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Always at Home
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1.       juliacernat
424 posts
 10 Apr 2009 Fri 08:49 pm

"When you think that you can slip between countries and cultures with ease, never fully belonging but always at home, then you have become a seasoned world traveler. People often ask me which country I like best, Turkey or America. I usually answer both have positive and negative points.

Another question that I am always asked is what life is like for Muslim women. Sometimes the Western press portrays situations in a way that makes it appear like all Muslim women are suffering. Often Western women are of the opinion that all Muslim women need to be liberated.

 

It is true that in some ways Muslim women’s lives are alien to Westerners, and yet in many ways, we have similarly felt needs and share the same universal human nature.

During the time that I have lived here in Turkey, I have learned of the joys and sorrows, hopes and daily routines of a cast of characters: my neighbors, my work colleagues, my friends.

Position has an important role in society here. For instance, family ties are important. I have some friends who are related to the Cebesoy family. Also, the position of your husband determines your status in society.

Being a foreigner, you cross social lines that Turks may not. During my time here, I have become acquainted with women who are members of the privileged class and those who are not. One friend’s father owned a carpet shop and another friend was the wife of the CEO of a large company and another was a widowed housewife with one daughter.

In eastern Turkey, I made friends with a family who were of Turkic nomadic origin while conducting official research on the demographic patterns of Afghans of Turkic origin. The husband had three wives. Although polygamy is not legally allowed in Turkey, these refugees were granted permission to bring their wives and children with them when they moved to Turkey as refugees from Pakistan in the 1980s. This husband’s three wives have a special status in society because their husband was the head of a clan.

Most educated women in Turkey have a status in their own right, such as those who are professionals working as CEOs, principals of schools, educationalists, medical personnel, artists, etc.

Social life is rapidly changing in urban areas as children are being sent to private schools across town, and they are making friends at school. Private school programs are demanding in terms of time. Often, children do not know who their neighbors are because they are not home that much. However, years ago in Turkey -- and still true to some degree in villages today -- boys and girls from the same neighborhood all played together until age 11 or 12.

Of course, in a more traditional Muslim community, you may find that women prefer to marry men within their own circle or tribe. In more remote areas or very conservative Muslim backgrounds, there are still some situations where arranged marriages occur, but it is not so common. Due to traditional Islamic culture in which a man and woman are not supposed to meet face to face until their wedding day, marrying a man from her own tribe (or of your parents’ choice) gave a woman a backdoor way of selecting her own husband. After all, when you have grown up playing together for years, you get to know each other well. Sometimes, the women had specific men from among their old set of playmates that they had picked out as a hoped-for future spouse, an arrangement which could then be made by the woman’s family.

When Western foreigners hear that couples have arranged marriages, they strongly dislike the interference of parents in the matter, but actually, foreigners do not realize that not all arranged marriages are bad.

As an anthropologist, I have had the opportunity to travel in many countries in Central Asia and the Middle East and have recognized that these preconceptions work both ways. Just as my friends in the US feel my female Muslim friends live their lives surrounded by prohibitions, my Muslim friends seem equally prejudiced about my homeland. It is very hard to overcome cultural barriers.

Turkey is rapidly changing. Given the major ways in which Turkish culture and politics have changed over the past 30 years, it will be fascinating to observe how changes play out at the ground level, in both villages and urban areas.

I love slipping between cultures and countries with more and more ease, never fully belonging but always at home".

 

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazarDetay.do?haberno=172011

 

 

 

2.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 10 Apr 2009 Fri 09:30 pm

I can´t agree with the statement that arranged marriages sometimes are not so bad. Usually in communities with arranged marriages divorces are rare. I may agree that women accept their situation and make the best of it as they have no choice as they´re taught to think that´s the way things should be. Of course not all arranged husbands are abusive, I´m sure some are nice guys but if you don´t marry for love but for duty it´s hard to speak of successful marriage

3.       alameda
3499 posts
 10 Apr 2009 Fri 11:50 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

I can´t agree with the statement that arranged marriages sometimes are not so bad. Usually in communities with arranged marriages divorces are rare. I may agree that women accept their situation and make the best of it as they have no choice as they´re taught to think that´s the way things should be. Of course not all arranged husbands are abusive, I´m sure some are nice guys but if you don´t marry for love but for duty it´s hard to speak of successful marriage

 

I disagree with you DD..Wink.... I don´t know how many "arranged marriages" you have observed at close range, but from my observation, most actually work out pretty well.  I think you are thinking of a model where the couple don´t know each other, and are being forced to wed each other (yes, males also can be forced to wed someone against their will). Nobody should be forced to marry anyone.

