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Human Trafficking
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1.       alameda
3499 posts
 16 Dec 2009 Wed 11:01 pm

The other day when I was parking my car, I saw three young "ladies" on the corner of my block.  They were very young....I´d say they could have been 14  to 16 years old, maybe more.  They were dressed like little ladies of the night, and their actions weren´t much better,(shaking their bottoms at passing cars). Of courseI was very annoyed with this.  I really don´t want my block to have men driving by and picking up "ladies"....and going who knows where.  I sat in my car and watched them for a while, finally a someone they know with a car came and they all left in it.

 

This got me thinking about my response, and the situation of sex workers in general.  Who were these girls, what were they doing?  What could/should I have done?

 

CAST Report a Crime

 

Here is a video with statistics on the issue....most the numbers are from the US.  You have to sign in to see it.  It is very shocking video, be warned!

 

Human Trafficking video

 

Of course, not all trafficked people are in the sex trade, some make our garments, food, clean homes and a wide assortment of other activities, but most are in the sex trade.

 

What peverse person would want to indulge in this in any way?  ............reality of the situation....most of us are happy to get the "good" deals, cheap cloths, cheap goods. Nothing for nothing is a good rule to remember. All payment isn´t monetary.  The hardening of your heart is part of the price as well.  The one who dehumanizes becomes inhumane.

 

This organization seems pretty good....

 

CAST

 

Statistics

International

 •    An estimated 27 million people are enslaved around the world today – that’s more than the population of 18 States – or more than the population of New York and Virginia combined.


 
•    There are anywhere between 600,000 and 800,000 victims trafficked through international borders every year, which does not include the millions trafficked domestically within their own countries.  


•    It is the fastest growing criminal enterprise in the 21st century – a nine billion dollar industry.  

•    Trafficking ranks second, after drug smuggling and tying with arms dealing, in organized crime activities.


•    According to the 2008 Trafficking in Persons (TIP) Report, human trafficking is a multi-dimensional threat; it deprives people of their human rights and freedoms, it increases global health risks, and it fuels the growth of organized crime.

•    The majority of victims of slavery are women and children – traffickers prey on those who suffer most from macro factors like gender discrimination, family violence, and a lack of access to education and economic opportunity.

•    Although women and children make up a majority of trafficking victims, there has been an increase in the victimization of men as well.  Eleven percent of the victims CAST is serving are male.

 

National (USA)

 

•    According to CIA estimates, as many as 50,000 men, women and children are trafficked into The United States every year.  


•    The United States is one of the top three destination points for trafficked victims, along with Japan and Australia.  California, New York, Texas and Nevada are the top destination states in the country.

•    States such as California, Florida, New York, Nevada and Ohio are particularly vulnerable to human trafficking because of factors such as: proximity to international borders, number of ports and airports, significant immigrant population, and large economy that includes industries that attract forced labor.

•    Slavery and trafficking are not only limited to these states and can be found everywhere.  At the beginning of 2009, incidences of potential human trafficking were identified all over the country, including Ohio, Iowa, Washington, Florida, New York, Texas and Hawaii.

•    Los Angeles is one of the top three points of entry into this country for victims of slavery and trafficking. The diverse communities of this sprawling city make it easier to hide and move victims from place to place, making it very difficult for law enforcement to locate potential survivors.

•    Immigration agents estimate that 10,000 women are being held in Los Angeles´ underground brothels; this does not include the thousands of victims in domestic work, sweatshops or other informal industries.

•    Law enforcement in Las Vegas believes that trafficking and slavery in the “Sin City” has increased because of advertisements that encourage people to “sin all they can” while in Vegas – without anyone needing to find out.



Edited (12/16/2009) by alameda [add]

2.       catwoman
8933 posts
 17 Dec 2009 Thu 05:37 am

Thanks Alameda for this post.. my heart sinks when I see such things - not only when it´s related to sexual exploitation, but any exploitation and injustice.

