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Human Trafficking
(26 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
1 [2] 3
10.       alameda
3499 posts
 24 Dec 2009 Thu 07:18 pm

 

Quoting Pita

a few  things to say

one if children( manual labor ) are being used in the work force  one has to ask who is responsible for this - the child - the manufacturing company - the parents of the child or lastly the person who bought the product

 

Certainly not the child.  Who owns the manufacturing company?  IOW who determines the labour practices?  I think the ultimate responsibility is with the one who bought the product. Isn´t it our responsibility to know where the products we consume come from? In many places the one who steals and the one who buys stolen property share guilt.....then there is posession of stolen property.

 

and yes  there are many uneducated people who are working in low paying wage jobs and again I ask who do you blame the person who bought the item ( which kept the person in a job so that they can feed themselves) the company who pays them low wages i order to compete  or the goverment of that particular country for allowing those particular companies to operate there so that they can use underpaid workers

let me know and maybe we can solve this all

 

Yes, it is complicated....but the ultimate power is in the hands of the one who purchases the goods. No customer, no product.  Maybe we need to rethink what we need? Maybe we have become so distant from the production of goods that we have no way to evaluate the true value?



 

11.       ReyhanL
1961 posts
 25 Dec 2009 Fri 12:33 pm

 

Quoting alameda

Maybe because this thread is not about prostitution, but human trafficking?  The two are not synonymous.

 

 

 

 

 Ok then:  Why nobody said here about human trafficking in Turkey ? Nobody!

 

12.       ptaszek
440 posts
 26 Dec 2009 Sat 12:29 am

 

Quoting ReyhanL

 

 

 Ok then:  Why nobody said here about human trafficking in Turkey ? Nobody!

 

 

 hadi.....hadi.....sizin için bekliyoruz{#emotions_dlg.scared}

13.       catwoman
8933 posts
 26 Dec 2009 Sat 05:09 am

 

Quoting alameda

 

Certainly not the child.  Who owns the manufacturing company?  IOW who determines the labour practices?  I think the ultimate responsibility is with the one who bought the product. Isn´t it our responsibility to know where the products we consume come from? In many places the one who steals and the one who buys stolen property share guilt.....then there is posession of stolen property.

 

I have to disagree with you here. If we´re talking about "ultimate" responsibility, then it´s the system, especially when we´re talking about democratically elected governments and democratic countries. The direct responsibility belongs to the businesses who have immoral practices, especially abroad, where they try to avoid an oversight. Consumers have the least power through their purchases if we´re talking about goods of daily living, although quite a huge responsibility when it comes to purchasing people/sex.

14.       alameda
3499 posts
 26 Dec 2009 Sat 09:13 am

 

Quoting catwoman

I have to disagree with you here. If we´re talking about "ultimate" responsibility, then it´s the system, especially when we´re talking about democratically elected governments and democratic countries. The direct responsibility belongs to the businesses who have immoral practices, especially abroad, where they try to avoid an oversight. Consumers have the least power through their purchases if we´re talking about goods of daily living, although quite a huge responsibility when it comes to purchasing people/sex.

 

You do have a point, but those businesses depend on customers.  No customers, no business.  Of course, billions are spent on public relations, marketing and such to instill desire in the potential customers, many of whom have been convinced they really need these items.   In fact, many of the same items have become artificial needs.  Think white collar workers costume, the office blazer..and so on. Nails "need" to be manicured, hair needs to be "done".  One needs certain gadgets........we jam our feet into absurd devices and convince ourselves they are beautiful and we "need" them.  We can hardly even walk in many of these fashionable and very expensive shoes, our hands are not of much functional use when we actually try to walk or G-d forbid, run in them!

 

We succumb to peer pressure, even as adults.  You are right in many respects, but I still contend we still have a duty to question where the goods we consume come from, and under what conditions they were cultivated, processed and presented to us as desirable necessary commodoties. 



Edited (12/26/2009) by alameda [add]

15.       alameda
3499 posts
 26 Dec 2009 Sat 11:47 pm

 

Quoting ReyhanL

 

 

 Ok then:  Why nobody said here about human trafficking in Turkey ? Nobody!

 

 

However due to the fact that this is not a discussion about specific countries, but rather, a process that is international is scope, Turkey does not fit as the primary destination. Trafficked humans may pass through Turkey, as they pass through a lot of places....but they end up....and the products they produce end up where they garner the most profit, that place will be where ever there are disposable finances.... to afford luxuries.....Humans are trafficked for two reasons, to exploit their labour or to exploit their bodies. 

 

Actually if you read with more attention, you would have noticed post #4 in this thread, by Pita did mention Turkey.



Edited (12/26/2009) by alameda [clarify]
Edited (12/26/2009) by alameda

16.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 27 Dec 2009 Sun 02:27 pm

I love it when people say "the system" or "the government" or "the companies" like these are living breathing things, that we have no control over. If we are talking about ultimately... these are all humans! WE are the people who elect the governments (in democratic countries)...if we elect people we send a message of what we find important. In the end, most people find their own bank account, or their own way of living and their own luxuries the most important. The companies are us too. We make choices to work for certain companies, to do certain jobs, and also to buy certain products thus creating the need for products and serves that other humans provide.

 

It is so easy to say "goverment this" "companies that" but in the end, we all have a responsibility. I made the choice to buy a very cheap pair of shoes the other day. I have no idea where these came from. Often I check where my products came from, to make sure no child labour or forced labour was used. But that day, I made the choice of my own luxury (a smashing pair of shoes) and the choice to be ignorant. Perhaps my shoes have been made under very fair conditions. Perhaps they were made in a factory somewhere in China, where young women are forced to work long hours, under bad conditions, because they we lured to the cities under falls dreams.

