The Truth Of Iraq´s City Of Deformed Babies

This is nothing new, even after the Gulf War in 1991 the consequences of modern warefare have started to show their tragic and ugly head, due to the US using depleted uranium shells. It is indeed tragic and shameful.

I wonder if you see yourself as some kind of a whistle blower on "evil, bigoted, fascist, Christian West"? Maybe you could use something else than almost 18 year old news?

Tami, I just want to point out how lucky you are to be able to critisize the west so easily.  I am sure if you where going to school in a country like, say, Iran (or Turkey) and you wanted to critisize their government(s), you would probably be in jail by now for insulting Iranianness (or Turkishness)......or whatever crime they see fit.  I applaud your use of your constitutionally protected right to report the news as YOU see fit.  Hope you enjoy it while you can.....because when you go back to Turkey, you will not be able to critisize your government so freely....however, you will still be free to critisize mine. 

I have also noticed that most of the sources you use are western news sources....something else that many eastern news outlets are not able to do....report the truth.  I accept that we are not perfect here in the US....but you must admit we are a decent enough place for you to come and live for a few years and get a good education.  Perhaps if you would, once in a while, report something good about us, I would take your critrical opinions a bit more seriously. 

+100000000000000

I might add that there´s a difference between healthy, constructive criticism (which should always be welcome) and spreading prejudice-based propaganda.

I just find his posts ridiculous, how is this a "christian" crime? He seems to be motivated by religious hatred, nothing else. I could also twist some news and label everything as "muslim crime" if I wanted to. There is not even any grain of reason in his mentality.

yea, what would happen to you if you said that you support al qaida in America? you would land in guantanamo for a very civilized torture session.

yea freedom of speech...

just like what christian invaders are doing?

"I could also twist some news and label everything as "muslim crime" if I wanted to"

ahahhaha, as if you don`t already!

It`s a christian crime because six christian countries invaded a muslim country for no reason other than genociding muslims. even your christian army`s general admitted that calling it a crusade.

Really? Is that the reason? I think you should read more, Tami and finally check what metaphor is, I´ve told you to do it a million times

If you were right then why didn´t they first start getting rid of the Muslims that live in those countries? And why their armies consist of people of many different or none religions? Why do you think that countries that grant their citizens religious freedom suddenly feel the urge to exterminate religious groups in other countries? That´s pretty illogical...

DD, you first said Bush`s calling themsleves crusaders can`t be taken seriously because he is an idiot. I proved you that Bush is not more idiot than any other terrorist leader, and then you immediately change your argument saying that the crusade word is just a metaphor.

That`s just like America`s claiming that Saddam had mass destruction weapons and then when proved wrong saying they invaded Iraq to bring democracy.

You`ve lost all your credibility defending your christian brothers, DD.  I`m not gonna explain the same facts to you over and over again.

I´ll look for links tomorrow to remind you my lesson on metaphor and a lengthy lecture on understanding world´s politics. I´d do that today but it´s 1.00am and I´m sleepy.

And it never ceases to amuse me how you refer to my "Christian brothers" omitting the fact that I am not Christian I know using simplifications like that is easy and easily gets you high but it doesn´t make it true. In the first place,  I never knew I used to be credible to you in the past . Scary!!!

Still, you never answered my questions about what makes you believe that it´s a religious war - the only thing you have to support your theory of conspiracy with is that metaphor of Bush. But if that makes you feel better, go on, believe whatever you want (I´m not even going to convince you that Santa isn´t real - you´ll find a YouTube film with Bush talking about him and will understand it literally).

Oh and one more thing. i think I know where that Christianity obsession of yours is coming from. It must be hard to be in a country that was founded by people who were Christians. It must be painful to live there seeing how successful they are and how they´re making progress ensuring people have a better life. At the same time you see what happens in Muslim countries - most people still live in 7th century, people die when they convert, get clubbed when they drink or killed by family when raped. I understand that your brain cannot comprehend why it is the American (or, for the matter European) culture that can go beyond religion and focus on improving the quality of life, not the case in the Arab countries. So, you choose to forget that the principles that European (and thus American) culture do not come from Christianity. They come from Greek and Roman culture, philosophy, codes and laws. Christianity that started to mean something in Europe in 8-9th century was used as political force uniting nations. Kings would get christened because they wanted to be in a gang with other cool kings. Then the religion brought to Europe by sword and blood (yes, people were reluctant to forget their old gods) started to be a monopolist, which resulted in its institutionalisation, abuse and shock of power. Then we had inquisition. And then some people though it was too much and an anti-religious movement started. If you bothered to read about European countries and the US you will see that their legal systems are not based  on the Bible but on Greek and Roman legal systems.

