Welcome
Login:   Pass:     Register - Forgot Password - Resend Activation

Turkish Class Forums / News articles, events, announcements

News articles, events, announcements

Add reply to this discussion
Great day for Turkey and Turkish democracy!!
(71 Messages in 8 pages - View all)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 13 Sep 2010 Mon 12:55 pm

All news papers are talking about the applications to the prosecuters about taking 12th of September 1980 coup generals to the court after the referendum results. ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11279881 

It is a great day for Turkey and Turkish democracy!!

Ankara, Istanbul, Izmir.. Everywhere.. 

Turkish people have broken the chains of 12th of September.. 

This is a double festival!! 

The best ever festival for last 30 years..

 

http://www.samanyoluhaber.com/h_451304_darbeciler-hakkinda-suc-duyurusu.html

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.aspx?aType=RadikalDetay&ArticleID=1018714&Date=13.09.2010&CategoryID=77

http://www.zaman.com.tr/haber.do?haberno=1027030&title=darbecilere-yargi-yolu-acildi

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/15768672.asp?gid=373

....

One of his famous sayings was  ´dont hang them? do you expect us to feed them instead´ when he was trying to justify the hangings.. 

 

2.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 13 Sep 2010 Mon 01:22 pm

I wish all my best for Türkiye and turkish peoples..they deserve the best

3.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 13 Sep 2010 Mon 11:28 pm

 

Quoting elenagabriela

I wish all my best for Türkiye and turkish peoples..they deserve the best

 

Thanks Elena..{#emotions_dlg.flowers}

People of Turkey have suffered alot because of this constitution!! Though every human being  deserves the best, I thank you for your words: Yes we have gone through alot with those army generals at the time. It  would be wonderful to take them into the court for their crimes against Turkish people and their crimes against humanity..

Now, we want more.. This was the ammendments for ´being able to make a  new constitution´. We want a new one, a new constitution which will crown our republic...

4.       zeytinne
596 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 12:58 am

 

Quoting elenagabriela

I wish all my best for Türkiye and turkish peoples..they deserve the best

 

 İf as you say " they deserve the best" doesnt mean they will have the best.

5.       catwoman
8933 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 01:21 am

"Among the 26 articles comprising the package, changes are proposed in the way senior judges are selected.

Opposition parties, including the CHP secularists, argue that these will enable the government to exert more influence over the judiciary."

 

Do you think this really is a victory to democracy?

mltm liked this message
6.       turkishcobra
607 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 02:00 am

 

YES = %57,94

NO = %42,06

 

These rates mean half of the community approves the package and the other half doesn´t. Constitutional changes are required social consensus, because no matter if approve or not, all of the citizens are going to be governed by SAME package. Can you see any consensus here? So how can we talk about the victory of democracy?

The same thing would be valid if YES was %42 and NO was %57. Ruling-parties must find a common way, they can´t serve a package and pull themselves back, saying "this is this, like or not". Unfortunately, both ruling-party and the opposition parties turned it into election and it looked like a vote of confidence for AKP.

Türkiye is a heterogeneous community; secularists, conservatives and other kind of views live together and they have to deal with all of them. It doesn´t mean that this package is democtratic since it is prepared by a conversative ruling-party and voted by a relatively conversative community.

 

thanks.

 

 



Edited (9/14/2010) by turkishcobra
Edited (9/14/2010) by turkishcobra

Tulip, mltm, pablahol, slavica, elenagabriela and catwoman liked this message
7.       armegon
1872 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 03:22 am

 

Quoting turkishcobra

 

YES = %57,94

NO = %42,06

 

And below is the map greens are "yes", and reds are "no"

8.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 08:50 am

{#emotions_dlg.flowers}



Edited (9/14/2010) by elenagabriela

9.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 08:51 am

 

Quoting zeytinne

 

 

 İf as you say " they deserve the best" doesnt mean they will have the best.

 

 what remains in Pandora`s box - the hope; we all have to hope for a new life; dont forget about the ex - communist countries....

10.       si++
3785 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 10:05 am

 

Quoting catwoman

"Among the 26 articles comprising the package, changes are proposed in the way senior judges are selected.

Opposition parties, including the CHP secularists, argue that these will enable the government to exert more influence over the judiciary."

 

Do you think this really is a victory to democracy? No, I don´t

 

Court official in post-referendum warning

Instead of forward, referendum was a backlash for Turkey, a senior court official argues.

Court official in post-referendum warning

A senior court official has warned that the independence of the courts could be brought into question after Turks approved changes to the constitution.

Kadir Özbek, who heads the Judges and Prosecutors Higher Board, or HSYK said Monday Turkey is at point that is “more backward than yesterday.”

About 58 percent voted in favor of government-proposed amendments to the constitution crafted after a 1980 military coup, which includes provisions to make the military more accountable to civilian courts.

Some 42 percent voted against on Sunday, fearing the changes would give the ruling Islamic-oriented party powers to appoint judges and prosecutors close to the party, and allow it to advance a pro-Islamic agenda.

Annette Faye liked this message
11.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:20 am

 

Quoting turkishcobra

 

YES = %57,94

NO = %42,06

 

These rates mean half of the community approves the package and the other half doesn´t. Constitutional changes are required social consensus, because no matter if approve or not, all of the citizens are going to be governed by SAME package. Can you see any consensus here? So how can we talk about the victory of democracy?

The same thing would be valid if YES was %42 and NO was %57. Ruling-parties must find a common way, they can´t serve a package and pull themselves back, saying "this is this, like or not". Unfortunately, both ruling-party and the opposition parties turned it into election and it looked like a vote of confidence for AKP.

Türkiye is a heterogeneous community; secularists, conservatives and other kind of views live together and they have to deal with all of them. It doesn´t mean that this package is democtratic since it is prepared by a conversative ruling-party and voted by a relatively conversative community.

 

thanks.

 

 

 

What do you mean not democratic? All the parties are saying that ´NOW WE HAVE TO RESPECT THE DECISION OF TURKISH PEOPLE´. 

In the end it is a referendum and 50% votes+1 wins..

What do you mean no it is not democratic? Did people go to ballots under the arms? were there tanks on the streets? Anybody´s opinion suppressed?  Did somebody threaten the voters? (btw.. that is how this current constitution was approved in 1980s) 

Well, I wish the package was prepared by another party, a real social democratic party for example.. But did you see any alternatives? I mean, did any party come and and say ´this is my alternative proposal´?

Do you see any of the articles which is against the essence of democracy or against the people basic rights in the changes? if you believe there are, bring it on.. lets see what they are and how undemocratic they are..

I wish this was not turned into vote of confidence for AKP. Because AKP is a party and as any of the other parties they will go away from governing Turkey. They are temporary.. But this changes are for the future..

If people were able to think they were voting for the constitution only, the percentage would be much higher.. But anyway, as you see, now they pressed the button for a brand new FULL constitution.. I hope all parties will join this time instead of whining..  