The issue of human trafficking seems to me to be very much part of the general trend in which the west does "business" with underdeveloped, poor countries. Poor people are exploited in a huge variety of ways so that the westerners can have all that they can think of for cheap prices, without ever thinking about what it took to make the various products. 

 

However, obviously human trafficking is another level lower in this system. Truth is that people in the west are very much controlled with various forms of propaganda so that some people at the top can keep their fat profits. That is why pornographers are so powerful and any dissent is quickly squandered. They have all the support of other hugely profitable industries that are based on all kinds of inhumane principles... And since money rules, and there´s no real democracy, it´s hard to make any change.

 

I think that if there was any real democracy, the numbers you have quoted should be outraging enough to make people act.

3.       alameda
3499 posts
 17 Dec 2009 Thu 07:43 am

 

Quoting catwoman

Thanks Alameda for this post.. my heart sinks when I see such things - not only when it´s related to sexual exploitation, but any exploitation and injustice.

 

The issue of human trafficking seems to me to be very much part of the general trend in which the west does "business" with underdeveloped, poor countries. Poor people are exploited in a huge variety of ways so that the westerners can have all that they can think of for cheap prices, without ever thinking about what it took to make the various products.

 

Yes, I think we are numb to the reality of the situation. We think slavery ended, but, as we can clearly see, it is not over.......it goes on and on. 

 

There is no way a fair wage is being paid for a large percentage of what is sold in the US............we have all read the stories.....the constant search for cheap products....cheap labour.

 

Do the many people who love Walmart, ask why are those things so cheap?  People think paying $1,500 or $2,000. is a lot to pay for a Armani jacket....it isn´t.  That is just a fair price for the labor involved.  How many would pay that? 

 

When it´s cheap, ask yourself why? We need to look at where our things come from, what was the process in getting it to us?  We wouldn´t be in the situation we are in with global warmng, destruction of habitate, extinction of creatures if we thought about those issues.

 

The ultimate responsibility is in us.  How much are those things really worth to us, what do we really "need" to have a fufilled and meaningful life.

 

 



Edited (12/17/2009) by alameda [add]

4.       Pita
27 posts
 20 Dec 2009 Sun 10:49 am

western world is not the only place to blame for abuse of people seems to me it has been done for thousand of years when I study history and concubines and harems etc... And to be honest as far as children being exploited for child labor one has to ask who sold the child to this in the first place where are the parents???

 

Contrary to the old cliché, prostitution is almost certainly not the world´s oldest profession--that would be hunting and gathering, perhaps followed by subsistence farming--but it has been found in nearly every civilization on Earth stretching back throughout all recorded human history. We can say with some confidence that wherever there have been money, goods, or services to be bartered, somebody has bartered them for sex.

 

Turkey is one the most popular destinations in Europe for trafficked women from Ukraine and Russia. (Vladmir Isachenkov, "Soviet Women Slavery Flourishes " Associated Press, 6 November 1997)

Prostitutes are now commonly referred to as "Natashas" because so many come from Russia. ("´Invisible´ Women Shown In Russia´s Demographics," Martina Vandenberg, St. Petersburg Times, 13 October 1997)

Prostitute population

Ankara Chamber of Commerce (ATO) report(2004)[5]
Item  ↓ census data  ↓
The number of prostitutes 100,000
prostitutes are registered in 56 brothels operating 3,000
prostitutes registered with the police 15,000
women waiting to get licenses 30,000
age of prostitution between 15 and 40
annual turnover $3–4 billion

 

Prostitution in Korea takes on several faces including the massage parlours, barber shops, bars, brothels, room salons, juicy bars, turkish baths, strip clubs, etc, spread throughout the country. The job is moderately lucrative. According to a recent poll, 80% of women working in the entertainment industry in korea make between 3 and 5 million wons per month net income (3180$US - 5300$US per month), 7% make in excess of 5 million wons, and 13% make less than 3 million wons. The average salary of prostitutes is comparable to the one of korean engineers with 10+ year seniority or professors at public universities. According to the Korean Institute of Criminology, 20 percent of adult males aged between 20-64 purchase sex 4.5 times per month, spending a sum that breaks down to 154,000 wons (165$US) for each visit.