 

I don´t have the shoe company to blame for this, I can not blame the parents of the Chinese girl, I can not blame the fashion industry... I have myself to blame...

17.       alameda
3499 posts
 27 Dec 2009 Sun 10:03 pm

You will only elect or purchase what/who is presented to you.  You will not purchase or elect anyone/anything without the funds or backing to be pre$ented to you.  No money, no candidate.  Although a product may be wonderful, people still look for brand names....who invested in getting that name in the public eye.   Running political campaigns is very expensive?  Trillions upon trillions are spent on helping you make decisions.

 

.........and of course, you are also aware of the fact that in the US Corporations have legal personhood status?  It is a concept that has been under heavy debate lately.  In particular the case of:

 

´In 2003, a Supreme Court showdown over corporate free speech was narrowly avoided when the parties in Nike v. Kasky settled out of court over the question of whether Nike´s defense against claims it was using sweatshop labor through means, including letters to the editor and press releases, was "commercial speech" (which is legally obligated to be factual) or private speech."

 

"The Green Party, the Women´s International League for Peace and Freedom, and former Vice-President Al Gore have objected to the idea of corporate personhood. Their objections focus on constitutional protections granted to corporations, including claims of a Constitutional right to contribute to political campaigns, under consideration in the U.S. Supreme Court as of November 2009. Gore argues that, because of the 1886 decision, "the ´monopolies in commerce´ that Jefferson had wanted to prohibit in the Bill of Rights were full-blown monsters, crushing competition from smaller businesses, bleeding farmers with extortionate shipping costs, and buying politicians at every level of government".


To be sure, there is a great effort to confuse and influence what the "people" know and want. The people can, and will, only protest what they know about.   Edward Bernays used the research of his uncle, Sigmund Freud, to influence groups in a most effect manner. There is an excellent BBC series on the birth of the "Public Relations" industry called Century of the Self

 

As for our making choices, it´s really not that easy.  Who wants to become, or be considered a kook? We all make concessions so as to "fit" (function) in socety.  So yes, we the people do make the decision, but just how free to make that decision are we the people?  Just how committed to making conscious, responsible decisions are we the people?....Evidently not that committed.  We are easily swayed.  "Oh....those shoes are so cute..." and our morals fly out the window..... I wonder, if you really were conscious of the suffering in order to produce your goods, would you still want them?  Which brings us back to the issue of responsibility.  If you saw and felt the suffering of those children, enslaved workers, would you still want those shoes....or whatever product it may be that was produced under inhumane conditions?

 

And themn, let´s not underestimate the power of the Fourth Estate.  I do, in essence, agree with you.  Does this absolve you of your decision to buy those shoes?......Wink particularly in light of the fact you know they could have been manufactured by slave labour.....what do you think?

 

beQuoting barba_mama

I love it when people say "the system" or "the government" or "the companies" like these are living breathing things, that we have no control over. If we are talking about ultimately... these are all humans! WE are the people who elect the governments (in democratic countries)...if we elect people we send a message of what we find important. In the end, most people find their own bank account, or their own way of living and their own luxuries the most important. The companies are us too. We make choices to work for certain companies, to do certain jobs, and also to buy certain products thus creating the need for products and serves that other humans provide.

 

It is so easy to say "goverment this" "companies that" but in the end, we all have a responsibility. I made the choice to buy a very cheap pair of shoes the other day. I have no idea where these came from. Often I check where my products came from, to make sure no child labour or forced labour was used. But that day, I made the choice of my own luxury (a smashing pair of shoes) and the choice to be ignorant. Perhaps my shoes have been made under very fair conditions. Perhaps they were made in a factory somewhere in China, where young women are forced to work long hours, under bad conditions, because they we lured to the cities under falls dreams.

 

I don´t have the shoe company to blame for this, I can not blame the parents of the Chinese girl, I can not blame the fashion industry... I have myself to blame...

 

 



Edited (12/29/2009) by alameda [edit]

18.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 28 Dec 2009 Mon 01:11 pm

Mmm, well, the political compains in Holland do not costs trillions Our system has a lot of different parties, so you can really pick and point what you find important very well. (For example, we have the Party for Animals, for people who strongly care about animal-rights) I know that for example in the U.S., this is more difficult. The choice you have there seems to be between right winged and a little bit less drastic right winged.

But my biggest point was that a lot of choices that we make in our every day shopping can influence things like human trafficking. For example, in the cacao industry, slavery is a big issue. Buy fair trade chocolate, and you´re already giving a message that you care about this issue. Or don´t buy chocolate at all (Like that is possible!)

And perhaps, join an organization that actively battles human exploitation. If you don´t have time, give money to such an organization. Go to a less fancy hotel in Turkey, and use the money you save from this choice to help such an organization

19.       catwoman
8933 posts
 28 Dec 2009 Mon 07:32 pm

 

Quoting barba_mama

I love it when people say "the system" or "the government" or "the companies" like these are living breathing things, that we have no control over.

 

But... there are "governments" and "systems" which have tremendous power to do things that we have no control over, even if we try. They can hide a lot information about what they do and lie to the public and get away with it. You´re of course right that ´ultimately´ the public stands behind these constructs in a democratic country, and ultimately only we can force these things to change, but at this point not everybody stands behind them, but a handful of individuals with their own interests in minds.

20.       vineyards
1954 posts
 29 Dec 2009 Tue 03:10 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

I love it when people say "the system" or "the government" or "the companies" like

 

Well, as a matter of fact, you are wrong here and other people are actually doing the right thing by questioning all these entities.

 

There will surely be other, better systems and by raising these questions we are actually paving the path for better alternatives.

 

Tomorrow, there will be different regimes, different policies and different business forms since humans needs and demands will substantially change in the course of time.

 

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