 

12.       slavica
814 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:23 am

 

The US and European Union have welcomed the result of the Turkish constitutional referendum.

 

Of course, I also wish the best for Turkish people, but from the experiance of my country I know one thing: whenever US and European Unione were pleased with what we´ve done, it was bad for our people. And with such results of referendum, with (almost) balanced amounts of YES and NO, I realy must express my doubts about the positive effects of Constitutional changes for the Turkish people.

catwoman and armegon liked this message
13.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:31 am

Demogracy is the ruling of the majority of the people. Even 51% would be the majority. Some people are afraid this will increase the power of a religiously focussed party, but if that is the party that was elected, than that is what the people want.

14.       slavica
814 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:40 am

 

Quoting elenagabriela

 

 

dont forget about the ex - communist countries....

 

I am from ex-communist country and I don´t see "democracy" brought us much good! On the contrary, what Western democracy brought us was increase of nationalism, wars, poverty of mayority and extreme wealth of a couple, anarchy and increase of crimes, "blood, sweat and tears"...

Annette Faye and zeytinne liked this message
15.       si++
3785 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:45 am

 

Quoting slavica

 

The US and European Union have welcomed the result of the Turkish constitutional referendum.

 

Of course, I also wish the best for Turkish people, but from the experiance of my country I know one thing: whenever US and European Unione were pleased with what we´ve done, it was bad for our people. And with such results of referendum, with (almost) balanced amounts of YES and NO, I realy must express my doubts about the positive effects of Constitutional changes for the Turkish people.

Well said Slavica! My exact feelings!

 

16.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:46 am

 

Quoting slavica

 

The US and European Union have welcomed the result of the Turkish constitutional referendum.

 

Of course, I also wish the best for Turkish people, but from the experiance of my country I know one thing: whenever US and European Unione were pleased with what we´ve done, it was bad for our people.

 

 you are right, it were the same things happened in my country; but if I am looking to past, 20 years or more ago, when we were a communist country, nowadays are better; even if most of our peoples are saying - in the past was better; no I dont agrre them; I am for progress and change; even nowadays I am working hard, I am happy to be free; even most our politicians are corupted, I am not afraid to express my thoughts; and the most achievment being an UE country is travelling without visa abroad, to western Europe countries{#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}

maybe for the turkish peoples will be hard in the beggining but all new beginning means sacrifice...

I hope all will be better, turkish peoples deserve it- a hard working people...

cptezgin liked this message
17.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:52 am

 

Quoting turkishcobra

 

YES = %57,94

NO = %42,06

 

These rates mean half of the community approves the package and the other half doesn´t. Constitutional changes are required social consensus, because no matter if approve or not, all of the citizens are going to be governed by SAME package. Can you see any consensus here? So how can we talk about the victory of democracy?

The same thing would be valid if YES was %42 and NO was %57. Ruling-parties must find a common way, they can´t serve a package and pull themselves back, saying "this is this, like or not". Unfortunately, both ruling-party and the opposition parties turned it into election and it looked like a vote of confidence for AKP.

Türkiye is a heterogeneous community; secularists, conservatives and other kind of views live together and they have to deal with all of them. It doesn´t mean that this package is democtratic since it is prepared by a conversative ruling-party and voted by a relatively conversative community.

 

thanks.

 

 

I also want to add one more thing really:

I despise people who think conservatives are less people then themselves.. 

This is reminding me ´ignorant people syndrome´ of Turkish ruling elite who gets kind of afraid  and  startled when they get close to those conservatives.. That arrogant elite thinks that ´these ignorant conservatives dont know whet they are voting for´, that elite thinks that the people of Turkey is conservative and stupid because they think they are educated..

I really despise that!! 

 

18.       turkishcobra
607 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 12:02 pm

 

Party elections and constitutional changes are DIFFERENT things. When %51 of majority votes a ruling-party, %49 of minority has chance to be represented by alternative oppositional parties or coalitions. But in constitutional changes, that minority of %49 does NOT have a chance to be represented by alternative articles. This is what I´m trying to say.

And by the way, what about the people that declare "no-voters" as "coup-supporter, anti-democratic" ? Everybody is same, no difference, so no need to label opposite ideas!

 

thanks.



Edited (9/14/2010) by turkishcobra
Edited (9/14/2010) by turkishcobra

Annette Faye and slavica liked this message
19.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 12:39 pm

 

Quoting turkishcobra

 

Party elections and constitutional changes are DIFFERENT things. When %51 of majority votes a ruling-party, %49 of minority has chance to be represented by alternative oppositional parties or coalitions. But in constitutional changes, that minority of %49 does NOT have a chance to be represented by alternative articles. This is what I´m trying to say.

And by the way, what about the people that declare "no-voters" as "coup-supporter, anti-democratic" ? Everybody is same, no difference, so no need to label opposite ideas!

 

thanks.

 

Well this is just a start.. A new constitution is on its way.. So no need to be alarmed.

These changes "opened the way" for making a new constitution.. 

As I asked, I would love to know which part of changes you did not like !!

because i have this feeling that almost all NO voters did not know why they said no.. (Most of them were just trying to oppose the government. Not the changes!!)

20.       turkishcobra
607 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 01:04 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

 

because i have this feeling that almost all NO voters did not know why they said no.. What a big contradiction is being disturbed of YES-voters to be called "they don´t know what they voted for" and then saying "I have this feeling that almost all NO voters didn´t know what they said NO" !

Huh? What is this? A camera joke?

 

 

 

 

21.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 02:29 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

"Among the 26 articles comprising the package, changes are proposed in the way senior judges are selected.

Opposition parties, including the CHP secularists, argue that these will enable the government to exert more influence over the judiciary."

 

Do you think this really is a victory to democracy?

 

Well it is actually.. The amendments are not more different than any other civilized countries.. Many examples are around.. USA/Germany/France etc.. What was unusual was the way the member of constitutional court members were elected.. Judges were electing each other..  Actually, the subject itself  is a bit deeper than that.. There is a constitution which can be criticized as not fit for a democracy and the whole bunch of institutions trying to protect that undemocratic  constitution.   

I think the only thing the opposition came up with was to scare people.. It was like sheria was going to be entering Turkey from Iranian border the following day.. The idea of a fascist authoritarian party coming, trying to muscle is a danger of course.. But the danger is the same danger in any democracy..And  you fight it in the democracy itself.. But you can not fight the regime of army+ bureaucracy in democracies as they were not supposed to in there..  That is what we have had in Turkey for so long..

 

22.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 02:31 pm

 

Quoting turkishcobra

 

What a big contradiction is being disturbed of YES-voters to be called "they don´t know what they voted for" and then saying "I have this feeling that almost all NO voters didn´t know what they said NO" !

Huh? What is this? A camera joke?

 

 

 

Where is the contradiction?

