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Denial versus freedom of speech
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29 May 2009 Fri 10:23 pm |
In my country denial of the Holocaust is punishable by law. Denying that horrible event is according to the law an immense insult and a form of discrimination. These days there is a discussion in parliament about it. Should it be allowed to say the Holocaust never happened because freedom of speech is more valuable than the denial and people should be able to speak up their minds without limitation? Parties, politicians and others fight each other about it. During my travels I´ve met some people all over the world who did deny it, maybe because they were not too smart, maybe because they´re antisemite, I don´t know.
I have two questions for you:
Is the denial of the Holocaust also forbidden and punishable by law in your country?
If so, should it stay that way or do you think that freedom of speech is more important?
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2. |
29 May 2009 Fri 10:32 pm |
In my country denial of the Holocaust is punishable by law. Denying that horrible event is according to the law an immense insult and a form of discrimination. These days there is a discussion in parliament about it. Should it be allowed to say the Holocaust never happened because freedom of speech is more valuable than the denial and people should be able to speak up their minds without limitation? Parties, politicians and others fight each other about it. During my travels I´ve met some people all over the world who did deny it, maybe because they were not too smart, maybe because they´re antisemite, I don´t know.
I have two questions for you:
Is the denial of the Holocaust also forbidden and punishable by law in your country?
If so, should it stay that way or do you think that freedom of speech is more important?
If people deny the Holocaust as in freedom of speech to say so is one thing but for them to believe that that is the case is another. I am not sure it should be punishable by law, what would be gained? Is it enough that these people make themselves look stupid when it is a proven fact and there are living survivors??
A law has been rejected in the UK, because of the freedom of speech aspect, but it is widely legislated through much of Europe.
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30 May 2009 Sat 12:14 am |
Trudy, you see sometimes, some matters are given an exception status and the Holocaust is one of them. In order to guarantee that everyone pays homage to its victims even the freedom of speech has been stretched a little bit. The whole incident is something that still hurts the conscience of Europe. Many thing right or wrong were done in order to make up for the pain inflicted on European Jewry and that includes the creation of Israel on somebody else´s land. If we take the reason for all those laws were made as our basis, we must also not let people curse Islam, mock its prophet by way of those silly cartoons that they are so proud of. After all, that shows, there are indeed limitations on the freedom of speech, you can´t enjoy this right at the expense of others´ hurt feelings.
After all it is still the same old world populated by the herds of those three - four prophets. All evil is committed in their name and somehow we never learn to regret. There is a universal rule that could guide us: politeness. Unfortunately, no one takes heed of it.
Edited (5/30/2009) by vineyards
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4. |
30 May 2009 Sat 12:17 am |
In Poland it´s illegal to deny Holocaust, just as it´s illegal to promote nazism, fascism or communism. It stems from the rule that it is illegal to promote hatered. Still, there is a communist party in Poland, they haven´t been in the parliament since ´89 (when communism came down) but they are in favour of communistic economy, not state
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5. |
30 May 2009 Sat 12:27 am |
Trudy, you see sometimes, some matters are given an exception status and the Holocaust is one of them. In order to guarantee that everyone pays homage to it even the freedom of speech has been stretched a little bit. The whole incident is something that still hurts the conscience of Europe. Many thing right or wrong were done in order to make up for the pain inflicted on European Jewry and that includes the creation of Israel on somebody else´s land. If we take the reason for all those laws were made as our basis, we must also not let people curse Islam, mock its prophet by way of those silly cartoons that they are so proud of. After all, that shows, there are indeed limitations on the freedom of speech, you can´t enjoy this right at the expense of others´ hurt feelings.
After all it is still the same old world populated by the herds of those three - four prophets. All evil is committed in their name and somehow we never learn to regret. There is a universal rule that could guide us: politeness. Unfortunately, no one takes heed of it.
Sorry Vineyards, I disagree with you at one point: comparing the Holocaust with mocking cartoons is comparing Istanbul with Kemaliye.
