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70.       CANLI
5084 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 02:04 am

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

Lets start:

-National anthem. I remember saying that music our national anthem ´might have been taken´ somewhere from the west from a song called ´Carmen Silva´. 

By saying this, do you think i am disrespecting our national anthem? 

I have also critizised the words in our national anthem by saying that it contains some racist words..

This is the first two section we keep singing 30 times a week :

 

Fear not! For the crimson flag that proudly ripples in this glorious twilight, shall not fade,

Before the last fiery hearth that is ablaze within my nation is extinguished.

For That is the star of my nation, and it will forever shine;

It is mine; and solely belongs to my valiant nation.


Frown not, I beseech you, oh thou coy crescent,

But smile upon my heroic race! Why the anger, why the rage? ¹

This blood of ours which we shed for you shall not be blessed otherwise;

For Freedom is the absolute right of my God-worshiping nation.

 

I am saying what I said before again!!

By saying this, do you think i am disrespecting our national anthem? 

If some people think so, and raging with anger because of me saying that thenm too bad for them..

They can say whatever they like!! I did not care what they said previously, there is no indication from my part that I will take them more seriously this time..

 

-

-And about respecting the dead people; because he died etc..

I have every single right to ´not to feel sorry´ about a person who died and I have every right to ´not to respect´ a person because he died..

As I said you can accuse me about it as much as you can accuse ´a Chilian not feeling sorry because of Pinochet died´. 

And I made it claer about it in the relevant thread when I said, I can bring you the list about what murders he was associated with´. 

 

 

 lol have you said that handsom about the Turkish anthem ?! lol

What would you expect an anthem to say if not praise the country and the people with proud too?!

For example, what would you expect people who pay their blood in the battle field to say ?

As i remember you were/ are also against ´´ happy who is Turk ´´ ...yes ?!

What would you expect a Turk to say then ?

Happy who is American, brit, French ..?!

Again Turk are sons and daughters of Türkiye, not a race

 

We have similar saying too ´´if im not an Egyptian, i would loved to be an Egyptian´´

Being proud of who you are isnt something bad, is it ?!

Same also our National anthem praise our nation and our people, what would it praise then ?!

 

My country, my country, my country.
You have my love and my heart.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´! O mother of all lands,
My hope and my ambition,
And on all people
Your Nile has countless graces

My country, my country, my country,
My love and my heart are for thee.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´! Most precious jewel,
Shining on the brow of eternity!
O my homeland, be for ever free,
Safe from every foe!

My homeland, my homeland, my homeland,
My love and my heart are for thee.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´! Noble are your children,
Loyal, and guardians of the reins.
It will attain high aspirations
With their unity and with mine.

My homeland, my homeland, my homeland,
My love and my heart are for thee.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´, land of bounties
You ruled with ancient glory
My purpose is to repel the enemy
And on God I rely.
 

And as for the dead people, you dont show respect to the person...there is no more person handsom, he already died, you show respect to the death of that person.

To the idea that he is no longer here .

Ýts part of our culture and surely you are aware of it very well because its also yours

Not everything belong to our culture is a bad thing handsom !

You can show your disapproval with him later, but not at the same moment that person died !

 

Btw handsom, do you find anything  about Türkiye, Turks, traditions..etc that you like at all ?! Seems to me in your opinions, all are wrong and should be changed !

Just wondering !



Edited (4/2/2009) by CANLI

71.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 02:05 am

 

Quoting adana

 

 Do not compare amount of Polish blood lost  fighting for our AND OTHER NATIONS FREEDOM to Dutch one as you  appear not to  know  our history as well.)

 

 

Adana, aren´t you exaggerating here? How do you want to compare which nation´s history was worse or which nation was more heroic? Taken that The Netherlads are way smaller than Poland what´s your plan? To use percentages? each nation has been through wars, each had to protect its boundaries, each has moments of glory and moments of failure.

 

As for the anthem, it´s not the anthem that´s holy. You are free to criticise it. Some people are proud of what it represents, the history behind it but it´s not like the country is based ON the song. You may mock it, come up with silly lyrics and still feel confident about where you come from. Just think, all those who died, died so that you could live a happy life without facing a trial for making fun of the anthem. They died so that you could live in a better, freer country. No song is going to change it. You mentioned Bogurodzica - it is surely a religious song, does it mean I have to respect a song although I am an atheist? Should I consider it a representation of my ideas, a definition of who I am? I don´t think so. Surely I appreciate its historical value in linguistic terms but that´s it. Why do people choose to respect symbols over other people?