23.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 03:37 pm

 

Quoting slavica

 

 

I am from ex-communist country and I don´t see "democracy" brought us much good! On the contrary, what Western democracy brought us was increase of nationalism, wars, poverty of mayority and extreme wealth of a couple, anarchy and increase of crimes, "blood, sweat and tears"...

 

 It isn´t democracy that brought you these problems, it´s the corruption of the people who are in power that brought you these problems. This has nothing to do with democracy or communism for that matter. Where there is corruption, there is suffering. No matter what the political system is.

 

I think the people who were killed for expression their opinions under communist ruling don´t agree with you that "everything is much worse" now. People always look at the past with rose-tinted glasses. Under communism a lot of countries had a few good years, because everything was based on a lie. The countries were not sustainable. Jobs were created were no actual work was needed. The people in management weren´t the best managers, but the ones who could suck up the most to political leaders. And I remember the images of people standing in long lines, waiting for a piece of bread. After democracy, this image hasn´t changed 100%. Why not? Because the same people are still in power.



Edited (9/14/2010) by barba_mama

elenagabriela liked this message
24.       mltm
3690 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 05:33 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

"Among the 26 articles comprising the package, changes are proposed in the way senior judges are selected.

Opposition parties, including the CHP secularists, argue that these will enable the government to exert more influence over the judiciary."

 

Do you think this really is a victory to democracy?

 

catwoman, I wish every turkish citizen were as much as intelligent as you and questioned the governement and their changes.

As R. Tayyip Erdogan once said before being president, "democracy is just a train for us, when we get where we want to, we get off from it"...

Now, they get rid off the constitutional obstacles and their way is opened.

25.       armegon
1872 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 07:52 pm

The real problem is the structural change of Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors not the change of Constitutional Court. But of course they are very much related to eachother. Let me try to explain as far as  I understand. Before Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors has 7 members, 5 of them were selected between Supreme Judges who have no worries about carrier thus not dependant to Ministry of Justice by general assembly of Supreme Court of Appeals and Council of State. And other 2 members were Justice Minister as a chairman and Counselor of Justice Minister. Now after the change Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors(HSYK) has 22 members, 7 members are preserved same as the ex-one, now 4 members will be selected directly by President, 10 members will be selected between first class judges and public prosecutors who have worries about their carrier thus dependant to Ministry of Justice by assembly of Judges and Prosecutors, and 1 member will be selected by Academy of Justice. Before the effect of supreme Judges who are independent was 5/7 and now 5/22 simply. In other words the effect of political power in Judiciary system is strengthened, it was before 2/7 and now 12/22 and it also gives right President to select 4 members directly. Before it was violating the division of powers principle and now it is the same, only the effect of political power is strengthened. Besides this Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors is the council that decides the assembly members of Supreme Court of Appeals and Council of State and thus they affect the Constitutional Court since Court of Appeals and Council of State selects some of the members of Constitutional Court. It is like a chain, when one changes the structure of Supreme Courts, that affects all Judiciary system from higher level to lower level.

Anyway another important change that most people forgot is the check of actions of political power by Judiciary system which seems much weakened by changes, thus Judiciary system for instance cannot sue any action of political power overseeing the commonwealth. I guess this is one is the most important change that current political power desire...

Quoting catwoman

"Among the 26 articles comprising the package, changes are proposed in the way senior judges are selected.

Opposition parties, including the CHP secularists, argue that these will enable the government to exert more influence over the judiciary."

 

Do you think this really is a victory to democracy?

 

 

26.       armegon
1872 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 08:49 pm

By the way till now 80 or 90 constitutional laws out of 196 were changed or modified, noone called them great for Turkish democracy...

27.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 09:19 pm

 

Quoting armegon

By the way till now 80 or 90 constitutional laws out of 196 were changed or modified, noone called them great for Turkish democracy...

 

I guess, this one is more important than the others as it was approved by the people in a referendum and opened the way of making a new non-army  based constitution.

I think it is a nice thing and a real victory for Turkish democracy..

28.       armegon
1872 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 09:29 pm

But if the parliament had compromised on articles, referandum will not take place and referandum also points out still there is no compromise. Even 1961 constitution that the current government usually criticizes got 64% of people´s approval as far as I remember...

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

I guess, this one is more important than the others as it was approved by the people in a referendum and opened the way of making a new non-army  based constitution.

I think it is a nice thing and a real victory for Turkish democracy..

 

 

turkishcobra liked this message
29.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 09:50 pm

 

Quoting armegon

But if the parliament had compromised on articles, referandum will not take place and referandum also points out still there is no compromise. Even 1961 constitution that the current government usually criticizes got 64% of people´s approval as far as I remember...

 

 

 

I completely agree with the compromise.. But it is almost impossible to make any agreement with the opposition.. It is the cheap politics in the end..

I wish the difference was much more.. But then it would have been seen as approval for AKP. Which is not good either because a party should not be that powerful..

I really wish it was not turned into ´vote of confidence for AKP´. I really wish people talked about the changes themselves in the campaigns..

30.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 09:55 pm

There was this nice analysis about who lost in this referendum:


-The army and judiciary (They lost their power. They are not a political force any more)
-MHP -ultra right wings- (lost serious amount of vote..Or his supporters did not listen to their party)
-CHP -main opposition party-(They still have not registered that "they can not be in politics as the lawyers in ergenekon case" and they can not win anything without producing a clear solution to Kurdish problem and they can not ignore scarf wearing  conservative population )
-Turkish left (Some of them become more right wing than MHP)
-BDP (PKK) (Some kurds showed us that if it is not for the right thing, they will defy PKK and its political wings. The changes have accepted without their contribution -with 6 million difference. With this referendum, BDP-PKK- and its politcal groups were planning to have more cards in their hands to negotiate but it did not happen)

31.       slavica
814 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:19 pm

 

Quoting elenagabriela

 

 

 you are right, it were the same things happened in my country; but if I am looking to past, 20 years or more ago, when we were a communist country, nowadays are better; even if most of our peoples are saying - in the past was better; no I dont agrre them; I am for progress and change; even nowadays I am working hard, I am happy to be free; even most our politicians are corupted, I am not afraid to express my thoughts; and the most achievment being an UE country is travelling without visa abroad, to western Europe countries{#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}

maybe for the turkish peoples will be hard in the beggining but all new beginning means sacrifice...

I hope all will be better, turkish peoples deserve it- a hard working people...

 

Elena, I completely understand you and I´m glad if fall of communism brought happiness and prosperity to your country. I know what life was in your country under Causesku, I´m old enough to remember. But not all communist countries were the same. My (ex) country, Yugoslavia, was not a part of Eastern Block and we had much more freedom and much higher standard of living than surrounding communist countries: we were allowed to leave the country whenever we wanted, we travelled all around the world with no visas, we didn´t have much, but it was enough for decent life, it was safe to walk around day and night with no fear. From the other hand, in your country and most other communist countries DIDN´T happen the same things as here: civil war, economic embargo, disintegration. As the result, an average citizen of Serbia lives much worse today than 20 years ago. Simply, just not being afraid to express my thoughts doesn´t satisfy me - I want salary for my work, glass of milk with no waiting in the line and place in kindergarten for my grandchild, quite streets with no gangs (or scum, as one of members here said) and drug dealers at them, I want at least as decent life for me and my family as we had under the communism.