 

Prostitution in Germany is legal, and so are brothels.[1] In 2002, the government changed the law in an effort to improve the legal situation of prostitutes. However, the social stigmatization of prostitutes persists, forcing most prostitutes to lead a double life. Authorities consider the common exploitation of women from Eastern Europe to be the main problem associated with the occupation.

 

 

 

A survey conducted by Indian Health Organization of a red light area of Bombay shows:-

1. 20% of the one lakh prostitutes are children.
2. 25% of the child prostitutes had been abducted and sold.
3. 6% had been raped and sold.
4. 8% had been sold by their fathers after forcing them into incestuous relationships.
5. 2 lakh minor girls between ages 9yrs-20yrs were brought every year from Nepal to India and 20,000 of them are in Bombay brothels.
6. 15% to 18% are adolescents between 13 yrs and 18 yrs.
7. 15% of the women in prostitution have been sold by their husbands
8. Of 200m suffering from sexually transmitted diseases in the world 50m alone were in India.
9. 15% of them are devdasis

 IRAN

Even in IRAN
The 1925 Penal Code stated that prostitution was not a crime in itself, but that it was a crime to advocate it, to aid or abet a woman to enter prostitution or to operate a brothel. The current regime believes that execution - by firing squad or stoning - is a more fitting penalty. Execution is common. Some Iranian feminists regard mutïa, a form of temporary marriage where the woman has few rights, as akin to prostitution . Under mutïa, it is possible to be `married for as little as half an hour. Men who visit prostitutes simply marry them for a few hours and its totally legal in Iran.

Thailand
 Thailand has a very similar situation and has been known since the Vietnam war days as one of the best places in the world to go for great sexuality. For centuries brothels have just been an accepted part of the culture. Most Thai men got their first sexual education and experience in the local brothel. When sexwork became so popular when the U.S. military enjoyed their rest and relaxation stops in ports, for public relations purposes, Thailand made it officially illegal due to Western pressure, but the Entertainment Places Act and "special services" exempted most all of the sexwork for the military or tourists since it brings in so much cash. Consenting adult prostitution is illegal only officially in Thailand, not in practice.

The Philippines

The Philippines is a good Asian example, Technically prostitution is illegal but when it had U.S. military bases there was such a huge demand by U.S. military men for sex, it flourished. But to be politically correct, bargirls are "Customer Relations officers". They are required to have weekly STD checkups and quarterly HIV tests! But officially there are no barfines or sexworkers, just Guest Relationship Officers who are bargirls that have to carry government issued ID badges. Sexwork is an very big industry and supports many people especially in smaller cities like Angeles. Unless it involves children there is no enforcement and no legal risk for the bargirls or their customers. It´s just like secondary wives in much of Asia. It is simply accepted but often not publicly acknowledged.

And for $20-$30 barfine and maybe a $10 tip you have a very attractive happy bargirl who enthusiastically goes to your hotel for the night and is very happy with the arrangement. But that $40 cost in PI is equivalent to perhaps $400 in purchasing value in the U.S. since food, housing and all living costs are so much higher. So it is unfair to compare rates of American providers, living here with Asian providers. On the other hand it makes the travel costs very worthwhile, not only in cost but in attitudes of Asian vs. U.S. providers without worry about legal problems.

New Zealand

The Prostitution Reform Act 2003  made ALL adult prostitution and brothels a legal occupation in New Zealand but may have too many restrictions on brothels. In fact the government has online their "Brothel Operator Certificates." There are reasonable health and safety requirements such as using condoms, local bylaws can restrict signage and brothel locations, and a provision to outlaw pimping.

