. That was the reason why he killed many of his own citizens.. 

 Yes, since the beginning of the Republic of Turkey (the sucessor to the Ottoman Empire)...after loosing most of the Ottoman lands........after the rejection of the Treaty of Sevres

Old Ottoman lands are now in turmoil.....hmmmm.....Palestine....Iraq...Lebanon.....Syria....and....and....

 Ãf he was a little bit paranoid as you said, he wouldnt have believed that embassador !

Dont mix things handsom, none defend what Sadam did to those people, but also there is no excuse to interfear in any country´s affair.

Like it or not, we live in a very special area, and that is not something new

Ýt has been same through the years....read history, it goes that far  !

So if we dont learn anything after all from what we have been through and being through, we should deserve what we would get !

Ýts understandable if we have been called like that ´paranoid ´ by who were/are not in our shoes, but actually you ought to know better !

You know the history of the area well i assume, and you can read what is happening around.

I think you missed the entire point completely.

Nobody is calling us as paranoid from outside.  Some of the insiders (including me) calling us. 

Paranoia is one of the necessary elements of supressing people..

As an "outsider" I agree that paranoia is a necessary element to supressing people.  However, I would certainly be a little angry and warey myself if such a map was being bandied about about my country, showing it carved up to accommodate a "new" country!

However old this map is, whatever the excuse for it, the fact is that it is still being shown and "considered" - so let´s allow the Turks a little justified paranoia on this occasion shall "we"?

Honour killings in the UK have hit record levels too - over 100 KNOWN incidents last year.This NOT a Turkish problem, it is a cultural one which affects all countries now.

We should be blaming the cultures which perpetuate these vile and outdated practices.  We should also blame those people who protect such cultures, describe them as quaint and pure and consider them sacrosanct (not mentioning any names here).

A culture which puts "family name" before the life of your child or sibling is inhuman and disgusting and such "culture" or "tradition" should never be defended.

like your ergenekon paranoia?

I am not sure if you are reading Ergenekon case clearly.

It is very much related to missing 17.000 kurds whom they are looking for in acid wells now...

Missing 17.000 did not bother you but finding the killers are  bothering you?

so are the killers Ilhan Selcuk and Mustafa Balbay?

Anybody who knows how to use photoshop can draw a map. This one happens to be coming from an ex USA army personell.

It is just annoying.. 

But being just annoyed is much different that showing this map for as a proof of our chronical xenophobia and hating of foreigners..

Then comes talking about Kurdish rights is supressed with ´ah they are just trying to devide us´; comes butchering christians in malatya; comes sending 17.000 people into acid wells.

Once people believe their  paranioa is a THE real thing, they easily justify what they are doing..

if you ask the killer of H dink, he will say to you that he has done it because he was simply protecting the country. From whom? from foreigners. why? because they want to devide us..

The level of democracy we have now in Turkey is much related to this paranoia..

I am not sure you are able to understand that case..

You are very good at blaming your own country, which is to be commended, but you could easily be accused of wearing rose tinted glasses about the UK.  Don´t you believe their is paranoia and xenophobia in the UK?  What about the "fear" of muslims, the fact that people refuse to fly on a plane with anyone who looks remotely middle-eastern?

You only have to look at UK history (and present!) to know that we were fed paranoia to justify our actions.

Case in point:

"There are weapons of mass distruction in Iraq": George Bush

Is this not a clear example of citizens being fed lies to increase paranoia?

I am leaving the ´blaming the uk for the paranoia you mentioned´ to Brits..

 Don´t worry, the Daily Mail does a splendid job of creating paranoia in the UK........... especially for the Brits