 

And what will be destiny of Turkish people after changes they voted with such a symbolic majority? Who can guarantee that it will be like destiny of your people and not like destiny of mine?

32.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:57 pm

 

Quoting slavica

 

 

Elena, I completely understand you and I´m glad if fall of communism brought happiness and prosperity to your country. I know what life was in your country under Causesku, I´m old enough to remember. But not all communist countries were the same. My (ex) country, Yugoslavia, was not a part of Eastern Block and we had much more freedom and much higher standard of living than surrounding communist countries: we were allowed to leave the country whenever we wanted, we travelled all around the world with no visas, we didn´t have much, but it was enough for decent life, it was safe to walk around day and night with no fear. From the other hand, in your country and most other communist countries DIDN´T happen the same things as here: civil war, economic embargo, disintegration. As the result, an average citizen of Serbia lives much worse today than 20 years ago. Simply, just not being afraid to express my thoughts doesn´t satisfy me - I want salary for my work, glass of milk with no waiting in the line and place in kindergarten for my grandchild, quite streets with no gangs (or scum, as one of members here said) and drug dealers at them, I want at least as decent life for me and my family as we had under the communism.

 

And what will be destiny of Turkish people after changes they voted with such a symbolic majority? Who can guarantee that it will be like destiny of your people and not like destiny of mine?

Wow

Thank you very much for this honest account of what happened in your country in your view. I always wanted to know what people would think after all those.

I always thought something went wrong when disintegrating and I blamed the supressed nationalism for that.. I believe you could have lived as a one single country if nationalism had been curbed succesfully. I am not  blaming the Serbs only  there though..

 

33.       barkindo
22 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 12:28 am

First of all i would like to congratulate the Turkish people for their courage to for change, despite the fact that so many people fear that this change might be the first step to anarchy.  

It is important, if you want to have a united, strong Turkey, that justice must be done and seen to be done.  Past wrongs have to be put right.  All people need to have  a fair say in their country.  I think the referendum was a first step towards it.  

If the majority of Turkish people want to be ruled by a pro-Islamic party, it is not necessary a bad thing, as long as people have a real choice in democratic elections.  

34.       vineyards
1954 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 01:11 am

Congratulating Turkish people for their courage? 91% of the Turkish people voted in favour of the 82 constitution with a record high turnout. They deliberately supported the regime then. Our people are quite opportunistic, they support the one who has the biggest power.

35.       catwoman
8933 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 05:22 am

 

Quoting thehandsom

What do you mean not democratic? All the parties are saying that ´NOW WE HAVE TO RESPECT THE DECISION OF TURKISH PEOPLE´. 

In the end it is a referendum and 50% votes+1 wins..

 

Actually I don´t think that democracy should be defined as 50% +1, that is not democracy but rule of the majority. Democracy is where every citizen´s rights are respected, not 51% of the people´s dictatorship over the other 49%. And especially when it comes to changes to constitution, the changes should not be approved by 51%.

And.. I know a few people who voted "yes" but had NO idea what they were voting for.

slavica and turkishcobra liked this message
36.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 07:52 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

 

 

 It isn´t democracy that brought you these problems, it´s the corruption of the people who are in power that brought you these problems. This has nothing to do with democracy or communism for that matter. Where there is corruption, there is suffering. No matter what the political system is.

 

I think the people who were killed for expression their opinions under communist ruling don´t agree with you that "everything is much worse" now. People always look at the past with rose-tinted glasses. Under communism a lot of countries had a few good years, because everything was based on a lie. The countries were not sustainable. Jobs were created were no actual work was needed. The people in management weren´t the best managers, but the ones who could suck up the most to political leaders. And I remember the images of people standing in long lines, waiting for a piece of bread. After democracy, this image hasn´t changed 100%. Why not? Because the same people are still in power.

 

 I agree{#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}

I am from one of ex - communist country; my friends and I hoped more after 1989..but..all in vain...Indeed, all was a big lie, the life, the work...nowadays is better even if most of us dont want to see the truth; if you are able to work good and efficient your life is good; indeed, we are so far from Germany, Belgium or France, but we are not so hard working people; we like to receive a bit and to give a bit - my opinion; indeed, they are my peoples...anyway, as you said, the democracy and progress are so different from coruption; the coruption exist, maybe, everywhere, but that not means we dont need progress and change to better

37.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 08:09 am

 

Quoting slavica

 

 

Elena, I completely understand you and I´m glad if fall of communism brought happiness and prosperity to your country. I know what life was in your country under Causesku, I´m old enough to remember. But not all communist countries were the same. My (ex) country, Yugoslavia, was not a part of Eastern Block and we had much more freedom and much higher standard of living than surrounding communist countries: we were allowed to leave the country whenever we wanted, we travelled all around the world with no visas, we didn´t have much, but it was enough for decent life, it was safe to walk around day and night with no fear. From the other hand, in your country and most other communist countries DIDN´T happen the same things as here: civil war, economic embargo, disintegration. As the result, an average citizen of Serbia lives much worse today than 20 years ago. Simply, just not being afraid to express my thoughts doesn´t satisfy me - I want salary for my work, glass of milk with no waiting in the line and place in kindergarten for my grandchild, quite streets with no gangs (or scum, as one of members here said) and drug dealers at them, I want at least as decent life for me and my family as we had under the communism.

 

And what will be destiny of Turkish people after changes they voted with such a symbolic majority? Who can guarantee that it will be like destiny of your people and not like destiny of mine?

 

 indeed, the ex Yugoslavia wasnt like my country; indeed I disagree with your disintegration and war...but I think that is not a result of democracy; like in my country were, maybe, a lot of politicians who got the power and privileges after 1990; but I cant forget the `80 years in my country - I was in highschool and after in faculty; we hadnt had light in our home, we learnt in school in cold , because not warm for rooms; there was not milk for babies, not food for people..anything; today all common things for a normal life exist; indeed, they are so expensive; indeed, there are drugs dealers here (but they are everywhere); there are  scums..but all is much better here; indeed, I dont receive the correct money for my work (like I will in another western country) because of coruption, but I can do an extra job..anyway, I dont regret communism, it was a wound of my youth.

I can imagine very well what was my life if the communism was still here..a prison of lives

38.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 08:30 am

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

Actually I don´t think that democracy should be defined as 50% +1, that is not democracy but rule of the majority. Democracy is where every citizen´s rights are respected, not 51% of the people´s dictatorship over the other 49%. And especially when it comes to changes to constitution, the changes should not be approved by 51%.