 

They can be quite successful.  Many I know of the couple knew each other from school and liked each other.  In many cultures marriageable youth do not date, thus the opportunities to "fall in love" are minimized.  That is not really such a bad idea.  What is looked for is compatibility, someone who is on the same road.  Familial compatibility is important, as the prospective spouses are going to be part of the famlies.

 

In Turkey, after a suitable partner has been found and both agree, often they date (not alone and unsupervised) for a while to see if they get along. If all goes well, they get married.

 

I can´t say marriage is doing so well in the "West". It seems many women are choosing to have children with out a husband, many couples live together for years without making a committment, and often times the split up...and go on the search for a mate again.

 

If the object is to find a life mate, having help finding a suitable one isn´t that bad an idea.  In fact what with the proliferation of services to hook up compatable partners, it´s looking like we are comeing full circle.

 

People don´t always fall in love with compatible persons.  I refer to the "bad boy/girl" syndrome many "Westerners"  fall into.  It´s actually not that hard to fall in love with someone, particularly when intimacy has been shared.  We certainly see it here a lot.

 

4.       Queent
183 posts
 11 Apr 2009 Sat 01:26 am

 

Quoting juliacernat

Another question that I am always asked is what life is like for Muslim women. Sometimes the Western press portrays situations in a way that makes it appear like all Muslim women are suffering. Often Western women are of the opinion that all Muslim women need to be liberated.

 

 

Merhaba

may the Western women here tell us why do they think Muslim women are suffering, and why should they be liberated?

thanks in advance



Edited (4/11/2009) by Queent [sleepy ]

5.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 11 Apr 2009 Sat 02:37 pm

 

Quoting alameda

 

 

 

 

Alameda, that´s exactly what I meant - the fact that they´re doing pretty well doesn´t mean they´re successful marriages. The beauty of marriage is living your life with somebody you chose and who chose you without being traded. If you believe that marriage is just a transaction - he´ll provide for me and I´ll open my legs in exchange every now and then, then you´ve got a point. Women (and men) who want to give up one of the most important decisions in their lives will surely benefit from that exchange. To me, however, it seems more like prostitution or slavery. How can parents make that decision for anybody? That would mean parents do not make mistakes or that they treat their children as commodity. And we all know that parents and children not always agree on what´s best for either.

 

It is true that in the western world there are many unsuccessful marriages and many end with a divorce. But it´s human right to make mistakes, isn´t it? And I´ll still abide by my opinion that in comunities where arranged marriages apply, people will less likely resort to divorce NOT because they are happy with what they have but simply because it´s against the social convenance. Hence it´s hard to judge how successful the marriages are just by comparing divorce rate.

 

It´s not surprise I will not agree with your opinion about sharing intimacy I believe that sexual compatibility is crucial for a relationship to pull off. Otherwise one side will always have to subject to other person´s needs (or lack of them). Just think about it - you´re choosing a person for the next, say, 50 years. How can you do it without gathering as much data as possible? Would you buy a car without a test drive? A cat in a bag? Even employing staff you usually take them for a trial period first. I think the dating process is in a way a trial, not only for sex, but it lets you observe the person in different situations, their interactions with other people, their moods. Somehow it´s hard for me to imagine to marry a stranger, a person I might not like or agree with and having sex with them right after the wedding and on the nights to follow. That makes me shriek even though I have a westerner´s attitude to intimacy

 

Familiarity, compatibility do not guarantee a successful marriage either, were it so, a simple survey would judge two people´s prospective success. Unfortunately human relations escape standards and hardly ever are predictable. Moreover, people change, their goals, perspectives and demands change all life long. Sometimes a person you married and was happy with in the innitial years, no longer gives you happiness after some time. Of course you may still decide to be with him/her and quench your desire to change things believing that second-best is good enough but it doesn´t mean you´re happy. If you´re taught that divorce is wrong, you will last in your marriage. I´m not talking about extremes here - domestic violence, unfaithfulness but about the majority of relationships that are together and are neither unhappy nor fully satisfied. Countries that promote freedom of choice help those people live their life basing on choice, not social obedience. If you stay with your partner, it´s because you want to, not because you feel obligued to.

