Ý was planning to give my 2 pennies in short after reading the thread overall, i should have known better, visiting TLC always takes more time than expected lol

Ok overall i agree with some here and disagree with some.

Ý agree with Jan on somethings and also agree with cat at another things.

Of course there are culture differnces, and what is acceptable to some, not acceptable to others

What can be seen as freedom of speech to some, can be seen as crossing the lines to others with degrees.

What can be seen by some as crap and they are glad they have changed their concept about it, can be seen by others as a respectable concepts and they do NOT want to change it to something else.

They are convinced by what they believe and dont want to change it

As you may see that is wrong and should be changed, they also see what you believe is wrong too.

Judging this as crap actually isnt a right of anyone at all

As it is not my right to judge those who have change in their concepts or those who have another concept to begin with.

Taking that thread of helicopter crash as an example.

A man died, and Sui wanted to share his feelings here with us, sad and worried ´before his death confirmed´ so first thing to say...well he deserved, he was such a bad guy ?!

By any mean is this acceptable ?!

To us..nope

Debate being carried away, and some try to make that clear that we should respect the dead, the man blood wasnt even dried yet !

So would the answer be that is a stupid tradition to respect the dead and its crap ?!

Ý dont think so !

We have differences in culture and we are all aware of that...as you demand others to have a space of freedom in the speech and to differentiate between criticism and expression one opinion and insults

Would it be that hard to respect also the concepts, traditions  of others too ?!

Somethings you see like freedom of speech in other culture its crossing the lines, exactly at in that thread

Respecting the dead!

Our traditions maybe strange to some of you, some dont understand, some dont want to understand, other think its nonsense and they are happy they dont believe in them any more but its not like that to us

Ýf we REALLY dont believe in them we wouldnt demanding to respect them, mutual respect.

Numbers of Turks and Easterns here are not much, not as same as Westerns, so their voices are not as stronger as Westerns too, but that doesnt mean what they believe and think is wrong and what Westerns believe and think is right.

Ým sorry that i had to use those 2 words which cause lots of arguments before but the case is culture differences

Like it or not, we have it, not only here at TLC but in the outside world too.

Hopefully we can sort our things here at TLC and reach some sort of understanding between us.

Ok that is more than 2 pennies...and im running out of time, see you guys !

Like it or not, we have it, not only here at TLC but in the outside world too.

Hopefully we can sort our things here at TLC and reach some sort of understanding between us.

yes u are right. it didnt finish terrorism. guess why?

coz we couldnt reach their camps. we were about to finish it all but USA warned turkey. this movements towards camps suddenly stopped, everybody suprised. Because PKK is a weapon of USA against turkey.  they didnt want turkey finish it coz whenever turkey didnt allow USA army to use our lands, terrorists attacks started. I dont believe their terrorism will finish if turkey do everything what kurdish ppl want.

Adana, aren´t you exaggerating here? How do you want to compare which nation´s history was worse or which nation was more heroic? Taken that The Netherlads are way smaller than Poland what´s your plan? To use percentages? each nation has been through wars, each had to protect its boundaries, each has moments of glory and moments of failure.

As for the anthem, it´s not the anthem that´s holy. You are free to criticise it. Some people are proud of what it represents, the history behind it but it´s not like the country is based ON the song. You may mock it, come up with silly lyrics and still feel confident about where you come from. Just think, all those who died, died so that you could live a happy life without facing a trial for making fun of the anthem. They died so that you could live in a better, freer country. No song is going to change it. You mentioned Bogurodzica - it is surely a religious song, does it mean I have to respect a song although I am an atheist? Should I consider it a representation of my ideas, a definition of who I am? I don´t think so. Surely I appreciate its historical value in linguistic terms but that´s it. Why do people choose to respect symbols over other people?

There are no universal national values, for the simple reason that nation is made up of PEOPLE and people have their own ideas, beliefs and subjective perception of the world. That´s why we should be free to express our opinions about everything and everyone. Any idea is valid as long as it is accounted for. Nobody forces you to agree with other people. It is possible to disagree and still respect each other.

Of course my parents are Polish although they have eastern roots too. I do consider myself a patriot for all it matters. I love my country but I do not love it blindly. I see its drawbacks and things that should be changed. The fact that I am proud of our past and I am grateful to my ancestors for all they did to make my life better doesn´t mean I have the right to tell other people what to think. The idea is everybody chooses what they want to believe in or follow. If somebody doesn´t feel like it, it´s their choice and their right to do so. If somebody feels he´d be better off under occupation - it´s their thing.

The universals that you talk about - God, honour and homeland - are not so universal after all, be it for people´s religious beliefs, broad and subjective understanding of "honour" and the idea of homeland.

I do agree it´s a shame if a country´s president mixes up the words of the anthem but he´s a mockery of president as well. Yet, the majority elected him, should that oblige me to respect him? To respect his ideas? Never.

Let me also differ in the perception of what classifies as bravery during WWII. Pain and courage cannot be compared. Polish messianism? Please...unless you´re referring to our stereotypical faults - we´re big-headed and quarrelsome. 40 million nation of grumpy armchair critics putting JPII on their banners and feeling deeply offended if other nations remain neutral about him, not to mention those who dare to criticise him. That´s pathetic of us.