And.. I know a few people who voted "yes" but had NO idea what they were voting for.

 

Neither the referandum in 1982 nor the recent referandum were any signs of democracy.

 

1980 military coup and the following referandum (whether Kenan Evren was aware of it or not) was a US operation to eliminate all left wing/nationalist youth and change the existing moslem fundamentalists in power  led by Necmettin Erbakan (but also unitarian, anti-US and independent) with an alternative fundamentalist moslem group led by Recep Tayyip Erdogan (globalist, opportunist,  pro-US) . The operation was successful.

What seems extremely funny to me is that Turkish people are now being manipulated into thinking Recep Tayyip Erdogan may have the slightest intention to settle accounts with powers that paved the way to his own political rise. We shall see the results very soon !

 



Edited (9/15/2010) by AlphaF

39.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 11:26 am

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

Actually I don´t think that democracy should be defined as 50% +1, that is not democracy but rule of the majority. Democracy is where every citizen´s rights are respected, not 51% of the people´s dictatorship over the other 49%. And especially when it comes to changes to constitution, the changes should not be approved by 51%.

And.. I know a few people who voted "yes" but had NO idea what they were voting for.

 

I agree 100% about the definition of democracy " is where every citizen´s rights are respected, not 51% of the people´s dictatorship over the other 49%".

But can you say that  "49% of Turkish people´s citizenship rights have been disrespected with this referendum"?

can anybody say that?

if so..Could you tell me which  changes in this approved  amendments do that?

Which basic rights of Turkish citizens have taken away? 

The changes are noting to do  approving the sheria. It was just clipping the powers of the army and judiciary over the parliament..   

Well at least it was not like in 1982 referendum.. it was not done under the army rule. Opposition was not put in jail like in 1982. In 1982, you could only speak in favor of the new constitution. You would be put in jail or have ´troubles´ if you opposed publicly.. Even  the envelopes, where you put your colored paper´ were made very thin so the color of your vote could be seen..

As I said, these amendments were supposed to be opening the path for making a new full more democratic constitution..

That is what is happening right now..   

I hope this time all opposition parties will join the process..

 

40.       slavica
814 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 05:30 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

Actually I don´t think that democracy should be defined as 50% +1, that is not democracy but rule of the majority. Democracy is where every citizen´s rights are respected, not 51% of the people´s dictatorship over the other 49%. And especially when it comes to changes to constitution, the changes should not be approved by 51%.

 

 Can´t agree more!

41.       slavica
814 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 05:33 pm

 

Quoting elenagabriela

 

 

 I agree{#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}

I am from one of ex - communist country; my friends and I hoped more after 1989..but..all in vain...Indeed, all was a big lie, the life, the work...nowadays is better even if most of us dont want to see the truth; if you are able to work good and efficient your life is good; indeed, we are so far from Germany, Belgium or France, but we are not so hard working people; we like to receive a bit and to give a bit - my opinion; indeed, they are my peoples...anyway, as you said, the democracy and progress are so different from coruption; the coruption exist, maybe, everywhere, but that not means we dont need progress and change to better

 

If you both have noticed, I said "democracy". Because I don´t think we have democracy now, it is just a different kind of  dictatorship, call it "democracy", communism, socialism or whatever you want. It is nice if some had luck to get democracy and are happier today than before, but the fact is that some are not. Just changes don´t necessary mean progress and betterment. And I am not sure if Turkey with recent changes have got democracy or "democracy".

42.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 06:24 pm

I am really puzzled with your understandings about what democracy is..

I really am..

Can somebody explain it here that what is against the democracy here?

What is it not democratic here, in this process?

-There is a constitution there.

-where is it from? from 1982..from the army days..

Is that constitution more democratic than the one after the changes?

Are you saying that the one made one by the army is much better for the Turks? 

People wanted to change that (in fact, personally, I have wanted to change that constitution in my entire life).. what is the problem here? 

Then, how could we change that army made constitution? 

You just tell me!!! 

I will ask again:

-which part of the amendments are not democratic? 

-can you show which part?

If you are unable to show which part is anti democratic, how is it you are able to say that ´51% is asserting the majority dictatorship´? 

-what is it.. which part of amendment is trying to assert the "majority´s dictatorship"?

Please... Everybody should respect the decision of Turkish people..

43.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 06:45 pm

IF DEMOCRACY IS A GAME OF NUMBERS ONLY

 

Then, when 51% of the voting citizens vote to kick a certain group of other citizens whose ethnic group appears to breed noisy terorists out of the country; and such terorists are immediately deported - that is democracy !

There must be a limit to the noise public majority can endure ! {#emotions_dlg.alcoholics}

Right?



Edited (9/15/2010) by AlphaF
Edited (9/15/2010) by AlphaF

44.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 07:01 pm

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/09/eu-justice-commissioner-calls-frances-deporting-of-gypsies-a-disgrace/1?csp=34

 

Perfect democratic practices from France ! What is EU bitching about? {#emotions_dlg.alcoholics}



Edited (9/15/2010) by AlphaF

45.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 07:03 pm

That is part of the reason why I keep asking:

which part in that commandment  is against the human rights of the people and how?

For example:

-you can not bring sheria with the constitution or referendum (even with 99% majority. what about 1% basic rights?)

-you can not kick out Kurds with the referendum or constitution (it will be violating the basic  rights of living..).

So, is  anybody able to tell me which part?  



Edited (9/15/2010) by thehandsom

46.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 09:28 pm

Looks like Serbia really lost a lot after 1989. I´ve never realised it was that much, I mean, everybody from our block went on holiday or summer camps to Yugoslavia or Bulgaria and was always very pleased (not only because such trips were sponsored by the company/factory you worked for).

I´ve often wondered why the separation of USSR or Czechoslovakia were peaceful and Yugoslavia shed their share of blood. I still can´t understand why the majority of EU countries accepted breaking the law and recognised Kosovo. Serbs got more humiliation than any other European country after WWII.

Poland actually benefited from the falling down of communism. No more queuing for 3 days and not knowing what will still be on sale when it´s your turn. No more arrests and biased courts, not more paramilitary troops clubbing people to death or shooting at protesting miners. Freedom. Sure, there is no social care like we had. But there´s ownership. You have to take a massive mortgage to buy a 38m2 (124sq ft) one bedroom flat, but it is yours. Nobody can get the idea like you have too many metres/person and accommodate a stranger to your flat...well..like to everything, there upsides and downsides, i suppose...

On the subject, don´t most western countries have Supreme Court Judges nominated by the president?

47.       vineyards
1954 posts
 16 Sep 2010 Thu 09:47 am

We say the Balkans but there are indeed subgroups within the region. Those in the South are warm blooded people, we could group these people together as Bosnians, Croatians, Serbs, Turks, Bulgarians, Albanians Greeks and Macedonians. These people are quite different from those in the North. They are open to foreign influence and are affected by all positive and negative trends evolving around them but they have a strong nationalist outlook and a deep hatred of anyone or anything that may jeopardize their unity.