 

The other situation you talk about - the one when parents only suggest a partner, doesn´t raise my objections. As long as both sides are able to reject that partner then it´s no different than meeting your future wife/husband anywhere else. A suggestion is not obligation, plus the young ones do date so, after all, it´s their choice, not their parents´

6.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 11 Apr 2009 Sat 02:44 pm

 

Quoting Queent

 

Quoting juliacernat

Another question that I am always asked is what life is like for Muslim women. Sometimes the Western press portrays situations in a way that makes it appear like all Muslim women are suffering. Often Western women are of the opinion that all Muslim women need to be liberated.

 

 

Merhaba

may the Western women here tell us why do they think Muslim women are suffering, and why should they be liberated?

thanks in advance

Merhaba

I can´t speak for all western women, just for myself. Some things we hear about are not only unacceptable for us but also scary. Like the issue of arranged marriages discussed above or living in a patriarchal society where women have to ask men from their families to allow them to go to school or work. We can´t understand why women can´t go out on their own, drive cars or use a computer. We believe rape is a crime that men are responsible for and it´s not women that should be punished for it. We think women should have the same rights as men because they´re no different intellectually. All choices they make should be their choices because they can think for themselves.

 

7.       alameda
3499 posts
 14 Apr 2009 Tue 12:43 am

 

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

Alameda, that´s exactly what I meant - the fact that they´re doing pretty well doesn´t mean they´re successful marriages. The beauty of marriage is living your life with somebody you chose and who chose you without being traded.

 

If you believe that marriage is just a transaction - he´ll provide for me and I´ll open my legs in exchange every now and then, then you´ve got a point. Women (and men) who want to give up one of the most important decisions in their lives will surely benefit from that exchange. To me, however, it seems more like prostitution or slavery. How can parents make that decision for anybody? That would mean parents do not make mistakes or that they treat their children as commodity. And we all know that parents and children not always agree on what´s best for either.

 

It is true that in the western world there are many unsuccessful marriages and many end with a divorce. But it´s human right to make mistakes, isn´t it? And I´ll still abide by my opinion that in comunities where arranged marriages apply, people will less likely resort to divorce NOT because they are happy with what they have but simply because it´s against the social convenance. Hence it´s hard to judge how successful the marriages are just by comparing divorce rate.

 

It´s not surprise I will not agree with your opinion about sharing intimacy I believe that sexual compatibility is crucial for a relationship to pull off. Otherwise one side will always have to subject to other person´s needs (or lack of them). Just think about it - you´re choosing a person for the next, say, 50 years. How can you do it without gathering as much data as possible? Would you buy a car without a test drive? A cat in a bag? Even employing staff you usually take them for a trial period first. I think the dating process is in a way a trial, not only for sex, but it lets you observe the person in different situations, their interactions with other people, their moods. Somehow it´s hard for me to imagine to marry a stranger, a person I might not like or agree with and having sex with them right after the wedding and on the nights to follow. That makes me shriek even though I have a westerner´s attitude to intimacy

 

Familiarity, compatibility do not guarantee a successful marriage either, were it so, a simple survey would judge two people´s prospective success. Unfortunately human relations escape standards and hardly ever are predictable. Moreover, people change, their goals, perspectives and demands change all life long. Sometimes a person you married and was happy with in the innitial years, no longer gives you happiness after some time. Of course you may still decide to be with him/her and quench your desire to change things believing that second-best is good enough but it doesn´t mean you´re happy. If you´re taught that divorce is wrong, you will last in your marriage. I´m not talking about extremes here - domestic violence, unfaithfulness but about the majority of relationships that are together and are neither unhappy nor fully satisfied. Countries that promote freedom of choice help those people live their life basing on choice, not social obedience. If you stay with your partner, it´s because you want to, not because you feel obligued to.

 

The other situation you talk about - the one when parents only suggest a partner, doesn´t raise my objections. As long as both sides are able to reject that partner then it´s no different than meeting your future wife/husband anywhere else. A suggestion is not obligation, plus the young ones do date so, after all, it´s their choice, not their parents´

 

 Of course one should be with one they want to be with....but what we want is not always the best for us.....Maybe a little help with our focus is a good idea?...but I´m confused by your saying "traded"? What do you mean traded? Who is talking about trades? Unless, off course, we consider the fact that life consists of thousands of trades....this for that...you are trading being single for being married.