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30 May 2009 Sat 12:51 am |
For the record I think holocaust denial is wrong but I´m not so sure about an actual law.....shouldn´t we have a right to ask questions.... we know it was true, so the truth will show. I would perfer to have all the facts available and to make an informed decision. This law kind of enters the realm of thought crime which is terribly hard to police especially in a system that is already so corrupt
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30 May 2009 Sat 02:31 am |
Sorry Vineyards, I disagree with you at one point: comparing the Holocaust with mocking cartoons is comparing Istanbul with Kemaliye.
They say 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust and if you say where is the proof, you are usually attacked on suspicion that you are a Holocaust denier. I have nothing to say about the magnitude and gravity of these string of incidents which we collectively call as the Holocaust. There is however a need for freely asking questions and to refuse some of the answers when you are not quite satisfied about their accuracy.
There are other tragic incidents in history (not necessarily comparable) which are very well documented and undeniable. For example, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagazaki were two such events. You don´t even need to deny them because it is perfectly legal to sing praises of the virtues of killing one hundred thousand people in one go and maiming several folds more of them while dooming generations to suffer the consequences of the radiactive emission. You are free to go to any forum on the net and openly defend the bombings. You may even be harassed if you take sides with the Japs. After all, the US government has never officially apoligized to the families of the victims and sufferers.
As for the comparison between the Mohammad cartoons and the Holocaust. A principle is a principle. The law does not allow people committing smaller offenses to walk away. If you kill one person you usually get a life sentence. If you kill one million people, you still get the same punishment because the principles are the same. This is plain truth just like both Istanbul and Kemaliye are essentially towns of different sizes.
We are not talking about a couple of Muslim types who can be corrected by showing a few cartoons to them. We are talking in billions when we refer to the Muslims. Daydreamer explains the basis of the restrictions against the Holocaust denial in her country around the principle of preventing the spreading of hatred. Well, aren´t these people spreading hatred among more than a billion people elsewhere and contributing to the hatred between civilizations and aren´t they using the excuse of free speech as a cover?
P.S. Nazis killed a total of 46 million Russians 18 million of which were innocent civilians who fell victim to a mentality that regarded communists as subhuman creatures. This was also a holocaust, the fact that Russia was a big country and eventually struck back doesn´t change the nature of the incident.
Today, no one remembers the sacrifices of the Red Army and of (Soviet) Russian people in general.
Edited (5/30/2009) by vineyards
Edited (5/30/2009) by vineyards
Edited (5/30/2009) by vineyards
Edited (5/30/2009) by vineyards
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8. |
30 May 2009 Sat 04:41 am |
Sorry Vineyards, I disagree with you at one point: comparing the Holocaust with mocking cartoons is comparing Istanbul with Kemaliye.
Actually, the mocking cartoons (and the adamant justification/denial is one of the stages towards Genocide....a Holocast....it dehumanizes, mocks and belittles "others"....concentrating on the "otherness"....going down the trail to dehumanization of the "other" group.
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30 May 2009 Sat 05:09 am |
For the record I think holocaust denial is wrong but I´m not so sure about an actual law.....shouldn´t we have a right to ask questions.... we know it was true, so the truth will show. I would perfer to have all the facts available and to make an informed decision. This law kind of enters the realm of thought crime which is terribly hard to police especially in a system that is already so corrupt
I don´t think making a law punishable be jail time and fines is the answer, that just causes things to go underground where they fester.
Anyway, for what it´s worth, I think every war is a holocaust.
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10. |
30 May 2009 Sat 01:39 pm |
Alameda, what is more saddening is that common people have been agitated enough to jump on the band wagon of hatred without ever thinking about the consequences. The streets everywhere are full of people who have turned this into a football like fanaticism. Everybody is talking about us and them. It is no surprize that this system keeps eradicating those defending peace and advancement (John Lennon, Kennedy, Bhuttos).
You certainly remember several episodes in our near history when the hopes of peace and brotherhood kept people together. After all those years, we have falcons and neocons running us the Hitler style.
Actually, the mocking cartoons (and the adamant justification/denial is one of the stages towards Genocide....a Holocast....it dehumanizes, mocks and belittles "others"....concentrating on the "otherness"....going down the trail to dehumanization of the "other" group.
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