 

Brazil - Legal except brothels and pimping. In 2002 the Ministry of Labor added "sex worker" to an official list of occupations. Prostitution is not regulated in any way  (no licensing) but prostitutes can contribute can contribute to the official government pension fund and receive benefits when they retire. (Source Wikipedeia)

 

 

 

these are not the only places i found it everywhere the west, asia, middle east



Edited (12/20/2009) by Pita

5.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Dec 2009 Mon 12:19 am

Generally I would enter such a discussion by stating that slavery, human trafficking and prostitution are not the same, but we would start the same discussions about this topic we had over and over again so I decided not to enter this discussion

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6.       alameda
3499 posts
 21 Dec 2009 Mon 02:33 am

 

Quoting Deli_kizin

Generally I would enter such a discussion by stating that slavery, human trafficking and prostitution are not the same, ....................

 

I agree 100%, and may add that to paint them with the same brush does little but to diminish and  digress from the issues.

 

Trafficked humans are humans who can not benefit from their efforts, they have no choice in what they do, where they go, who they know.   Others profit from their work.  It can be picking lettuce, cleaning house, working in a garment factory, or being exploited as a sex worker.  Not all trafficked humans are used as sex workers, although many are.  IOW trafficked humans are used as a cheap expendable resource.

7.       Pita
27 posts
 24 Dec 2009 Thu 01:40 am

a few  things to say

one if children( manual labor ) are being used in the work force  one has to ask who is responsible for this - the child - the manufacturing company - the parents of the child or lastly the person who bought the product

and yes  there are many uneducated people who are working in low paying wage jobs and again I ask who do you blame the person who bought the item ( which kept the person in a job so that they can feed themselves) the company who pays them low wages i order to compete  or the goverment of that particular country for allowing those particular companies to operate there so that they can use underpaid workers

let me know and maybe we can solve this all

 



Edited (12/24/2009) by Pita

8.       ReyhanL
1961 posts
 24 Dec 2009 Thu 12:06 pm

Why nobody said here about prostitution in Turkey ? Nobody!

9.       alameda
3499 posts
 24 Dec 2009 Thu 07:03 pm

Maybe because this thread is not about prostitution, but human trafficking?  The two are not synonymous.

 

Quoting ReyhanL

Why nobody said here about prostitution in Turkey ? Nobody!

 

 

10.       alameda
3499 posts
 24 Dec 2009 Thu 07:18 pm

 

Quoting Pita

a few  things to say

one if children( manual labor ) are being used in the work force  one has to ask who is responsible for this - the child - the manufacturing company - the parents of the child or lastly the person who bought the product

 

Certainly not the child.  Who owns the manufacturing company?  IOW who determines the labour practices?  I think the ultimate responsibility is with the one who bought the product. Isn´t it our responsibility to know where the products we consume come from? In many places the one who steals and the one who buys stolen property share guilt.....then there is posession of stolen property.

 

and yes  there are many uneducated people who are working in low paying wage jobs and again I ask who do you blame the person who bought the item ( which kept the person in a job so that they can feed themselves) the company who pays them low wages i order to compete  or the goverment of that particular country for allowing those particular companies to operate there so that they can use underpaid workers

let me know and maybe we can solve this all

 

Yes, it is complicated....but the ultimate power is in the hands of the one who purchases the goods. No customer, no product.  Maybe we need to rethink what we need? Maybe we have become so distant from the production of goods that we have no way to evaluate the true value?



 

11.       ReyhanL
1961 posts
 25 Dec 2009 Fri 12:33 pm

 

Quoting alameda

Maybe because this thread is not about prostitution, but human trafficking?  The two are not synonymous.

 

 

 

 

 Ok then:  Why nobody said here about human trafficking in Turkey ? Nobody!

 

12.       ptaszek
440 posts
 26 Dec 2009 Sat 12:29 am

 

Quoting ReyhanL

 

 

 Ok then:  Why nobody said here about human trafficking in Turkey ? Nobody!

 

 

 hadi.....hadi.....sizin için bekliyoruz{#emotions_dlg.scared}

13.       catwoman
8933 posts
 26 Dec 2009 Sat 05:09 am

 

Quoting alameda

 

Certainly not the child.  Who owns the manufacturing company?  IOW who determines the labour practices?  I think the ultimate responsibility is with the one who bought the product. Isn´t it our responsibility to know where the products we consume come from? In many places the one who steals and the one who buys stolen property share guilt.....then there is posession of stolen property.

