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Minaret ban ´wins Swiss support´
(61 Messages in 7 pages - View all)
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30.       armegon
1872 posts
 04 Dec 2009 Fri 12:35 am

It seems you again managed to divert the thread to TCK 301{#emotions_dlg.rolleyes}.  We have also similar laws that punishes insulting symbols, amblems, flags and president of foreign nations. Why does not anyone want it to be abolished as well? EU missed those i think . As far as i remember Turkish Minister of Justice  once exampled convictions because of similar laws like 301 in other countries...

31.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Dec 2009 Fri 02:35 am

When they passed a law banning crosses on the walls of schools in Italy, it resulted in a protest and those classrooms that hadn´t had crosses pinned up yet, did so Analogically, all Muslims in Switzerland should protest by building minarets in their houses. How cool does that sound? lol

 

(Sorry for making light of this thread but these bans are just absurd! Could it be that we´ve already reached the peak of tolerance and are now just bouncing back? That´s definitely not the world I´d like to live in! Let´s not make a European version of Saudi or I´ll have to emigrate somewhere less restrictive. Antarctica? {#emotions_dlg.scared} I hate cold!!!)

32.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Dec 2009 Fri 09:23 am

True but one needs to sit on the tip of an iceberg to be able to say that. Follow this reasoning:

 

- determine what is good and what is bad for the world

- establish institutions, rules and regulation to enforce it

- define what tolerance is and how much of it is healthy

- take financial and military action against those outside the circle

- and finally, question whether too much tolerance has been shown

 

I guess everyone else in Europe is already thinking along these lines. In my opinion, Europe is not the center of tolerance. On the contrary, Europe is the stronghold of a certain type of conservatism.  

 

 

Quoting Daydreamer

.....Could it be that we´ve already reached the peak of tolerance and are now just bouncing back? That´s definitely not the world I´d like to live in! Let´s not make a European version of Saudi or I´ll have to emigrate somewhere less restrictive. Antarctica? {#emotions_dlg.scared} I hate cold!!!)

 

 

33.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Dec 2009 Fri 11:39 am

That´s a good point Vineyards. The problem lies in the fact that establishing what´s best for the world is not something that can be easily defined. Values and traditions differ worldwide so it´s next to impossible to come up with a solution to satisfy all. Religious people will always argue it´s their religion, whichever it is, that should be the moral point of reference while non-religious people will argue otherwise. Furthermore, once a compromised world order is established, everyone outside the circle will be perceived as a threat to the values. Then the right of might takes place and the mightier side´s norms are imposed on the rest.

 

Europe, let alone the US, are perfect examples. On the one hand, they emphasise their internal  cultural differenciation, on the other, unless the minorities sit quietly and play according to the majority´s rules, they are demanded to change and accept the rules.

 

Having said that, I still think that minorities have more rights in Europe and the US than those outside it. It might be because of the number of immigrants, though.

34.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Dec 2009 Fri 02:32 pm

Why would there be so many immigrants in Europe and US? There is no denying part of the incentive comes from the fact that those are wealth states and they advertise this point thanks to their being a center for mass media productions. A poor young man living in Kenya would not care a bit if American media did not target him giving him the idea that the US is a country of dreams, it is a place where dreams are fulfilled. This point is knowingly and strategically emphasized by the American propoganda machine. The ultimate purpose here is to create a pro-US sentiment in the third world countries. It is through this way that the US has that abnormal weight in the world´s economic and political scenes.

 

The Kenyan boy could ask you this question, how come the US and Europe have all these brands operating over here and everywhere? Who is the winning side in this equation? That guy will pay the US interest, profit and all sorts of other fees. He is free to love the US but he is not allowed to touch.

 

The punch line is, if you fly your flag all around the world, getting into financial, cultural, political relationships of all sorts, you end up with the migration problem.

 

The same thing happened to all the great empires including our own...

 

uoting Daydreamer

Having said that, I still think that minorities have more rights in Europe and the US than those outside it. It might be because of the number of immigrants, though.

 

 



Edited (12/4/2009) by vineyards

35.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Dec 2009 Fri 10:37 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

Why would there be so many immigrants in Europe and US?

(...)

The punch line is, if you fly your flag all around the world, getting into financial, cultural, political relationships of all sorts, you end up with the migration problem.

 

 

 

 

 

I think you covered the answer here. However it´s not the question of why there are so many immigrants here, but rather who should change their lifestyle. Should it be the host countries or maybe the immigrants, in the situations where compromise can´t be reached.

