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Great day for Turkey and Turkish democracy!!
(71 Messages in 8 pages - View all)
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10.       si++
3785 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 10:05 am

 

Quoting catwoman

"Among the 26 articles comprising the package, changes are proposed in the way senior judges are selected.

Opposition parties, including the CHP secularists, argue that these will enable the government to exert more influence over the judiciary."

 

Do you think this really is a victory to democracy? No, I don´t

 

Court official in post-referendum warning

Instead of forward, referendum was a backlash for Turkey, a senior court official argues.

Court official in post-referendum warning

A senior court official has warned that the independence of the courts could be brought into question after Turks approved changes to the constitution.

Kadir Özbek, who heads the Judges and Prosecutors Higher Board, or HSYK said Monday Turkey is at point that is “more backward than yesterday.”

About 58 percent voted in favor of government-proposed amendments to the constitution crafted after a 1980 military coup, which includes provisions to make the military more accountable to civilian courts.

Some 42 percent voted against on Sunday, fearing the changes would give the ruling Islamic-oriented party powers to appoint judges and prosecutors close to the party, and allow it to advance a pro-Islamic agenda.

Annette Faye liked this message
11.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:20 am

 

Quoting turkishcobra

 

YES = %57,94

NO = %42,06

 

These rates mean half of the community approves the package and the other half doesn´t. Constitutional changes are required social consensus, because no matter if approve or not, all of the citizens are going to be governed by SAME package. Can you see any consensus here? So how can we talk about the victory of democracy?

The same thing would be valid if YES was %42 and NO was %57. Ruling-parties must find a common way, they can´t serve a package and pull themselves back, saying "this is this, like or not". Unfortunately, both ruling-party and the opposition parties turned it into election and it looked like a vote of confidence for AKP.

Türkiye is a heterogeneous community; secularists, conservatives and other kind of views live together and they have to deal with all of them. It doesn´t mean that this package is democtratic since it is prepared by a conversative ruling-party and voted by a relatively conversative community.

 

thanks.

 

 

 

What do you mean not democratic? All the parties are saying that ´NOW WE HAVE TO RESPECT THE DECISION OF TURKISH PEOPLE´. 

In the end it is a referendum and 50% votes+1 wins..

What do you mean no it is not democratic? Did people go to ballots under the arms? were there tanks on the streets? Anybody´s opinion suppressed?  Did somebody threaten the voters? (btw.. that is how this current constitution was approved in 1980s) 

Well, I wish the package was prepared by another party, a real social democratic party for example.. But did you see any alternatives? I mean, did any party come and and say ´this is my alternative proposal´?

Do you see any of the articles which is against the essence of democracy or against the people basic rights in the changes? if you believe there are, bring it on.. lets see what they are and how undemocratic they are..

I wish this was not turned into vote of confidence for AKP. Because AKP is a party and as any of the other parties they will go away from governing Turkey. They are temporary.. But this changes are for the future..

If people were able to think they were voting for the constitution only, the percentage would be much higher.. But anyway, as you see, now they pressed the button for a brand new FULL constitution.. I hope all parties will join this time instead of whining..  

 

12.       slavica
814 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:23 am

 

The US and European Union have welcomed the result of the Turkish constitutional referendum.

 

Of course, I also wish the best for Turkish people, but from the experiance of my country I know one thing: whenever US and European Unione were pleased with what we´ve done, it was bad for our people. And with such results of referendum, with (almost) balanced amounts of YES and NO, I realy must express my doubts about the positive effects of Constitutional changes for the Turkish people.

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13.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:31 am

Demogracy is the ruling of the majority of the people. Even 51% would be the majority. Some people are afraid this will increase the power of a religiously focussed party, but if that is the party that was elected, than that is what the people want.

14.       slavica
814 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:40 am

 

Quoting elenagabriela

 

 

dont forget about the ex - communist countries....

 

I am from ex-communist country and I don´t see "democracy" brought us much good! On the contrary, what Western democracy brought us was increase of nationalism, wars, poverty of mayority and extreme wealth of a couple, anarchy and increase of crimes, "blood, sweat and tears"...

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15.       si++
3785 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:45 am

 

Quoting slavica

 

The US and European Union have welcomed the result of the Turkish constitutional referendum.