 

That is a rather gross way to look at marriage. Marriage has many aspects, companionship, shareing. During your marriage, you "should" grow together. A good marriage takes cultivation, it just "doesn´t happen". Have you ever had a garden? If you have noticed you have to care for the plants. Very few gardens flourish with neglect.

 

Prostitution, slavery???

 

Yes, I wanted to smoke when I was 13, my parents did not want me to smoke. When I think of all the things I wanted as a teenager or young adult, it makes me shudder.  How do you see parents treating their children as a commodity?  In Islam, it is forbidden for parents to sell their children. Girls do get receive a dowery, but it´s hers, not her parents.

 

A trial run?....and if that doesn´t work, you take another trial run?  How many trial runs before it´s something else?  Who is talking about commodities here? So you think you should try it out first. Of course, that´s unthinkable for many. Given the rise in STDs in the last 30 years, maybe these try outs are not such a great idea?   Also, sexual thrills can, and very often do,  wear out.  There was a song, the Thrill is Gone....How many here have we read where the sex was great, but they were totaly incompatable in every other respect.

 

What is happiness? I think people confuse romantic love with marital love. Romantic love is a different type of love. Marital love developes during one´s lifetime. It should develop nicely with mutual respect and compassion.

 

All cultures teach divorce is wrong. After all, haven´t you made a committment to stay with someone and make a life together? You have made a vow to stay with someone, shouldn´t one feel bad about breaking one´s vow? Who feels fully satisfied? How many are happy they don´t have a toothache? When they do have one they complaign a LOT. Most are not happy with their lot. Does not much of one´s happiness depend on appreciation of the gifts one has, instead of always looking at the grass on the other side of the fence?

 

If course one should be able to reject a potential spouse. The difference is actually quite large. You are wedding someone who gets along with your family, and has met with their approval and blessings.  You have included your parents in your most important decision.

 

From what I´ve read, girls situation is quite dire in some situations, particularly in India, where the bride is expected to pay for her husband.  In Greece, the bride is supposed to give bring a dowry with her.

 

Dowry



Edited (4/14/2009) by alameda [add link...the thrill is gone :-)]
Edited (4/14/2009) by alameda [edit]

8.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 14 Apr 2009 Tue 01:56 am

 

Quoting alameda

 

 

 Of course one should be with one they want to be with....but what we want is not always the best for us.....Maybe a little help with our focus is a good idea?...but I´m confused by your saying "traded"? What do you mean traded? Who is talking about trades? Unless, off course, we consider the fact that life consists of thousands of trades....this for that...you are trading being single for being married.

 

If what we want is not always best for us then neither is what others want for us as well. Even though a partner is chosen by loving parents, it doesn´t mean that he or she will be good for us. I used the word "traded" referring to situations where parents "sell" their daughters. That´s my idea of arranged marriages. Two families decide it´s convinient to marry their children and it happens without giving those children the right to say no.

 

That is a rather gross way to look at marriage. Marriage has many aspects, companionship, shareing. During your marriage, you "should" grow together. A good marriage takes cultivation, it just "doesn´t happen". Have you ever had a garden? If you have noticed you have to care for the plants. Very few gardens flourish with neglect.

 

And how does getting married of love exclude growing together? I believe it´s easier to look for compromise and fight for your marriage if you married a person you loved, not somebody assgned to you

 

Prostitution, slavery???

How else would you call having to have sex with somebody you don´t love but who married you because he paid for you?

 

Yes, I wanted to smoke when I was 13, my parents did not want me to smoke. When I think of all the things I wanted as a teenager or young adult, it makes me shudder.  How do you see parents treating their children as a commodity?  In Islam, it is forbidden for parents to sell their children. Girls do get receive a dowery, but it´s hers, not her parents.

 

That´s th beauty of growing up and learning from your mistakes. How will you be able to know what´s good or bad unless you have experience? I wouldn´t do 70% of things I would do 15 years ago as I´m way too reasonable now. I´ve made a lot of mistakes but I´m glad I did as they made me who I am now. Dowry is a totally different matter, what I am talking about is wealthy men buying themselves wives or families arranging marriages like business deals. I recall a discussion we had a while ago where Canli said that in Islam women have the right to refuse a candidate they do not like. That works for me, but, unfortunately theory and practice are ages apart and social custom in Muslim countries (I´m not saying that it does or doesn´t stem from the religion) results in girls given to men regardless of their own will. Plus, it´s a matter of how you´re taught to perceive yourself. If you´re led to believe that you should marry whoever your parents choose, you will do it as you do not want to be disobedient.

