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The Bible in the context sexuality
(49 Messages in 5 pages - View all)
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20.       lemon
1374 posts
 13 Jun 2010 Sun 07:30 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

I know what I´m talking about, and you´re saying it too but interpreting differently. Onan was supposed to take over his brother´s maritial obligations - have sex and have a child. What he did was to have sex and use contraception (withdrawal) -> so, he wanted to have sex but he didn´t want a child. This sounds like a "contraception is bad" idea that Bible conveys. Are there any places in the Bible that say "have sex and enjoy it, having children is not the objective in marriage?" No? I thought so

 

Any quotes saying God considers marriage private and intimate and doesn´t interfere?

 

Well, Im gonna say to you that you dont know much of Mosaic Laws.

Onan could have and had as much sex as he wanted. His brother´s wife wanted a child or children. For a woman in Israel at those times (or any other woman of those times) not having a child was a shame. Women gained respect through having children.

 

Nowhere in the Bible it says you cant have sex without the idea of procreation.

 

Abraham and Sarah had sex for decades and couldnt have children.So did Isaac and Jacob.

 

God never said to anyone: Go have sex and enjoy it.

 

Read 1 Cor. 7. 5-6.

21.       lemon
1374 posts
 13 Jun 2010 Sun 07:32 pm

 

Quoting armegon

It is all about interpretation, it can be interpreted in both ways, Onan didnt listen to God, and because of disobeidence to God, he was punished or using contraception is something bad forbidden by God so God punished him. But i have to say lemon´s interpretation is correct and direct, other interpretation is something like adding words from your own that God did not say something like that which is not much welcomed in religous teachings, indirect interpretation...

 

 

 

For a person of modern age after a strong humanist propaganda it is very difficult to understand the Laws used in the Ancient times.

22.       gezegen
269 posts
 13 Jun 2010 Sun 08:20 pm

 

Quoting lemon

Onan could have and had as much sex as he wanted. His brother´s wife wanted a child or children. For a woman in Israel at those times (or any other woman of those times) not having a child was a shame. Women gained respect through having children.

 

 

So, was Onan killed by God only because he refused to fulfill the wish of his brother´s wife (having a child)?



Edited (6/13/2010) by gezegen

23.       lemon
1374 posts
 13 Jun 2010 Sun 09:39 pm

 

Quoting gezegen

 

Quoting lemon

Onan could have and had as much sex as he wanted. His brother´s wife wanted a child or children. For a woman in Israel at those times (or any other woman of those times) not having a child was a shame. Women gained respect through having children.

 

 

So, was Onan killed by God only because he refused to fulfill the wish of his brother´s wife (having a child)?

 

Yes, exactly!

 

24.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 13 Jun 2010 Sun 11:10 pm

Armegon - how can you state which interpretation is wrong or right? You may or may not agree with it only Unless, of course, you wrote the Bible and know the correct interpretation

 

Lemon - Abraham and his wife are a different story - they couldn´t have children, they didn´t want NOt to have them if I remember correctly. I hate that story because of Hagar and how it speak of abuse like it was natural. Anyway, Ab and Sarah(?) didn´t use contraception, they tried to procreate but without luck.

 

Onan was supposed to take over his brother´s duty. Apparently the duty was not to have intercourse but to inseminate. He didn´t do it so he was punished. So, he didn´t fail to have sex but chose not to inseminate. Hence the punishment. As Bible is but a collection of examples - it can be seen God doesn´t like people wasting their semen. Or homosexuals. Or prostitutes.

 

That´s it. You may read the Bible, look for inspiration, moral answers etc but it´s hard to imagine you treat it like a text that is still valid these days. The laws have changed and so have moral standards, means of transportation and lifestyles. These make Bible an interesting reading material for historians, sociologists and literature specialist but not a text to be treated literally

 

And, since God doesn´t speak of letting people enjoy contraceptives, but punishes Onan for avoiding inseminatating, I´m inclined to interpret it like I did. I mean, I would be inclined to interpret it this way if I didn´t give a rat´s tutu about it lol

25.       armegon
1872 posts
 14 Jun 2010 Mon 01:41 am

 

Quoting Daydreamer

Armegon - how can you state which interpretation is wrong or right? You may or may not agree with it only Unless, of course, you wrote the Bible and know the correct interpretation

 

 

DD, i know it is hard for you to understand{#emotions_dlg.rolleyes}, if you think about once again, thats an order from God not open to interpretation actually, if you dont do what He orders He says you will be punished, that is all. But God does not say directly "Using contraception is forbidden", this is your interpretation, and he does not need your interpretation. If you have chance to serve in Turkish military, im sure you will understand what i mean , there is only orders, not interpretations to assure the dicipline...Wink

26.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 14 Jun 2010 Mon 03:38 am

 

Quoting armegon

 

Quoting Daydreamer

Armegon - how can you state which interpretation is wrong or right? You may or may not agree with it only Unless, of course, you wrote the Bible and know the correct interpretation

 

 

DD, i know it is hard for you to understand{#emotions_dlg.rolleyes}, if you think about once again, thats an order from God not open to interpretation actually, if you dont do what He orders He says you will be punished, that is all. But God does not say directly "Using contraception is forbidden", this is your interpretation, and he does not need your interpretation. If you have chance to serve in Turkish military, im sure you will understand what i mean , there is only orders, not interpretations to assure the dicipline...Wink

 

Actually it´s not an order per se. It´s a parable about one ancient guy not having come  inside his brother´s wife and being punished for that. If that´s the way army officials give orders then I´m surprised army has that much power in Turkey lol

 

Just imagine that: A general addresses soldiers saying:

 

"Once upon a time there was a villager in the Black sea region. Instead of working he spent his days on the bench in front of his house, having delicious meals his mum made for him.