So, as I said, you may want to simplify things if they´re too much to handle for your brain - you may consider Europe and the USA Christian missionaries but actually they are countries whose laws are not based on Christianity - how could they since even Christians cannot agree on the correct interpretations of Bible. Even most Christian holidays come from pagan times...And all those countries grant religious freedom.

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes. As you´re Turkish you know that you country´s position is specific. You are religiously more Arab than EU but it is the EU that can grant you better life. Yet, knocking on the door that remains closed must feel pretty humiliating so you´d rather pose as full of hate than full of shame. It´s like - I´ll hate them first - sort of game. Plus it´s quite safe,   it´s easier to say - they´re Christians and that´s why they hate Muslims - because in case something goes wrong with your plans you may blame it on a Christian conspiracy that didn´t give  Muslim boy a chance rather than admit being a loser.

what makes you think that muslims blew up the wtc? we all know that it was the very christian american government who did it. if it`s not a war on muslims, why did the christians invade Iraq and genocide one million of muslims instead of invading Thailand and genociding one million of buddhists? what were the genocided Iraqis guilty of other being muslims?

What would you call it if 6 muslim countries invaded a christian county and killed one million of christian. You would call it a christian genocide.  Is it a coincidence that only the christian countries in the 21st century keep invading other countries and is it a coincidence that the countries they invade are always muslim populated?

But we still shouldn`t think that it`s a religious war, right? so that the christians once again can get away with their crimes.

what does being "religously more Arab" mean? "Arab" is not a religion, but if you think it`s, you are also "Arab" to the same degree because your f**king jesus was an Arab.  Still I can`t see how being Arab grants you a worse life or makes you something inferior than the christian nazis .

You once again threw out your sick christian nazist ideas, thanks for proving me right.

DD comes in and restores the order..

Respect  

yeah you show respect only when nazis throw out racist propaganda, right? what should be done to the "Arab subhumans"? is genocide the only solution?

I dont think she is the one who is racist here..

She is DD ..  

DD, you can humiliate muslim countries as much as you can, nothing changes since they are happy with their lives and noone has right to force them change or invade their country, if those were independent countries, it is their business to choose how they want to live not US or EU. Besides i think you havent been to any of Arabic countries, be sure that people in those countries live better than any of you, thanks to petrol, and i assure you that all of those artificial countries supported by US because they are the best slaves and because US richness is also coming from there . I dont know what will happen when petrol finishes ...

Lastly let me remind you, in Turkey the ones who are craving for EU, is the islamists and liberals nowadays not the whole people. In fact if anyone ask them what EU is, they dont care or not much knowlegde about it. It seems the humiliating you described is what you feel when your country Poland was being ruled by socialism

I don´t think there´s anything more sad than people whose basic human rights are violated and who do not know what freedom is and who say they are happy to live in those conditions (and who mean it, never mind those who say it because they have no choice). It´s like birds in golden cages who are happy to be imprisoned and say, look the cage is golden, doesn´t that count for something?

Actually they learned what freedom is from Iraq and Afghanistan where US is still on duty. In fact it seems invading a country makes the situation worse. And of course i agree they should get rid of their puppet leaders that US assigned(that will possibly make them enemy with US btw). Iran was the most dearest ally of US and UK at time of Shah, Tehran was called the Paris of east, then what happened, the regime changed mollas kicked out of the blood suckers from their country, that followed a war between Iraq and Iran where Saddam was supported by US, now they became the first target of west, why? thats because of petrol that they couldnt smell of it anymore.(Note that i do not support those mollas and the way they treat their citizens but i appreciate their truly stand against the US.)

If Arab countries are such a great place to be, how come the migrations flow is to the evil west? The number of evil westerners moving to eastern paradise is not huge to my knowledge. Of course there are people who are well-off in Arab countries, why shouldn´t there be? I´m sure if you compare the number of western migrants in the east to the number of Arab migrants in the west, the numbers will show where people would rather live...