 

Of course, I also wish the best for Turkish people, but from the experiance of my country I know one thing: whenever US and European Unione were pleased with what we´ve done, it was bad for our people. And with such results of referendum, with (almost) balanced amounts of YES and NO, I realy must express my doubts about the positive effects of Constitutional changes for the Turkish people.

Well said Slavica! My exact feelings!

 

16.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:46 am

 

Quoting slavica

 

The US and European Union have welcomed the result of the Turkish constitutional referendum.

 

Of course, I also wish the best for Turkish people, but from the experiance of my country I know one thing: whenever US and European Unione were pleased with what we´ve done, it was bad for our people.

 

 you are right, it were the same things happened in my country; but if I am looking to past, 20 years or more ago, when we were a communist country, nowadays are better; even if most of our peoples are saying - in the past was better; no I dont agrre them; I am for progress and change; even nowadays I am working hard, I am happy to be free; even most our politicians are corupted, I am not afraid to express my thoughts; and the most achievment being an UE country is travelling without visa abroad, to western Europe countries{#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}

maybe for the turkish peoples will be hard in the beggining but all new beginning means sacrifice...

I hope all will be better, turkish peoples deserve it- a hard working people...

cptezgin liked this message
17.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:52 am

 

Quoting turkishcobra

 

YES = %57,94

NO = %42,06

 

These rates mean half of the community approves the package and the other half doesn´t. Constitutional changes are required social consensus, because no matter if approve or not, all of the citizens are going to be governed by SAME package. Can you see any consensus here? So how can we talk about the victory of democracy?

The same thing would be valid if YES was %42 and NO was %57. Ruling-parties must find a common way, they can´t serve a package and pull themselves back, saying "this is this, like or not". Unfortunately, both ruling-party and the opposition parties turned it into election and it looked like a vote of confidence for AKP.

Türkiye is a heterogeneous community; secularists, conservatives and other kind of views live together and they have to deal with all of them. It doesn´t mean that this package is democtratic since it is prepared by a conversative ruling-party and voted by a relatively conversative community.

 

thanks.

 

 

I also want to add one more thing really:

I despise people who think conservatives are less people then themselves.. 

This is reminding me ´ignorant people syndrome´ of Turkish ruling elite who gets kind of afraid  and  startled when they get close to those conservatives.. That arrogant elite thinks that ´these ignorant conservatives dont know whet they are voting for´, that elite thinks that the people of Turkey is conservative and stupid because they think they are educated..

I really despise that!! 

 

18.       turkishcobra
607 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 12:02 pm

 

Party elections and constitutional changes are DIFFERENT things. When %51 of majority votes a ruling-party, %49 of minority has chance to be represented by alternative oppositional parties or coalitions. But in constitutional changes, that minority of %49 does NOT have a chance to be represented by alternative articles. This is what I´m trying to say.

And by the way, what about the people that declare "no-voters" as "coup-supporter, anti-democratic" ? Everybody is same, no difference, so no need to label opposite ideas!

 

thanks.



Edited (9/14/2010) by turkishcobra
Edited (9/14/2010) by turkishcobra

Annette Faye and slavica liked this message
19.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 12:39 pm

 

Quoting turkishcobra

 

Party elections and constitutional changes are DIFFERENT things. When %51 of majority votes a ruling-party, %49 of minority has chance to be represented by alternative oppositional parties or coalitions. But in constitutional changes, that minority of %49 does NOT have a chance to be represented by alternative articles. This is what I´m trying to say.

And by the way, what about the people that declare "no-voters" as "coup-supporter, anti-democratic" ? Everybody is same, no difference, so no need to label opposite ideas!

 

thanks.

 

Well this is just a start.. A new constitution is on its way.. So no need to be alarmed.

These changes "opened the way" for making a new constitution.. 

As I asked, I would love to know which part of changes you did not like !!

because i have this feeling that almost all NO voters did not know why they said no.. (Most of them were just trying to oppose the government. Not the changes!!)

20.       turkishcobra
607 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 01:04 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

 

because i have this feeling that almost all NO voters did not know why they said no.. What a big contradiction is being disturbed of YES-voters to be called "they don´t know what they voted for" and then saying "I have this feeling that almost all NO voters didn´t know what they said NO" !

Huh? What is this? A camera joke?

 

 

 

 

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