 

I have to disagree with you here. If we´re talking about "ultimate" responsibility, then it´s the system, especially when we´re talking about democratically elected governments and democratic countries. The direct responsibility belongs to the businesses who have immoral practices, especially abroad, where they try to avoid an oversight. Consumers have the least power through their purchases if we´re talking about goods of daily living, although quite a huge responsibility when it comes to purchasing people/sex.

14.       alameda
3499 posts
 26 Dec 2009 Sat 09:13 am

 

Quoting catwoman

I have to disagree with you here. If we´re talking about "ultimate" responsibility, then it´s the system, especially when we´re talking about democratically elected governments and democratic countries. The direct responsibility belongs to the businesses who have immoral practices, especially abroad, where they try to avoid an oversight. Consumers have the least power through their purchases if we´re talking about goods of daily living, although quite a huge responsibility when it comes to purchasing people/sex.

 

You do have a point, but those businesses depend on customers.  No customers, no business.  Of course, billions are spent on public relations, marketing and such to instill desire in the potential customers, many of whom have been convinced they really need these items.   In fact, many of the same items have become artificial needs.  Think white collar workers costume, the office blazer..and so on. Nails "need" to be manicured, hair needs to be "done".  One needs certain gadgets........we jam our feet into absurd devices and convince ourselves they are beautiful and we "need" them.  We can hardly even walk in many of these fashionable and very expensive shoes, our hands are not of much functional use when we actually try to walk or G-d forbid, run in them!

 

We succumb to peer pressure, even as adults.  You are right in many respects, but I still contend we still have a duty to question where the goods we consume come from, and under what conditions they were cultivated, processed and presented to us as desirable necessary commodoties. 



Edited (12/26/2009) by alameda [add]

15.       alameda
3499 posts
 26 Dec 2009 Sat 11:47 pm

 

Quoting ReyhanL

 

 

 Ok then:  Why nobody said here about human trafficking in Turkey ? Nobody!

 

 

However due to the fact that this is not a discussion about specific countries, but rather, a process that is international is scope, Turkey does not fit as the primary destination. Trafficked humans may pass through Turkey, as they pass through a lot of places....but they end up....and the products they produce end up where they garner the most profit, that place will be where ever there are disposable finances.... to afford luxuries.....Humans are trafficked for two reasons, to exploit their labour or to exploit their bodies. 

 

Actually if you read with more attention, you would have noticed post #4 in this thread, by Pita did mention Turkey.



Edited (12/26/2009) by alameda [clarify]
Edited (12/26/2009) by alameda

16.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 27 Dec 2009 Sun 02:27 pm

I love it when people say "the system" or "the government" or "the companies" like these are living breathing things, that we have no control over. If we are talking about ultimately... these are all humans! WE are the people who elect the governments (in democratic countries)...if we elect people we send a message of what we find important. In the end, most people find their own bank account, or their own way of living and their own luxuries the most important. The companies are us too. We make choices to work for certain companies, to do certain jobs, and also to buy certain products thus creating the need for products and serves that other humans provide.

 

It is so easy to say "goverment this" "companies that" but in the end, we all have a responsibility. I made the choice to buy a very cheap pair of shoes the other day. I have no idea where these came from. Often I check where my products came from, to make sure no child labour or forced labour was used. But that day, I made the choice of my own luxury (a smashing pair of shoes) and the choice to be ignorant. Perhaps my shoes have been made under very fair conditions. Perhaps they were made in a factory somewhere in China, where young women are forced to work long hours, under bad conditions, because they we lured to the cities under falls dreams.

 

I don´t have the shoe company to blame for this, I can not blame the parents of the Chinese girl, I can not blame the fashion industry... I have myself to blame...