This is the reason why all these countries held on to their national identities despite being a part of a Muslim nation for 500-600 years. When you read the individual histories of those nations, you will often find a hero whose biggest achievement was beating the Turks at an epic war. Therefore there is also an East-West polarization in the Balkans. Being muslims, Bosnians are still considered East and their very existence in Yugoslavia was a reason for grunt and grudge.

We could consider Romania as a cross-culture. Being related to Italians they are essentially South but since they are outside the major conflicts of the Balkans they are a bit North as well.

 

slavica and elenagabriela liked this message
48.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 16 Sep 2010 Thu 10:33 am

 

Quoting vineyards

We could consider Romania as a cross-culture.  

 

 I agree...

49.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 21 Sep 2010 Tue 01:32 am

You WERE like a sheep!!


We always used to see you  as ignorant, uneducated and an obstacle of the advancement of this country..We would see you  as you and your continuing conservatism would never understand us as the educated, enlightened and the real owner of this country. This was making us really content. But if you accepted the  enlighten that we were giving you, if you were like us, how happy we would be..

As you know, we established this country........


what did you do now? you proved you are ignorant, again, you have given 58 % YES to some higgledy-piggledy questions as if you did understand what it was about as if your capacity is enough to understand the problems of Turkey. See, we would continue to think like that happily because  we liked our assumptions this way. We would be happy with our privileges with our superiority and we would console ourselves with your ignorance for each problem.. 

But a survey smashed our dreams into pieces and confused our minds about  who is more ignorant, who is more biased, who is more status quo supporter..

Is it true my brother, when asked why you voted YES in the referendum and third of them in first four are :
-You thought Turkey will be more free 58.2 %
-You wanted to change the constitution of coup 42.4 %
-You wanted the judiciary to be independent 29.9 %

is it true my brother you gave above answers?

We always assumed only us, people who lived in the west of Turkey, on the shores, would protect values like  ´freedom, coup, independent  judiciary´. Our brains were conditioned to think like that.. Why did you smash our dream world,  my brother, what are we going to protect now? how can we exist with our  status quo with which we even supported the coup, only to be against AKP.

We would continue to say "You are like a sheep" brother

We would say ´this ignorant people´ were guilty of all these, my brother..
we were glad to get away from our traumas that way by brother..
We were making ourselves relaxed this way and always being right was sweet..
What did you do to us my brother?


======
Above is an article, written for the people who think that people who voted for YES because they are ignorant and backwards!!

This is the news where it shows the survey about the people why they said YES or NO:
http://www.haber3.com/turkiye-neden-evethayir-dedi-605624h.htm


in a nutshell

why people said NO?
-I did not want AKP to settle in the governement 48%
-I said NO to Erdogan 46%
-I did not want the goverment to capture the judiciary 40%
-I did not want Erdogan to escape from judiciary 28%

why people said YES?
-I thought Turkey will be more free 58.2 %
-For Erdogan 46%
-I wanted to change the constitution of coup 42.4 %
-I wanted the judiciary to be independent 29.9 %

 

I dont think above requires any comments but it can clearly be said that :

People who voted YES were voted for the constitution ammendments, people who voted for NO, voted to oppose AKP, not for the contents of the amendments!! (It makes sense because, I know almost everybody opposed this coup constitution.. But for the sake of the politics, the opposition parties supported the constitution of the coup!!)

´Freedom, coup, independent  judiciary etc´ were the concern of the YES voters.. Not the NO voters it seems

 

50.       turkishcobra
607 posts
 21 Sep 2010 Tue 01:57 am

 

Quoting thehandsom


in a nutshell

why people said NO?
-I did not want AKP to settle in the governement 48%
-I said NO to Erdogan 46%
-I did not want the goverment to capture the judiciary 40%
-I did not want Erdogan to escape from judiciary 28%

why people said YES?
-I thought Turkey will be more free 58.2 %
-For Erdogan 46%
-I wanted to change the constitution of coup 42.4 %
-I wanted the judiciary to be independent 29.9 %

 

I dont think above requires any comments but it can clearly be said that :

People who voted YES were voted for the constitution ammendments, people who voted for NO, voted to oppose AKP, not for the contents of the amendments!! (It makes sense because, I know almost everybody opposed this coup constitution.. But for the sake of the politics, the opposition parties supported the constitution of the coup!!)

´Freedom, coup, independent  judiciary etc´ were the concern of the YES voters.. Not the NO voters it seems

 

 

Hahaha, you are really funny!

 

Anti-Erdoğan voters are %46 and voters for Erdoğan are %46, too! Is this your way of voting for ammendments? Or are they ammendments of Erdoğan? Contradiction loves you, man

 

 

 



Edited (9/21/2010) by turkishcobra
Edited (9/21/2010) by turkishcobra

51.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 21 Sep 2010 Tue 02:24 am

 

Quoting turkishcobra

 

 

Hahaha, you are really funny!

 

Anti-Erdoğan voters are %46 and voters for Erdoğan are %46, too! Is this your way of voting for ammendments? Or are they ammendments of Erdoğan? Contradiction loves you, man

 

 

 

 

Just before going to bed, you made me laugh here..lol

So, you have given up and accepted  "NO voters had almost nothing to do with the ammendments but political´  but trying to prove YES voters were politically motivated too? 

Hay allah ya..

Look,  clearly, it was the constitution of a coup (everybody accepts it).. That is the bottom line!!

The thickist line is, of course, "The Anatolian people are not as ignorant as you think"

 

52.       turkishcobra
607 posts
 21 Sep 2010 Tue 02:33 am

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

Just before going to bed, you made me laugh here..lol

So, you have given up and accepted  "NO voters had almost nothing to do with the ammendments but political´  but trying to prove YES voters were politically motivated too? 

Hay allah ya..

Look,  clearly, it was the constitution of a coup (everybody accepts it).. That is the bottom line!!

The thickist line is, of course, "The Anatolian people are not as ignorant as you think"

 

 

Good for me that I made you laugh only going before bed, you´re making me laugh every time!

Who said you that I think as "Anatolian people are ignorant"? Stop talking nonsense, from very start I said I respected everybody´s ideas and I´m not interested in who voted yes or no like you!

I never called "ignorant" or anything else the people who voted YES, I have just criticised the method! Read the texts carefully before blaming on people, okay? We´re Anatolian people, too, and I´m proud of it, we haven´t been send from space, so watch your words! Enough is enough!

No more keyboard efforts for you, I told what I had to, and leaving you alone with your ideas!