 

There are no universal national values, for the simple reason that nation is made up of PEOPLE and people have their own ideas, beliefs and subjective perception of the world. That´s why we should be free to express our opinions about everything and everyone. Any idea is valid as long as it is accounted for. Nobody forces you to agree with other people. It is possible to disagree and still respect each other.

72.       CANLI
5084 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 02:38 am

Ý was planning to give my 2 pennies in short after reading the thread overall, i should have known better, visiting TLC always takes more time than expected lol

 

Ok overall i agree with some here and disagree with some.

Ý agree with Jan on somethings and also agree with cat at another things.

Of course there are culture differnces, and what is acceptable to some, not acceptable to others

What can be seen as freedom of speech to some, can be seen as crossing the lines to others with degrees.

What can be seen by some as crap and they are glad they have changed their concept about it, can be seen by others as a respectable concepts and they do NOT want to change it to something else.

They are convinced by what they believe and dont want to change it

As you may see that is wrong and should be changed, they also see what you believe is wrong too.

Judging this as crap actually isnt a right of anyone at all

As it is not my right to judge those who have change in their concepts or those who have another concept to begin with.

Taking that thread of helicopter crash as an example.

A man died, and Sui wanted to share his feelings here with us, sad and worried ´before his death confirmed´ so first thing to say...well he deserved, he was such a bad guy ?!

By any mean is this acceptable ?!

To us..nope

Debate being carried away, and some try to make that clear that we should respect the dead, the man blood wasnt even dried yet !

So would the answer be that is a stupid tradition to respect the dead and its crap ?!

Ý dont think so !

 

We have differences in culture and we are all aware of that...as you demand others to have a space of freedom in the speech and to differentiate between criticism and expression one opinion and insults

Would it be that hard to respect also the concepts, traditions  of others too ?!

Somethings you see like freedom of speech in other culture its crossing the lines, exactly at in that thread

Respecting the dead!

Our traditions maybe strange to some of you, some dont understand, some dont want to understand, other think its nonsense and they are happy they dont believe in them any more but its not like that to us

Ýf we REALLY dont believe in them we wouldnt demanding to respect them, mutual respect.

 

Numbers of Turks and Easterns here are not much, not as same as Westerns, so their voices are not as stronger as Westerns too, but that doesnt mean what they believe and think is wrong and what Westerns believe and think is right.

 

Ým sorry that i had to use those 2 words which cause lots of arguments before but the case is culture differences

Like it or not, we have it, not only here at TLC but in the outside world too.

Hopefully we can sort our things here at TLC and reach some sort of understanding between us.

 

Ok that is more than 2 pennies...and im running out of time, see you guys !

73.       adana
416 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 02:43 am

 

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

Adana, aren´t you exaggerating here? How do you want to compare which nation´s history was worse or which nation was more heroic? Taken that The Netherlads are way smaller than Poland what´s your plan? To use percentages? each nation has been through wars, each had to protect its boundaries, each has moments of glory and moments of failure. well,I have no plan and I really appreciate the fact that most of nations were at wars  for independence at some historical times,just wanted to mention that we Poles cannot be compared to  others despite the size of other lands during  historical times,we were everywhere due to our adventurous character,being fooled by many goverments and ideas in our history,striving for our independence or getting involved into foreign affairs just in order to help and save others..ehhh..this mesjanizm suck with the mother´s milk..

the Netherlands during 2nd war were compelled almost in one day while Poland  was defending herself more being attacked by Germans and Russians almost at the same time.

the Dutch were as brave as french with one difference-they had no anti -agression brochures thrown from planes)

 

As for the anthem, it´s not the anthem that´s holy. You are free to criticise it. Some people are proud of what it represents, the history behind it but it´s not like the country is based ON the song. You may mock it, come up with silly lyrics and still feel confident about where you come from. Just think, all those who died, died so that you could live a happy life without facing a trial for making fun of the anthem. Piłsudzki would be of a different idea and those who died too,the shame of us Poles that our  former prime minister does not know the words of it and proved not being able to sing it...The shame on all who do not know it and mock at it...as for those who died on behalf of homeland and its independence it was a value not necessarilly holy.They died so that you could live in a better, freer country. No song is going to change it. You mentioned Bogurodzica  i did as a joke  in response to femme- it is surely a religious song, does it mean I have to respect a song although I am an atheist? Should I consider it a representation of my ideas, a definition of who I am? not you but let others in the name of your tolerance attitude.. I don´t think so. Surely I appreciate its historical value in linguistic terms but that´s it. Why do people choose to respect symbols over other people?