17.       alameda
3499 posts
 27 Dec 2009 Sun 10:03 pm

You will only elect or purchase what/who is presented to you.  You will not purchase or elect anyone/anything without the funds or backing to be pre$ented to you.  No money, no candidate.  Although a product may be wonderful, people still look for brand names....who invested in getting that name in the public eye.   Running political campaigns is very expensive?  Trillions upon trillions are spent on helping you make decisions.

 

.........and of course, you are also aware of the fact that in the US Corporations have legal personhood status?  It is a concept that has been under heavy debate lately.  In particular the case of:

 

´In 2003, a Supreme Court showdown over corporate free speech was narrowly avoided when the parties in Nike v. Kasky settled out of court over the question of whether Nike´s defense against claims it was using sweatshop labor through means, including letters to the editor and press releases, was "commercial speech" (which is legally obligated to be factual) or private speech."

 

"The Green Party, the Women´s International League for Peace and Freedom, and former Vice-President Al Gore have objected to the idea of corporate personhood. Their objections focus on constitutional protections granted to corporations, including claims of a Constitutional right to contribute to political campaigns, under consideration in the U.S. Supreme Court as of November 2009. Gore argues that, because of the 1886 decision, "the ´monopolies in commerce´ that Jefferson had wanted to prohibit in the Bill of Rights were full-blown monsters, crushing competition from smaller businesses, bleeding farmers with extortionate shipping costs, and buying politicians at every level of government".


To be sure, there is a great effort to confuse and influence what the "people" know and want. The people can, and will, only protest what they know about.   Edward Bernays used the research of his uncle, Sigmund Freud, to influence groups in a most effect manner. There is an excellent BBC series on the birth of the "Public Relations" industry called Century of the Self

 

As for our making choices, it´s really not that easy.  Who wants to become, or be considered a kook? We all make concessions so as to "fit" (function) in socety.  So yes, we the people do make the decision, but just how free to make that decision are we the people?  Just how committed to making conscious, responsible decisions are we the people?....Evidently not that committed.  We are easily swayed.  "Oh....those shoes are so cute..." and our morals fly out the window..... I wonder, if you really were conscious of the suffering in order to produce your goods, would you still want them?  Which brings us back to the issue of responsibility.  If you saw and felt the suffering of those children, enslaved workers, would you still want those shoes....or whatever product it may be that was produced under inhumane conditions?

 

And themn, let´s not underestimate the power of the Fourth Estate.  I do, in essence, agree with you.  Does this absolve you of your decision to buy those shoes?......Wink particularly in light of the fact you know they could have been manufactured by slave labour.....what do you think?

 

beQuoting barba_mama

I love it when people say "the system" or "the government" or "the companies" like these are living breathing things, that we have no control over. If we are talking about ultimately... these are all humans! WE are the people who elect the governments (in democratic countries)...if we elect people we send a message of what we find important. In the end, most people find their own bank account, or their own way of living and their own luxuries the most important. The companies are us too. We make choices to work for certain companies, to do certain jobs, and also to buy certain products thus creating the need for products and serves that other humans provide.

 

It is so easy to say "goverment this" "companies that" but in the end, we all have a responsibility. I made the choice to buy a very cheap pair of shoes the other day. I have no idea where these came from. Often I check where my products came from, to make sure no child labour or forced labour was used. But that day, I made the choice of my own luxury (a smashing pair of shoes) and the choice to be ignorant. Perhaps my shoes have been made under very fair conditions. Perhaps they were made in a factory somewhere in China, where young women are forced to work long hours, under bad conditions, because they we lured to the cities under falls dreams.

 

I don´t have the shoe company to blame for this, I can not blame the parents of the Chinese girl, I can not blame the fashion industry... I have myself to blame...

 

 



Edited (12/29/2009) by alameda [edit]

18.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 28 Dec 2009 Mon 01:11 pm

Mmm, well, the political compains in Holland do not costs trillions Our system has a lot of different parties, so you can really pick and point what you find important very well. (For example, we have the Party for Animals, for people who strongly care about animal-rights) I know that for example in the U.S., this is more difficult. The choice you have there seems to be between right winged and a little bit less drastic right winged.