 

 

 

 



Edited (9/21/2010) by turkishcobra

53.       armegon
1872 posts
 21 Sep 2010 Tue 05:47 am

If I had a chance to ask these people, I could ask maybe "in which part of Turkey can any people live more freely? in secularist, oppressing and coup loving İzmir/Karşıyaka where people there 80% "No" or in city of Bayburt where the people there voted 85% "Yes"?" a relative question maybe. Bayburt should be one of the castle of democratization and most free city from now on then.  Contradiction here? Iraq is more free now as well after democratization! Someones are lying to people with parroting the same decorated expressions, democratization and more freedom, perhaps that is why 58.2% replied like this, thats the all thing they hear from media all day...

Quoting thehandsom

why people said YES?
-I thought Turkey will be more free 58.2 %

 

 

54.       armegon
1872 posts
 21 Sep 2010 Tue 05:51 am

 

Quoting armegon

Anyway another important change that most people forgot is the check of actions of political power by Judiciary system which seems much weakened by changes, thus Judiciary system for instance cannot sue any action of political power overseeing the commonwealth. I guess this is one is the most important change that current political power desire...

 

 

First Applications of "Yes"??

http://www.odatv.com/n.php?n=evetin-ilk-uygulamasi--2009101200

 

 

55.       si++
3785 posts
 21 Sep 2010 Tue 11:18 am

 

Quoting armegon

 

First Applications of "Yes"??

http://www.odatv.com/n.php?n=evetin-ilk-uygulamasi--2009101200

 

 

Is this the way Turkie will be more democtratic??? Well done yes-voters!!

 

56.       turkishcobra
607 posts
 21 Sep 2010 Tue 11:31 am

 

Quoting armegon

If I had a chance to ask these people, I could ask maybe "in which part of Turkey can any people live more freely? in secularist, oppressing and coup loving İzmir/Karşıyaka where people there 80% "No" or in city of Bayburt where the people there voted 85% "Yes"?" a relative question maybe. Bayburt should be one of the castle of democratization and most free city from now on then.  Contradiction here? Iraq is more free now as well after democratization! Someones are lying to people with parroting the same decorated expressions, democratization and more freedom, perhaps that is why 58.2% replied like this, thats the all thing they hear from media all day...

Quoting thehandsom

why people said YES?
-I thought Turkey will be more free 58.2 %

 

 

 

Great answer armegon! I recommend this fake democracy lovers who blame on NO-voters as "coup-supporter, anti-democtratic" to come, see and learn the democracy and freedom in Trakya! These fake democracy lovers who blame on others just because of their political views have a lot to learn from people of Trakya!

thanks.

 

 

 

 

 



Edited (9/21/2010) by turkishcobra
Edited (9/21/2010) by turkishcobra

57.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 21 Sep 2010 Tue 11:38 am

 

Quoting armegon

If I had a chance to ask these people, I could ask maybe "in which part of Turkey can any people live more freely? in secularist, oppressing and coup loving İzmir/Karşıyaka where people there 80% "No" or in city of Bayburt where the people there voted 85% "Yes"?" a relative question maybe. Bayburt should be one of the castle of democratization and most free city from now on then.  Contradiction here? Iraq is more free now as well after democratization! Someones are lying to people with parroting the same decorated expressions, democratization and more freedom, perhaps that is why 58.2% replied like this, thats the all thing they hear from media all day...

Quoting thehandsom

why people said YES?
-I thought Turkey will be more free 58.2 %

 

 

 

Well obviously, that tells us something.. is it not?

I think there is no need to say that Turkey is one of the worst countries in the world as far as distribution of wealth concerned.. ´The elite´ gets the chunk of the wealth.. (I dont think I need to mention that people in izmir belongs to that elite) ..of course, that elite is fighting with everything in order to keep the things are as it is. They dont care about the democracy or human rights or anything.. (that is clear from the tables..) They did not vote for the constitutional amendments.. All they care is to keep what they have.. They are the protector of the status quo. The status quo which is not enough for the proper democracy has to go/ a better democracy has to come and  people are trying to do it with voting /parliament/ the means of democracy... (btw..if the people voted with the idea that they were voting for the amendments not for political parties, the yes votes would have been much much higher)   

What do you have in your hands in the end now? To tell people that ´democracy is NOT a good thing, look at Iraq´? 

Obviously, people of Turkey,  think the opposite and it is not a winning argument..

 

58.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 21 Sep 2010 Tue 11:48 am

 

Quoting si++

 

Is this the way Turkie will be more democtratic??? Well done yes-voters!!

 

 

Well, I am not sure that is the result of the constitutional changes or generic behavior of the Turkish judiciary. 

But where were you guys when hundreds of writers were in the courts because of 301 (the old constitution you have been so passionate to save), did you open your mouth when there were thousands of cases of human rights abuses, tortures, killings because of the power given to the authorities with the old constitution? Did you feel ashamed when Turkey was convicted in EU human right courts because our own citizens could not find the justice in our biased judiciary or  prosecute the torturers, the killers with our constitution?  

 I wish you could follow up all other cases in the past but i am glad you are following up these type of cases now. lol

59.       si++
3785 posts
 22 Sep 2010 Wed 04:39 pm

Just an outcome of victory of "Yes" votes:

 

A group of people attacked opening ceremonies of two different art galleries in central İstanbul and injured 5 people. It is claimed that the attack took place due to an objection by neighbouring residents to ‘alcohol’ consuming during the ceremonies…

 

Source: here



Edited (9/22/2010) by si++ [Yes]

60.       scalpel
1472 posts
 22 Sep 2010 Wed 09:24 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

Well, I am not sure that is the result of the constitutional changes or generic behavior of the Turkish judiciary. 

But where were you guys when hundreds of writers were in the courts because of 301 (the old constitution you have been so passionate to save), did you open your mouth when there were thousands of cases of human rights abuses, tortures, killings because of the power given to the authorities with the old constitution? Did you feel ashamed when Turkey was convicted in EU human right courts because our own citizens could not find the justice in our biased judiciary or  prosecute the torturers, the killers with our constitution?  

 I wish you could follow up all other cases in the past but i am glad you are following up these type of cases now. lol

 

Just to inform you: 301 was not included in the package as it was already changed in 18.04.2008

61.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 Sep 2010 Thu 03:05 am

Obviously there are not any elites anymore but pro AKP supporters. And if you are not one, probably you take a deep breath in Silivri prison in such a democratic way, so democratic and just that people have been imprisoned for more than two years without knowing their guilt. And by the way these pro AKP supporters lets say lickers prefer to live with coup loving people´s of Aegean region instead of democratic Bingöl or prefer to drink in status quo Kadıköy instead of freedom castle Esenler.

The map I posted shows a deep division of TR started with Türk-Kürt, Alevi-Sunni and now evetçi-hayırcı. People mostly suspicious of eachother, there is no trust any foundation of state, and I think in this case it is better to forget about these democracy lies. Definitely 48% who voted "No" do not trust any action of current government, interpreting this, those people do not care about democracy, is just foolish. And this also does not mean those people do not want a new constitution.