 

It´s easy to criticise the other side, regardless of whether you´re an immigrant or the person whose country is appealing immigrationwise. Immigrants criticise their new countries (that they have deliberately chosen) for not allowing their traditions or lifestyle. And they have a fair point, why should they not be able to practise their religion and traditions? The new countries, however, deal with immigrants from all kinds of states and it´s impossible to ensure everyone the rights that they ask for. That´s why I´m not surprised some aspects of the immigrants´ culture are not accepted. Let me just bring back the issue of burka(or niqab) and burkini - due to hygienic and safety regulations they´re not allowed in some places. Like it or not, but that´s how it is.

 

But, back on the subject, it´s easy to criticise west for how it´s treating eastern citizens while we lack the comparison. I mean, the number of westerners emigrating east is incomparably smaller than the other way around. Hypothetically, imagine that there are as many western immigrants in the east as there are eastern immigrants in the west. Do you expect the eastern countries suddenly changing their rules to cater for the western idea of freedom? Allowing alcohol, more revealing clothes, being constantly criticised from within? I don´t think so...

36.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Dec 2009 Fri 11:16 pm

You could ask say LIR about this. As far as I know she lives in Turkey. It would be curious to know whether anyone in this country has ever questioned what she wore, what she thought and how she acted. I bet she enjoys complete freedom here. I have friends from the US or the Britain who live in Istanbul. They form their own groups and socialize themselves just as they would back home. Some of them don´t even speak Turkish although they are employed here.

 

But then we do not even refer to these people as immigrants nor do we expect them to comply...

 

At any given time, I believe there are more people from West thant there from East. They have the freedom to travel relentlessly. They are welcome to settle down wherever they wish but they naturally prefer to be where the money is.

 

Quoting Daydreamer

But, back on the subject, it´s easy to criticise west for how it´s treating eastern citizens while we lack the comparison. I mean, the number of westerners emigrating east is incomparably smaller than the other way around. Hypothetically, imagine that there are as many western immigrants in the east as there are eastern immigrants in the west. Do you expect the eastern countries suddenly changing their rules to cater for the western idea of freedom? Allowing alcohol, more revealing clothes, being constantly criticised from within? I don´t think so...

 

 

37.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 05 Dec 2009 Sat 01:10 am

I think you missed my point, Vineyards. I´m not talking about tourists who are gladly accepted as a general rule. I´m talking about a huge, regular flow of immigration.

 

Of course there are immigrants in every country, but I doubt the number of people in their productive age coming to live and work is comparable in the west and east. And I don´t mean highly-skilled management people and engineers, I´m talking about people with basic education, limited knowledge of the language and unwillingness to assimilate. In other words, people who chose a country to live in but want it to be like it was in their homeland but for the economic situation.

 

I´m not saying that immigration is a bad thing, I am an immigrant myself, but one needs to be aware of the fact that they´ll have to adapt to new conditions, new rules and new situation. Coming to a new country, you know what you can expect, what laws are there and so on. So why choose to go somewhere you can´t adjust to?

 

I know Turkey is very welcoming, you deal a lot with tourists, but what is accepted in Turkey would not necessarily be accepted in Syria, Arab Emirates or Saudi.

 

My point is not that the east is bad and intolerant and the west is great and full of love. Of course not! I´m merely trying to point out that the west has a more difficult task dealing with immigration. Sometimes absurd situations arise when in a predominantly catholic country, you can´t put up a Christmas show with traditional Christmas carols because people of other beliefs (or none) might consider it insulting or insensitive of their religious feelings. I don´t think people in Muslim countries would enjoy being forced to eating during Ramadan so that their non-Muslim colleagues are not offended by being left alone at lunchtime.

 

Some ways of accomodating for other people´s beliefs are ridiculous - like the ban on Christmas carols, some are ridiculous in the exactly opposing manner - like the ban on minarets. It is difficult to find balance in a society that varied culturally, religiously and ethnically.

 



Edited (12/5/2009) by Daydreamer [one "s" too many]

38.       Rocco Siffredi
60 posts
 05 Dec 2009 Sat 03:11 am

Why the crappy Polish users in this site are good at digressing the topic? Could somebody tell me about it?

39.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 05 Dec 2009 Sat 04:44 pm

narrow minded Switzerland

 

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/12/2009124171829382892.html

40.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 05 Dec 2009 Sat 09:20 pm

Something interesting for those who said Turkish people were being discriminated with visa´s... A friend of mine is getting a visa for Holland, a semi-permanent one, so we checked for prices...For everybody applying for this is more then 250 euro´s....for everybody except for the Turks! For the Turkish people it´s...hold your breath.... 41 euro! More then 200 euro cheaper.

 

Oh my GOD! Discrimination!!!

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