I didn´t intend to depreciate Arabic countries, it was an illegal sarcastic jab at Tami who is the biggest hypocrite on this site and a very angry young man- he hates west, its policies, doesn´t know the basics of our culture or history and thus jumps to conclusions and operates on simplifications and yet he chose to live in the states and benefit from the hatered country.

Tami, what do you mean "we" know it wasn´t Arabs behind WTC? I think you mean "you" know it because I don´t. I do believe that it actually was Arabs but I don´t think it was for religious reasons that they did it. I agree that the evil west is the biggest aggressor in contemporary world and is the greediest invader and self-proclaimed guardian of democracy that nobody needs. But what I can´t agree is that the reason of it is religion. Unless, of course, we consider money to be religion .

 People rather live where money and job is. I am sure most of those eastern do not die to live in your beautiful  countries as most polish in UK or US.

 This is very true actually, like you say people just go where the money is. I don´t know anyone who has moved to Poland, but I know many that have taken jobs and moved to Saudi

Moral of this thread!!

 Someone else here saved you from doing that job already!

There is nothing to defend in Tami´s attitude about these matters and you may be right about his being a young angry man with an unsatiable hatred for the West. Nevertheless, you take him way more seriously than you think. Your answer proves that. You should remember that when you communicate ideas of the sort advocated by the likes of Tami you are indeed contradicting with the way you are positioning yourself. You are bashing Tami for the stereotypes in his mind and respond to him by opening up the doors of your own gallery of stereotypes.

In the below paragraph, you intended to depreciate Arabic countries. It would be a hype to claim otherwise. The following sentences do not only describe Tami but also you in this context. 

We should start by accepting the presence of cultures, religions, thoughts and a huge array of human values other than our own. 

Even if you could climb Mt Everest, you could see just a portion of the world that we are living in. There are worlds within worlds of Sherpas, Indians, Tamils, the Chinese and a myriad of lives full of different sets of realities within them. Anyone living in this world must respect the cultures formed with the consent of the people who made them. This is the essence of peace and understanding. No one has a right to scorn any nation, any race and/or ethnicity. We are all humans, it is just that some of us are more fortunate than the others at this stage in human history.

Interesting line of reasoning. So are you suggesting that as people we should respect those practices in cultures that are abhorrent as well? For example stoning women for being raped? What if a culture has a practice of sacrificing a virgin on the first Monday of every month to some other version of imaginary god? What if a child is being made to walk to dead carcasses of animals to prove she´s an incarnation of some Indian god (true story)? Should we respect that too? Are we to say, oh it´s just their culture, it´s done with their consent, so that´s ok?

I´m sorry Vineyards but I cannot agree with you here. Yes, we should respect other cultures and people´s choices to live a certain way. But to a point. When those choices violate human right and its dignity, as human beings we should speak out against it. People are not objects in an ethnographic museum for us to marvel at how "they do it", they are human beings who suffer. Or is suffering ok as long as it´s "them"? I think we have a moral obligation to speak out against abuse, no matter how culturally sanctioned it is.

 Vineyards has a good point - all your points above prove is that there is cruelty and inhumanity in life.  I can think of some stomach churning examples of child abuse, neglect, torture, murder, cruelty in the west which are a direct result of our "culture".  I presume you also have a moral obligation to speak out about this abuse too?  Like it or not, the break down of the traditional "family" in western society is producing feral, psychopathic children.

I would like you to focus on the word "consent" and also the way society is described as common work of people. This is the basis of all modern-day nations. Laws are made around the principle of people´s consent to coercion by government for the benefit and welfare of society.  There are also regimes not fitting into this definition e.g. dictatorships, olligarchies and other oppressive regimes where people´s choices are ignored. In other words, we must respect the freedom of choice.

Hitler considered his race superior to others. He scorned the Jews and wanted to eradicate them from Europe. He considered them as subhuman creatures contaminating the noble German race and sucking their blood through their collective organizations. His view represents the epitome of the xenophobic European conservatism which is itself based on the Greek notion that viewed other races as barbarians. In between there were episodes of slavery, colonism, cultural imperialism, sectarian wars, crusades, religious bigotry and the cold war era. If you draw a line through them, you will find those were the products of the same standpoint: us and them.