 

There are no universal national values where is God,honour,homeland or in case those who mock-gas,water,electricity.or in case of 15 years old-love,peace and music?, for the simple reason that nation is made up of PEOPLE and people have their own ideas, beliefs and subjective perception of the world.  are your parents from germany.russia or other land??If They are Poles they must have taught you Polish values ,which you can deny but do not say you did not hear Hey That´s why we should be free to express our opinions about everything and everyone. Any idea is valid as long as it is accounted for. Nobody forces you to agree with other people. It is possible to disagree and still respect each other.I agree but most od what is going here is to disagree and not respect the others

 

 



Edited (4/2/2009) by adana [a bit]

74.       Kiara
145 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 03:01 am

Quote:CANLI

We have differences in culture and we are all aware of that...as you demand others to have a space of freedom in the speech and to differentiate between criticism and expression one opinion and insults

Would it be that hard to respect also the concepts, traditions  of others too ?!

Somethings you see like freedom of speech in other culture its crossing the lines, exactly at in that thread

Respecting the dead!

Our traditions maybe strange to some of you, some dont understand, some dont want to understand, other think its nonsense and they are happy they dont believe in them any more but its not like that to us

Ýf we REALLY dont believe in them we wouldnt demanding to respect them, mutual respect.

very very well put (the whole post) I agree +10000000000

75.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 03:21 am

 

Quoting CANLI

 

 

 lol have you said that handsom about the Turkish anthem ?! lol

What would you expect an anthem to say if not praise the country and the people with proud too?!

For example, what would you expect people who pay their blood in the battle field to say ?

As i remember you were/ are also against ´´ happy who is Turk ´´ ...yes ?!

What would you expect a Turk to say then ?

Happy who is American, brit, French ..?!

Again Turk are sons and daughters of Türkiye, not a race

 

We have similar saying too ´´if im not an Egyptian, i would loved to be an Egyptian´´

Being proud of who you are isnt something bad, is it ?!

Same also our National anthem praise our nation and our people, what would it praise then ?!

 

My country, my country, my country.
You have my love and my heart.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´! O mother of all lands,
My hope and my ambition,
And on all people
Your Nile has countless graces

My country, my country, my country,
My love and my heart are for thee.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´! Most precious jewel,
Shining on the brow of eternity!
O my homeland, be for ever free,
Safe from every foe!

My homeland, my homeland, my homeland,
My love and my heart are for thee.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´! Noble are your children,
Loyal, and guardians of the reins.
It will attain high aspirations
With their unity and with mine.

My homeland, my homeland, my homeland,
My love and my heart are for thee.

Mýsýr ´Egypt´, land of bounties
You ruled with ancient glory
My purpose is to repel the enemy
And on God I rely.
 

And as for the dead people, you dont show respect to the person...there is no more person handsom, he already died, you show respect to the death of that person.

To the idea that he is no longer here .

Ýts part of our culture and surely you are aware of it very well because its also yours

Not everything belong to our culture is a bad thing handsom !

You can show your disapproval with him later, but not at the same moment that person died !

 

Btw handsom, do you find anything  about Türkiye, Turks, traditions..etc that you like at all ?! Seems to me in your opinions, all are wrong and should be changed !

Just wondering !

 

I dont think you understand me really..

I said my mational anthem, somehow, contains some racists remarks. Well maybe all national anthems contains some racist remarks..I dont know others in details ..

But I dont find being proud of your race is very heathly thing really.. When someone talks to me ´how proud because he is as an english´ I always raise my eye brow in the UK..

You can think it is normal to be proud of your race but it is not for me..Sorry..