 

A trial run?....and if that doesn´t work, you take another trial run?  How many trial runs before it´s something else?  Who is talking about commodities here? So you think you should try it out first. Of course, that´s unthinkable for many. Given the rise in STDs in the last 30 years, maybe these try outs are not such a great idea?   Also, sexual thrills can, and very often do,  wear out.  There was a song, the Thrill is Gone....How many here have we read where the sex was great, but they were totaly incompatable in every other respect.

 

Sex doesn´t need to lead to STDs and a person is free to have it as often, with as many partners and for as many reasons as they want. If you mind being with a person who had other partners before you, you simply don´t marry them. If you don´t then it´s your choice. Having numerous partners is not necessarily proof of treating them as commodities. Believe it or not, some people have sex because they like it. Of course sexual thrill wears off with time but sexual desire is one of the basic instincts that drives us together. If you marry without "thrills" then there´s no spark to wear off and you spend your life not knowing the thrill at all. Grown-up people understand that needs change but at least they have nice memories lol I feel sorry for people who have never wanted somebody badly and had the pleasure of experiencing the joy of fulfillment once they got want they wanted. You´re absolutely right that sex is just a part of life and there are plenty of other aspects to consider deciding for a lifetime together. I just wonder how you can make this choice without being attracted to your partner. Sleeping with somebody you´re not attracted to is terrible.

 

What is happiness? I think people confuse romantic love with marital love. Romantic love is a different type of love. Marital love developes during one´s lifetime. It should develop nicely with mutual respect and compassion.

 

I agree that it should develop. But I still argue that it should start with romantic love and then evolve into mature relationship. The idea of starting as strangers who ay have nothing in common, just obligation seems depressing to me.

 

All cultures teach divorce is wrong. After all, haven´t you made a committment to stay with someone and make a life together? You have made a vow to stay with someone, shouldn´t one feel bad about breaking one´s vow? Who feels fully satisfied? How many are happy they don´t have a toothache? When they do have one they complaign a LOT. Most are not happy with their lot. Does not much of one´s happiness depend on appreciation of the gifts one has, instead of always looking at the grass on the other side of the fence?

 

A vow is just a vow. It is people who are important. Sometimes people are better off not together. You can´t be with somebody just because you said an oath. If there´s noting to save, if your marriage gives you more pain than joy, why the masochism of lasting in something that´s wasting your life?

 

If course one should be able to reject a potential spouse. The difference is actually quite large. You are wedding someone who gets along with your family, and has met with their approval and blessings.  You have included your parents in your most important decision.

 

Agreed here. It´s great when both you and your parents want the same thing (person). This situation is not a problem. the problem comes when you and your parents want different things. What to do then?

 

From what I´ve read, girls situation is quite dire in some situations, particularly in India, where the bride is expected to pay for her husband.  In Greece, the bride is supposed to give bring a dowry with her.

 

I think it was a general custom in Europe for girls to have dowry, no respected man would take a woman without dowry. But that was in Middle Ages lol Joking of course, I´m sure it lasted till WWII. Nowadays dowry is not an issue.

 

 

 

9.       alameda
3499 posts
 15 Apr 2009 Wed 08:50 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 #1  If what we want is not always best for us then neither is what others want for us as well. Even though a partner is chosen by loving parents, it doesn´t mean that he or she will be good for us. I used the word "traded" referring to situations where parents "sell" their daughters. That´s my idea of arranged marriages. Two families decide it´s convinient to marry their children and it happens without giving those children the right to say no.

 

#2 And how does getting married of love exclude growing together? I believe it´s easier to look for compromise and fight for your marriage if you married a person you loved, not somebody assgned to you.


#3  How else would you call having to have sex with somebody you don´t love but who married you because he paid for you?


#4 That´s th beauty of growing up and learning from your mistakes. How will you be able to know what´s good or bad unless you have experience? I wouldn´t do 70% of things I would do 15 years ago as I´m way too reasonable now. I´ve made a lot of mistakes but I´m glad I did as they made me who I am now.