On the Eastern front too, there are nationalist movements, their leaders, grey wolves, pan-Turanists and jihad fighters to name just a few.

The driving force behind them are the stereotypes I mentioned.

Of course there´s examples of crualty and inhumanity in life everywhere (and yes we should speak against those abuses too), the difference lies in whether they are culturally sanctioned. As an example I don´t know of anybody who thinks that domestic violence is ok in the States, even though it does happen all too often. A woman has resources to turn to if that doesn´t happen (police, shelters, domestic violence hotlines, etc). The law is on her side. Anybody who hears about it will condemn the abuser - it is the abuser that is seen as one having a problem. Not the case in many countries where it´s the husbands "right" to hit the wife (or even kill her) and even the wife´s family ´wouldn´t intervene, not to mention the law. In the States the law steps in when the "culture" becomes abusive - recent case of the family who refused medical treatment for the child with cancer is a good example - the parents don´t have the right to have their beliefs respected when those beliefs are harmful, no matter how well intentioned they are. (Disclaimer: I´m not saying US should be the model for other countries to follow, I´m just using as a familiar example it to illustrate the point).

And of course Vineyards has a good point, all I´m saying is that his good point is not absolute, and there´s a point where respect for some cultural practices should end.

Do you have any statistics or studies to back up your claim about feral, psychopatic children?

Sorry, all too often the consent means only the consent of the male part of the populatin or the consent of majority (ethnic, religious, etc.) All to many times people don´t have a choice as to which culture they were born into and have to live in and don´t have the power to change their situation.

Melek, we are talking about the general aspects of society. There is no society on Earth where problems about choice have been completely solved. There is a certain interaction between coercion and people. Demands evolve within society and they are answered by way of laws, regulations and a new order is established by  the gradual  change of  mentality. If one individual is not aware of or does not have a need for a certain freedom which is considered necessary elsewhere, this would not be the problem of the system or the regime.

Just look at the world outside by remembering the conditions majority of people are in. If you want a feminist movement in Saudi Arabia which even in my book is nowhere near a true democracy, you should be able to create demand for sexual equality among Saudi women majority of whom essentially believe in the necessity of a male run society.  In Iran and Afghanistan too, women are oppressed by militia. Nevertheless, these are not democracies. Turkey is a democracy. There are laws like the Civil Code which was modeled around the Swiss Civil Code and the Penal Code that follows the outlines of the French one. Though not comperable to aforementioned countries, no gender discrimination is allowed in this country. A sizeable portion of society however are subjected to rules other than those decided by the Parliament. My Kurdish friends tell me, their family council would gather and decide on a honor killing should even a wire of his sister´s or mother´s hair is seen  by a stranger or should there be a rumour about her whether true or not. There are also feuds continuing for years. There is no way that such primitive traditions can be tolerated. I have written about those earlier. Nonetheless, it is not possible to correct them overnight by passing a certain law or by enforcing it. You need to play with the internal dynamics of that community and gain their consent. Since consent is always the keyword in all these matters.

 Not readily collated to hand no.  If you would like to forward payment I would be very happy and interested to prepare a thesis on this subject though

What is easily accessible to even the most inexperienced of googlers are statistics which show the increase in crimes involving children under 12,together with the medical evidence produced in court cases involving crimes committed by children involving torture/killing of animals/murder which show the children to have psychopathic traits.

Whilst I realise my comment about single parents is very un-PC, the fact remains that it is a factor.  Below is an extract from a book that may interest you:-

“The circumstances of children involved in child protection processes in Britain are different…from the majority of children.  Although there is a rise (generally) in the number of lone parent families, abused and neglected children are far more likely to be with one parent than the norm.  So whilst 73% of children in the UK live with both parents and 8% in reconstituted families, only 38% of those involved in the children protection process live with both parents” Ryal & Little, 2000

From Neglected Children and Their Families by Olive Stevenson

Olive Stevenson is Professor Emeritus of Social Work at the University of Nottingham where she holds a continuing contract for supervision of research. She is a pioneering figure in social work and holds honorary degrees from the Universities of East Anglia and Kingston. She is an honorary Professor at the Hong Kong Poly- university and at Kingston University. She was awarded the CBE in 1994. She has chaired five Area Child Protection Committees and currently acts as consultant to individuals and voluntary organisations and adviser to projects in the field of child protection and fostering.