As a result he grew very fat. One day he saw a golden chicken. He couldn´t believe his eyes. Having decided it would make a nice contribution to the house budget, he wanted to catch it. Unfortunately, he tripped over his sandals that he had taken off and placed in front of the bench. The poor fellow bruised his elbows badly and the golden chicken ran away"

 

Do you think the soldiers would be able to decide whether it was an order to start the drill (to avoid being fat), or to clean up (the sandal metaphor) or, maybe to avoid temptation (the chicken and bruise)? lol

 

I´ve no idea how you do it in Turkey, in Poland officers just command

27.       armegon
1872 posts
 14 Jun 2010 Mon 03:52 am

{#emotions_dlg.lol} I know the parable dear, but in parable God orders, right? I just tried to help you to understand but it seems i failed...  

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

Actually it´s not an order per se. It´s a parable about one ancient guy not having come  inside his brother´s wife and being punished for that. If that´s the way army officials give orders then I´m surprised army has that much power in Turkey lol

 

28.       lemon
1374 posts
 14 Jun 2010 Mon 11:17 am

This is the text from Genesis re: Onan. He was a son of Judah. Judah was a son of Jacob (Israel). So God killed Israel´s grandson for his wickedness.

 

Genesis 38

Judah and Tamar

 1 At that time, Judah left his brothers and went down to stay with a man of Adullam named Hirah. 2 There Judah met the daughter of a Canaanite man named Shua. He married her and lay with her; 3 she became pregnant and gave birth to a son, who was named Er. 4 She conceived again and gave birth to a son and named him Onan. 5 She gave birth to still another son and named him Shelah. It was at Kezib that she gave birth to him.

 6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah´s firstborn, was wicked in the LORD´s sight; so the LORD put him to death.

 8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother´s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother´s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD´s sight; so he put him to death also.

 11 Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, "Live as a widow in your father´s house until my son Shelah grows up." For he thought, "He may die too, just like his brothers." So Tamar went to live in her father´s house.

 12 After a long time Judah´s wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him.

 13 When Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep," 14 she took off her widow´s clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.

 15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you."
      "And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.

 17 "I´ll send you a young goat from my flock," he said.
      "Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?" she asked.

 18 He said, "What pledge should I give you?"
      "Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand," she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. 19 After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow´s clothes again.

 20 Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. 21 He asked the men who lived there, "Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?"
      "There hasn´t been any shrine prostitute here," they said.

 22 So he went back to Judah and said, "I didn´t find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, ´There hasn´t been any shrine prostitute here.´ "

 23 Then Judah said, "Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn´t find her."

 24 About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant."
      Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!"

 25 As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. "I am pregnant by the man who owns these," she said. And she added, "See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are."

 26 Judah recognized them and said, "She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn´t give her to my son Shelah." And he did not sleep with her again.

 27 When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. 28 As she was giving birth, one of them put out his hand; so the midwife took a scarlet thread and tied it on his wrist and said, "This one came out first." 29 But when he drew back his hand, his brother came out, and she said, "So this is how you have broken out!" And he was named Perez. [a] 30 Then his brother, who had the scarlet thread on his wrist, came out and he was given the name Zerah. [b]

29.       lemon
1374 posts
 14 Jun 2010 Mon 11:21 am

 

Quoting Daydreamer

Armegon - how can you state which interpretation is wrong or right? You may or may not agree with it only Unless, of course, you wrote the Bible and know the correct interpretation

 

Lemon - Abraham and his wife are a different story - they couldn´t have children, they didn´t want NOt to have them if I remember correctly. I hate that story because of Hagar and how it speak of abuse like it was natural. Anyway, Ab and Sarah(?) didn´t use contraception, they tried to procreate but without luck.

 

Onan was supposed to take over his brother´s duty. Apparently the duty was not to have intercourse but to inseminate. He didn´t do it so he was punished. So, he didn´t fail to have sex but chose not to inseminate. Hence the punishment. As Bible is but a collection of examples - it can be seen God doesn´t like people wasting their semen. Or homosexuals. Or prostitutes.

 

That´s it. You may read the Bible, look for inspiration, moral answers etc but it´s hard to imagine you treat it like a text that is still valid these days. The laws have changed and so have moral standards, means of transportation and lifestyles. These make Bible an interesting reading material for historians, sociologists and literature specialist but not a text to be treated literally

 

And, since God doesn´t speak of letting people enjoy contraceptives, but punishes Onan for avoiding inseminatating, I´m inclined to interpret it like I did. I mean, I would be inclined to interpret it this way if I didn´t give a rat´s tutu about it lol

 

Your interpretation is not yours it is Catholic.

 

As you, yourself dont read Bible it doesnt mean that it is invalid.

 

Customs, traditions, cultures, religions change but God and His Words never.

 

And, yes, God hates homosexualism, prostitution and our modern day immoral culture.

30.       lemon
1374 posts
 14 Jun 2010 Mon 11:22 am

 

Quoting armegon

{#emotions_dlg.lol} I know the parable dear, but in parable God orders, right? I just tried to help you to understand but it seems i failed...  

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

Actually it´s not an order per se. It´s a parable about one ancient guy not having come  inside his brother´s wife and being punished for that. If that´s the way army officials give orders then I´m surprised army has that much power in Turkey lol

 

 

Its not a parable, its a true story. Do not repeat after DD.

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