 #5 Dowry is a totally different matter, what I am talking about is wealthy men buying themselves wives or families arranging marriages like business deals. I recall a discussion we had a while ago where Canli said that in Islam women have the right to refuse a candidate they do not like. That works for me, but, unfortunately theory and practice are ages apart and social custom in Muslim countries (I´m not saying that it does or doesn´t stem from the religion) results in girls given to men regardless of their own will. Plus, it´s a matter of how you´re taught to perceive yourself. If you´re led to believe that you should marry whoever your parents choose, you will do it as you do not want to be disobedient.


#6 Sex doesn´t need to lead to STDs and a person is free to have it as often, with as many partners and for as many reasons as they want. If you mind being with a person who had other partners before you, you simply don´t marry them. If you don´t then it´s your choice. Having numerous partners is not necessarily proof of treating them as commodities. Believe it or not, some people have sex because they like it. Of course sexual thrill wears off with time but sexual desire is one of the basic instincts that drives us together. If you marry without "thrills" then there´s no spark to wear off and you spend your life not knowing the thrill at all. Grown-up people understand that needs change but at least they have nice memories Joking of course, I´m sure it lasted till WWII. Nowadays dowry is not an issue.

 

 

#1 I think your definition of arranged is inaccurate.  Here is my definition (yes I know your English is great, I´m just trying to clarify what I mean. )

 

#2  Marriage based on romantic love rarely lasts. It is rare  romantic love can survive the harsh light of reality.  Can you imagine Romer with halitosis in the morning, Julliet with a bad hair day, smelly socks in the laundry.....Love that is cultivated has a better chance for survival.  Of course anyone getting married should be very attracted to the potential partner...

 

# 3 I would call that awful! It would be rape.....but arranged marriage is not that. refer to definition of arranged above. I am totaly against any forced marriage and think it should be stopped!

 

#5  Some mistakes are irreparable. I´m glad there was someone around to prevent my making those mistakes...although I made a lot of mistakes too.

 

 #5 I would be very hard to ever love somene assigned to one...but on the other hand...some help in finding a mate is useful. A rational eye so to speak.  When one is "crazy for someone" their sight is often foggy. Then,  what is love? Is it being thrilled at the touch of someone, or is it something that grows and deepens? Romantic love is very much illusory. When subjected to the harsh light of reality, it often does not last. Romeo with halitosis? There are many different types of love......

 

#5 Canli was correct. Forced marriage is very much against Islamic law. I realize it happens in some Islamic societies, it also happens in a lot of others as well. We just had the case of the Fundimentalist Later Day Saints marrying off 14 year old girls to much older men, against their will....so you see...it is a sad practice that happens in way too many societies.

#6  It has been found that a multitude of sexual partners in a large contributing factor in STDs.  Even if we just look at the emotional turmoil, isn´t that something to really consider? Stress isn´t good for health either.

 

10.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 15 Apr 2009 Wed 10:03 pm

Ok, I think we´re finally agreeing here. True, I was referring more to forced marriages than arranged ones. If you google Wikipaedia you´ll see that arranged marriages are arranged by parents, match-makers or matrimonial offices. No problems here, as long as it is the bride and groom who have the last word at the end of the day, it doesn´t matter how they get to know each other.

 

What I cannot understand is why the notion of romantic love is discredited by you. I am not a very romantic person myself but most people I know married because they fell in love with each other. Romeo and Juliette were 13 or thereabouts so no wonder they were not emotionally mature to have a relationship. Plus, it´s fiction Let´s get back to reality, I´ll give you an example of how things are with my friends. I´m 30 and I there were 28 people in my class in secondary school (we don´t have classes to pick individually, we choose a group and have all classes together for 4 years). So, there were 28 people, 20 f and 8 m. The statistics are as follows:

 

2f live in a long-term relationship

1m and 2 f are single

1m is divorced

the rest are happily married

2 have 2 children

6 have 1 child

 

All those who got married married out of love. It seems it´s not such a bad base after all. I think you´re mixing up naivety with love. Love comes in phases, first it overwhelms you but you don´t make lifetime decisions at that phase. Once it becomes not so wild you may consider marriage. Most of the people I know have similar attitude towards marriage - love, getting to know each other for some time and then marry if at all. I doubt that what you choose is worse than what your parents choose. I wouldn´t trust my parents to buy me clothes, let alone choose a husband lol

 

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