But my biggest point was that a lot of choices that we make in our every day shopping can influence things like human trafficking. For example, in the cacao industry, slavery is a big issue. Buy fair trade chocolate, and you´re already giving a message that you care about this issue. Or don´t buy chocolate at all (Like that is possible!)

And perhaps, join an organization that actively battles human exploitation. If you don´t have time, give money to such an organization. Go to a less fancy hotel in Turkey, and use the money you save from this choice to help such an organization

19.       catwoman
8933 posts
 28 Dec 2009 Mon 07:32 pm

 

Quoting barba_mama

I love it when people say "the system" or "the government" or "the companies" like these are living breathing things, that we have no control over.

 

But... there are "governments" and "systems" which have tremendous power to do things that we have no control over, even if we try. They can hide a lot information about what they do and lie to the public and get away with it. You´re of course right that ´ultimately´ the public stands behind these constructs in a democratic country, and ultimately only we can force these things to change, but at this point not everybody stands behind them, but a handful of individuals with their own interests in minds.

20.       vineyards
1954 posts
 29 Dec 2009 Tue 03:10 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

I love it when people say "the system" or "the government" or "the companies" like

 

Well, as a matter of fact, you are wrong here and other people are actually doing the right thing by questioning all these entities.

 

There will surely be other, better systems and by raising these questions we are actually paving the path for better alternatives.

 

Tomorrow, there will be different regimes, different policies and different business forms since humans needs and demands will substantially change in the course of time.

 

21.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 30 Dec 2009 Wed 12:16 am

 

Quoting vineyards

 

 

Well, as a matter of fact, you are wrong here and other people are actually doing the right thing by questioning all these entities.

 

There will surely be other, better systems and by raising these questions we are actually paving the path for better alternatives.

 

Tomorrow, there will be different regimes, different policies and different business forms since humans needs and demands will substantially change in the course of time.

 

 

I´m not saying questioning the status quo is bad. But people need to realize the actual power they can have if they speak up, and motivate others to do the same. I truly believe that a better world starts at yourself. So, not sit back and complain, about companies or governments, but actually do something about it. Protest, change your own behaviour, stuff like that.

 

22.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 Dec 2009 Wed 04:23 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

 

 

I´m not saying questioning the status quo is bad. But people need to realize the actual power they can have if they speak up, and motivate others to do the same. I truly believe that a better world starts at yourself. So, not sit back and complain, about companies or governments, but actually do something about it. Protest, change your own behaviour, stuff like that.

 

 

Actually.....the whole thing begins with the questioning.....no questions....where are the answers?  Speaking without facts is not very effective.....but of course....it all starts at home.  You can call it a complaint...or you can call it reporting. If I ate in a place that gave me food poisoning and I report it, is it a complaint or am I doing a public service by letting others know?



Edited (12/30/2009) by alameda [duplicate words.....]

23.       catwoman
8933 posts
 30 Dec 2009 Wed 04:42 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

 

I´m not saying questioning the status quo is bad. But people need to realize the actual power they can have if they speak up, and motivate others to do the same. I truly believe that a better world starts at yourself. So, not sit back and complain, about companies or governments, but actually do something about it. Protest, change your own behaviour, stuff like that.

 

That is how a functioning democracy would look like, if people felt that their actions actually did make a difference. We really are apathetic and stop at blaming the government and corporate power. I think that it´s important to identify the problem, which sometimes IS the corporations and the government, but then we should act ourselves.. organize.. etc.

24.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 30 Dec 2009 Wed 12:58 pm

 

Quoting alameda

 

 

Actually.....the whole thing begins with the questioning.....no questions....where are the answers?  Speaking without facts is not very effective.....but of course....it all starts at home.  You can call it a complaint...or you can call it reporting. If I ate in a place that gave me food poisoning and I report it, is it a complaint or am I doing a public service by letting others know?

 

Actually reporting it, is an action in my eyes. Sitting at home, telling your aunty that the place had bad food, is complaining. Nothing will change, unless your aunt has the power to close restaurants You have to do something, like report it to officials to change something.