 

And yes..I was against the saying ´ne mutlu Turkum diyene´.. And I explained why..I said that ´Turk´ in that saying unfortunately does not imply of citizenship but a race. And because a country should be able to embrace the other ethinicities, it is not right..And in the end, it is not what it is we-Turks- say it is..it is how it is percieved by the other ethnic minorities..Unfortunately they think that the  word ´turk´ refers to a race in that saying  (because of the very same word refers to a race/ethnicity in many many sayings). And when you think of the nationalists screaming those words into other ethnic minorities in Turkey, the minorities dont like it..(btw..the AKP government decided to remove -ne mutlu Turkum diyene- writings in the mountains of kurdish areas. did you know that? why do you think they have decided to remove them? )

If you were right the government is doing a something  wrong..But unfortunately, you are not right..But I am..

I am going to repeat one more time..TURK as a word refers to an ethnicity in most cases... We turks should not lie to ourselves on this issue...In the end it is not what we say it means..but how they percieve it is..and they percieve it as ethnicity..

That is the bottom line..

You can be proud of anything you like..

If you are proud of your race, I will keep my right to critisize it (If I dont, I  can not explain why I am not a racist)..

That is another bottom line..

Lets dont go into that dead person thing please.. I really dont want to talk about it anymore.. But I think, again, you did not understand..If you were a person from Chile (the country in South America and their famous dictator was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet) would you forgive him when he died? or would you be critisizing  people who were NOT sorry beacuse he died?

You can say that yes..you would critisize them because the dictator is dead now and they should respect him..And you can call it a good tradition..


76.       adana
416 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 03:27 am

theH despite animosity among us can you tell me why do you keep on referring to Pinochet?Just curiosity))

77.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 03:29 am

 

Quoting CANLI

 

A man died, and Sui wanted to share his feelings here with us, sad and worried ´before his death confirmed´ so first thing to say...well he deserved, he was such a bad guy ?!

By any mean is this acceptable ?!

To us..nope

Debate being carried away, and some try to make that clear that we should respect the dead, the man blood wasnt even dried yet !

So would the answer be that is a stupid tradition to respect the dead and its crap ?!

Ý dont think so !

 

 

Sui was praising a guy who was a well known fascist and associated with killings of some people (They were killed beacuse of their religion, because of their political orientations)

Nobody has said ´well he deserved´..that is just your perception and understanding!!

You understand that way..That is the cultural difference..(and that cultural difference is nothing to do with east and west!!!)

78.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 03:31 am

 

Quoting adana

 

 

 

 

Of course my parents are Polish although they have eastern roots too. I do consider myself a patriot for all it matters. I love my country but I do not love it blindly. I see its drawbacks and things that should be changed. The fact that I am proud of our past and I am grateful to my ancestors for all they did to make my life better doesn´t mean I have the right to tell other people what to think. The idea is everybody chooses what they want to believe in or follow. If somebody doesn´t feel like it, it´s their choice and their right to do so. If somebody feels he´d be better off under occupation - it´s their thing.

 

The universals that you talk about - God, honour and homeland - are not so universal after all, be it for people´s religious beliefs, broad and subjective understanding of "honour" and the idea of homeland.

 

I do agree it´s a shame if a country´s president mixes up the words of the anthem but he´s a mockery of president as well. Yet, the majority elected him, should that oblige me to respect him? To respect his ideas? Never.

 

Let me also differ in the perception of what classifies as bravery during WWII. Pain and courage cannot be compared. Polish messianism? Please...unless you´re referring to our stereotypical faults - we´re big-headed and quarrelsome. 40 million nation of grumpy armchair critics putting JPII on their banners and feeling deeply offended if other nations remain neutral about him, not to mention those who dare to criticise him. That´s pathetic of us.

79.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 03:33 am

 

Quoting adana

theH despite animosity among us can you tell me why do you keep on referring to Pinochet?Just curiosity))

 

Why not? They both killed their own country men with the pretext of nationalism by accusing the others whom they killed as traitors. (the difference is the numbers of people they killed)

80.       adana
416 posts
 02 Apr 2009 Thu 03:43 am

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

Why not? They both killed their own country men with the pretext of nationalism by accusing the others whom they killed as traitors. (the difference is the numbers of people they killed)

 

 both u mean?????

and castro and che, and trocki  qualify into your perception also?help me to understand ur track of thinking

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