Thinking that "Yes" voters voted for the ammendments is of course wrong, in the end most of them are not constitution professors as well as the "No" voters. But many of them obeyed the constitution professor in US who resurrected the deads to vote "Yes", maybe that is why number of voters skyrocketing...

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

 

62.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 Sep 2010 Thu 03:14 am

And where are those democracy and human rights lovers when people are being imprisoned for years without being sentenced? 

Actually it is not about following up any case in Turkish Judiciary system, it is about from now on Turkish Judiciary system cannot control over the actions of governments? Means like people of TR cannot ask where their taxes going...

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

Well, I am not sure that is the result of the constitutional changes or generic behavior of the Turkish judiciary. 

But where were you guys when hundreds of writers were in the courts because of 301 (the old constitution you have been so passionate to save), did you open your mouth when there were thousands of cases of human rights abuses, tortures, killings because of the power given to the authorities with the old constitution? Did you feel ashamed when Turkey was convicted in EU human right courts because our own citizens could not find the justice in our biased judiciary or  prosecute the torturers, the killers with our constitution?  

 I wish you could follow up all other cases in the past but i am glad you are following up these type of cases now. lol

 

 

63.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 17 Apr 2017 Mon 02:02 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

...

It is a great day for Turkey and Turkish democracy!!

Ankara, Istanbul, Izmir.. Everywhere.. 

Turkish people have broken the chains of 12th of September.. 

This is a double festival!! 

The best ever festival for last 30 years..

...

Now, we want more.. This was the ammendments for ´being able to make a  new constitution´. We want a new one, a new constitution which will crown our republic...    

 

 

It was September 2010..

You were happy like a kid with his favourite candy floss..

that fluffy ball of pure sugar must have melted in your mouth in a couple of years..

there remained nothing but a sticky stick in your hand..

"we want a new one, a new constitution which will crown our republic..."

this sounds so fantastic..  

well, here is a new constitution which you couldn´t wait for..

which would crown our republic..

just wondering.. still happy as you were in 2010?.. and still think the same way?

 

 



Edited (4/17/2017) by scalpel - -

64.       kertmeyenkele
100 posts
 17 Apr 2017 Mon 02:44 pm

 

Quoting scalpel - -

 

 

It was September 2010..

You were happy like a kid with his favourite candy floss..

that fluffy ball of pure sugar must have melted in your mouth in a couple of years..

there remained nothing but a sticky stick in your hand..

"we want a new one, a new constitution which will crown our republic..."

this sounds so fantastic..  

well, here is a new constitution which you couldn´t wait for..

which would crown our republic..

just wondering.. still happy as you were in 2010?.. and still think the same way?

 

 

 

New constitution?

Is there anything left as far as Separation of powers is concerned?

 

As per Montesquieu, if there is no sepation of powers, then there is no constitution either.......

 

 

65.       denizli
957 posts
 17 Apr 2017 Mon 02:46 pm

So how long will Erdo─čan be in power for?

And is it true some of the new constitution contradicts Atatürk?



Edited (4/17/2017) by denizli

66.       kertmeyenkele
100 posts
 17 Apr 2017 Mon 03:25 pm

Interesting read:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/16/rip-turkey-1921-2017/

67.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 17 Apr 2017 Mon 05:09 pm

 

Quoting denizli

So how long will Erdo─čan be in power for?

And is it true some of the new constitution contradicts Atatürk?

 

a) till he dies..

b) unfortunately yes, it is true..

 

68.       denizli
957 posts
 17 Apr 2017 Mon 05:34 pm

 

Quoting kertmeyenkele

Interesting read:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/16/rip-turkey-1921-2017/

 

After reading that, it almost seems like Atatürk merely wanted to align Turkey with the West, disappointing Eastern Turkey. And Erdo─čan merely wants to align Turkey with the East, disappointing Western Turkey.

So are there many Turkish people in the East or Turkish Conservatives who are not fans of Atatürk or something?

bydand liked this message
69.       kertmeyenkele
100 posts
 17 Apr 2017 Mon 07:35 pm

 

Quoting denizli

 

 

After reading that, it almost seems like Atatürk merely wanted to align Turkey with the West, disappointing Eastern Turkey. And Erdo─čan merely wants to align Turkey with the East, disappointing Western Turkey.

So are there many Turkish people in the East or Turkish Conservatives who are not fans of Atatürk or something?

 

There are haters let alone being "not fan of" him.

70.       denizli
957 posts
 01 May 2017 Mon 09:50 pm

 

Quoting kertmeyenkele

 

 

There are haters let alone being "not fan of" him.

 

1. So what does the result actually mean i.e. can Erdo─čan make his own laws and/or reject any laws passed in parliament?

2. What is a specific example of something where this result rejects something from Atatürk?

71.       kertmeyenkele
100 posts
 02 May 2017 Tue 09:46 am

 

Quoting denizli

 

 

1. So what does the result actually mean i.e. can Erdo─čan make his own laws and/or reject any laws passed in parliament?

2. What is a specific example of something where this result rejects something from Atatürk?

 

Turkey is going through a transition period slowly.

The ultimate goal is to establish a sharia state.

I can only predict somethings for now:

- The name of the country can be changed. My prediction "Anatolia Islamic State"

- RTE can declare himself as a new khalifa.

- Latin letters can be aborted and Arabic alphabet can be adopted again.

- Heejap can be compulsary (like in IRI)

- Imam wedding can be accepted again and wedding upto 4 wives may be lawful.

- I don´t know what´s more. We´ll see. Again these are my predictions only but I may refer to this post in the future when some of them indeed turn into a reality.

 

Hard times are coming for Turkish women. I can only feel sorry for them.

 

 

(71 Messages in 8 pages - View all)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Add reply to this discussion




Turkish Dictionary
Turkish Chat
Open mini chat
New in Forums
.
ikicihan: ,
E-T I am more of a listner than talker
harp00n: She has never been one to listen to others, she does want she wants, a...
E-T: I am shocked I tell you, shocked.
harp00n: Sana ... ┼čok oldum. ┼×ok...
Question
qdemir: The ... is OK. ... translates as ... You may omit ... Ben ondan &ccedi...
Question
denizli: (sorry ...
possessive case help me..
mrdr: Hi,Could you please write whole sentence? If I know the sentence,...
Grammar Textbook
qdemir: The e-book version is now $4.99 instead of $9.99 at Amazon.com till th...
TURK-ENG. .THX...
mrdr: Hi, This is more difficult than other sentence. I try to translate. ...
TUR-ENG thank you...
mrdr: Hi,It is very difficult to protect real ... I translated in Go...
Eid
bydand: Iyi Bayramlar.
T├╝rk├žem kontrol edebilir misin l├╝tfen?
john250: yardimin ... te┼čekkur ederim. Hersey anladim
T├╝rk├žem kontrol edebilir mis─▒n l├╝tfen?
john250: yard─▒m─▒n ... te┼čekkur eder─▒m
Random Pictures of Turkey
Add thumbnails like this to your site
Most commented