Vineyards, I´m responding to your post where you are stating that we have to respect other cultures. This is what I am disagreeing with to an extent. Yes, we have to respect people´s choices, but we don´t have to respect all of them.

I´ll give you one more example to illustrate one more time what I mean and then I have to change the oil in my car lol.

Burqas - to me it´s a symbol of opression of subjegation of women. It might very well be that my perception of this is driven by my growing up in the West and influenced by Western values. I can however respect an individual´s choice to dress how they want to. If women feel strongly about being clad in burqas then it´s their choice and I can respect the choice itself. However for many women it is not a choice. It is a practice that is culturally sanctioned and forced on women and if they don´t comply the consequences may be gruesome. That aspect I don´t have to respect and I do not respect as a matter of fact. I´m not going to pretend I respect something when I feel its intrinsincly abusive and discriminatory. Im not giong to just say: "We are all humans, it is just that some of us are more fortunate than the others at this stage in human history." Oh well, right? What should I care if some women in a remote part of the world are forced to hide behind a sheet? It´s not me who has to do that, so I should just respect that because it´s their culture? Right? Well, this is what I don´t agree with - as a woman and as a human being. Same in the West, I can respect one´s right to have religious beliefs (for example Christians) but if those beliefs are causing suffering and discrimination (for example againt gay people) then I don´t have to respect that, do I?

I guess I´ll have to agree to disagree with you. I respect your right to a different opinion, but I don´t have to agree with it. 

 100% agree with this

Thanks for the book recommendation, it might be something worthwhile to research further.

Personally I haven´t heard of any correlation between the structure of the family (single vs. married parents) and the abuse of children (most statistics I am familiar with point to alcohol/drug abuse, parents being abused themselves in the childhood, education level, poverty, etc.), however, as shocking as it is, I don´t know everything and it might be something I need to read more about.

 Me too - that is why I like discussions with you - you are taxing my brain and forcing me to research!  It is better than just sitting at my desk playing solitaire and waiting until I can go home at 5pm

I do agree with you in generic terms

But I also want to add that I think there is a generic mistake people keep making here...

´Criticism does not mean you disrespect the people´..(I am not talking about the posts like  ´you menstruating Christian bitc.es, this is genocide blockheads etc´ or the people who think that type of post a kind of criticism)

But since the cultures are the shared  attitudes, values, goals, and the characteristics of peoples formations, they will be criticized. Same thing goes with  the belief systems too..Of course, any religion will be criticized too ..

Why is it necessary to criticize?

Excuse me but the criticism is a necessity for human beings!!

Nothing changes without criticism..

Think about it..just a simple example: If nobody criticized burning Jews in the middle ages, we would still be burning them..

We criticize, because the current truth or the way bothers us; because we think it is not how it should be..We criticize because we care about the things..

Criticism is the fuel for social evolution of human beings..

People who are trying to stop criticism of the cultures are simply making no good at all to the culture they are trying to protect.

But that does not mean you are disrespecting the people who lives in that culture..

Actually, it is true that children from single parent homes are statistically more prone to high-risk behavior, including teenage sex and pregnancies, as well as commiting crime. It is not because there is only one parent, but because those families have less supervision (mother is the only provider, and there may be nobody to look after the kid in teh meantime), less stability (maybe mom has partners that change periodically), etc..

Yes, exactly. People deserve respect, it´s not their choice what culture they were born in, and it´s not their fault that they were raised with one set of rules and not another. However, the culture and values do not deserve unconditional respect at all. In fact, we must criticize them so that the living conditions for people improve.

I agree with this sentence, however....... can´t you blame people for NOT changing (trying to) it? I don´t mean (illiterate) people somewhere far away from any help-source but e.g. educated people in countries where female circumsion is ´normal´ practice? Can´t you blame them for keeping everything the way it was? I don´t think so.

I don´t think it´s so easy. You can imagine a person coming from Saudi Arabia and trying to convince you that their way of living is better and you should change, and since you were informed of the "better" option, you are now to be held accountable for your "wrong" choice...

I think that it´s good to work towards equality and empowerment of women around the world, and let them make changes in their communities. These things have to come from within.

Of course economy is the key reason of migration but why then people hating the western lifestyle so much move to live there instead of finding the peace in SA or other wealthy Arab States?