 

What I mean was, is that you have to do the things that will actually make a difference, instead of talking about the situation in a way that will not actually change anything about the situation. I think we are on the same page actually

 

25.       vineyards
1954 posts
 30 Dec 2009 Wed 02:24 pm

Well, not all governments and civil institutions are decent. In fact, corruption is quite ubiquitous. How can it not be now that all living things are opportunist by nature? We humans tend to abuse, misuse or simply over use all sorts of power at our disposal. Politicians are humans too. They just have a greater access to the venues of large scale corruption.

 

Luckily, humans are not completely bad. There are good among us and yet again not all bad people are completely bad. The human brain takes decisions or reaches conclusions by weighing alternatives. In vocal societies there is a state of conflict among alternatives. Yet there is also a constant exposure to other alternatives. If you live in a vocal society, you may start life as a revolutionary and end up as a conservative. Nevertheless, in the process the definitions of both revolutionary and conservative may have substantially changed.

 

In welfare societies there is corruption too but since people are happier with their system they usually don´t run in the streets with banners and clubs in their hands. Although there are sharp differences between classes majority of people have enough means to support their lives. You would hear compaints of the government in developing countries mostly. When people unite in something equal there is usually less conflict. For example, in the army, there are hardships but then these hardships are equally present for everyone. So, all the soldiers keep marching together in a complete accord. Problems start when differences in society become pronounced...

Quoting barba_mama

 

 

Actually reporting it, is an action in my eyes. Sitting at home, telling your aunty that the place had bad food, is complaining. Nothing will change, unless your aunt has the power to close restaurants You have to do something, like report it to officials to change something.

 

What I mean was, is that you have to do the things that will actually make a difference, instead of talking about the situation in a way that will not actually change anything about the situation. I think we are on the same page actually

 

 

 

26.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 Dec 2009 Wed 10:49 pm

 

Quoting barba_mama

 

 

Actually reporting it, is an action in my eyes. Sitting at home, telling your aunty that the place had bad food, is complaining. Nothing will change, unless your aunt has the power to close restaurants You have to do something, like report it to officials to change something.

 

What I mean was, is that you have to do the things that will actually make a difference, instead of talking about the situation in a way that will not actually change anything about the situation. I think we are on the same page actually

 

 

Actually just discussing a situation does help and adds energy to the issue.  Sometimes it helps to figure out just what is going on, and finding who/where to do the reporting.  We have all had that expereince.  You know the,  "did that really happen?" feeling?    Vineyards mentioned.....there is also the issue of corruption.  I have been through that many times reporting problems to the "authorities" who really just used it as fodder to get more bribes....A judge who was involved with a case I was working on was brought up on bribe charges....so it does happen. 

 

One single complaint disconnected rarely brings about change.  It is the cumulative effect of a group of united complaints that bring about change..........Then again, sometimes talking with your friends is the best type of reporting to do.   In reality....it is the peasants with their pitchforks and torches demanding change that brings it about.  Even just the threat or perceived threat of a bunch of protesters is often enough. The people do have the power, but the people are also subject to corruption as well.  After all, nobody likes to be uncomfortable...........which is our weakness...and cohesion is always a problem.  It´s easy to be distracted, particularly when working with a group of humans, all with different self interests.

 

A lawyer I was working with once told me...."remember, the squeaky wheel gets oiled"...........

 

In issues like this....human trafficking....we need to think of weeds....it spreads it´s seeds.  Pretty soon your yard is full of weeds that choke out your plants.  In cases like human trafficking, what is to prevent you or your loved ones from becoming a victim? Some well educated people have been trapped.....if we let it go....it will spread.  Which is to say we need to question talk about it and raise consciousness about the issue.

 

Stop Forced Child Labour

 

The US Department of State estimates that more than 109,000 children in Cote d’Ivoire’s cocoa industry work under “the worst forms of child labor,” and that some 10,000 are victims of human trafficking or enslavement.



Edited (12/30/2009) by alameda [add]

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