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Great day for Turkey and Turkish democracy!!
(71 Messages in 8 pages - View all)
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30.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 09:55 pm

There was this nice analysis about who lost in this referendum:


-The army and judiciary (They lost their power. They are not a political force any more)
-MHP -ultra right wings- (lost serious amount of vote..Or his supporters did not listen to their party)
-CHP -main opposition party-(They still have not registered that "they can not be in politics as the lawyers in ergenekon case" and they can not win anything without producing a clear solution to Kurdish problem and they can not ignore scarf wearing  conservative population )
-Turkish left (Some of them become more right wing than MHP)
-BDP (PKK) (Some kurds showed us that if it is not for the right thing, they will defy PKK and its political wings. The changes have accepted without their contribution -with 6 million difference. With this referendum, BDP-PKK- and its politcal groups were planning to have more cards in their hands to negotiate but it did not happen)

31.       slavica
814 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:19 pm

 

Quoting elenagabriela

 

 

 you are right, it were the same things happened in my country; but if I am looking to past, 20 years or more ago, when we were a communist country, nowadays are better; even if most of our peoples are saying - in the past was better; no I dont agrre them; I am for progress and change; even nowadays I am working hard, I am happy to be free; even most our politicians are corupted, I am not afraid to express my thoughts; and the most achievment being an UE country is travelling without visa abroad, to western Europe countries{#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}

maybe for the turkish peoples will be hard in the beggining but all new beginning means sacrifice...

I hope all will be better, turkish peoples deserve it- a hard working people...

 

Elena, I completely understand you and I´m glad if fall of communism brought happiness and prosperity to your country. I know what life was in your country under Causesku, I´m old enough to remember. But not all communist countries were the same. My (ex) country, Yugoslavia, was not a part of Eastern Block and we had much more freedom and much higher standard of living than surrounding communist countries: we were allowed to leave the country whenever we wanted, we travelled all around the world with no visas, we didn´t have much, but it was enough for decent life, it was safe to walk around day and night with no fear. From the other hand, in your country and most other communist countries DIDN´T happen the same things as here: civil war, economic embargo, disintegration. As the result, an average citizen of Serbia lives much worse today than 20 years ago. Simply, just not being afraid to express my thoughts doesn´t satisfy me - I want salary for my work, glass of milk with no waiting in the line and place in kindergarten for my grandchild, quite streets with no gangs (or scum, as one of members here said) and drug dealers at them, I want at least as decent life for me and my family as we had under the communism.

 

And what will be destiny of Turkish people after changes they voted with such a symbolic majority? Who can guarantee that it will be like destiny of your people and not like destiny of mine?

32.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 11:57 pm

 

Quoting slavica

 

 

Elena, I completely understand you and I´m glad if fall of communism brought happiness and prosperity to your country. I know what life was in your country under Causesku, I´m old enough to remember. But not all communist countries were the same. My (ex) country, Yugoslavia, was not a part of Eastern Block and we had much more freedom and much higher standard of living than surrounding communist countries: we were allowed to leave the country whenever we wanted, we travelled all around the world with no visas, we didn´t have much, but it was enough for decent life, it was safe to walk around day and night with no fear. From the other hand, in your country and most other communist countries DIDN´T happen the same things as here: civil war, economic embargo, disintegration. As the result, an average citizen of Serbia lives much worse today than 20 years ago. Simply, just not being afraid to express my thoughts doesn´t satisfy me - I want salary for my work, glass of milk with no waiting in the line and place in kindergarten for my grandchild, quite streets with no gangs (or scum, as one of members here said) and drug dealers at them, I want at least as decent life for me and my family as we had under the communism.

 

And what will be destiny of Turkish people after changes they voted with such a symbolic majority? Who can guarantee that it will be like destiny of your people and not like destiny of mine?

Wow

Thank you very much for this honest account of what happened in your country in your view. I always wanted to know what people would think after all those.

I always thought something went wrong when disintegrating and I blamed the supressed nationalism for that.. I believe you could have lived as a one single country if nationalism had been curbed succesfully. I am not  blaming the Serbs only  there though..

 

33.       barkindo
22 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 12:28 am

First of all i would like to congratulate the Turkish people for their courage to for change, despite the fact that so many people fear that this change might be the first step to anarchy.  

It is important, if you want to have a united, strong Turkey, that justice must be done and seen to be done.  Past wrongs have to be put right.  All people need to have  a fair say in their country.  I think the referendum was a first step towards it.  

If the majority of Turkish people want to be ruled by a pro-Islamic party, it is not necessary a bad thing, as long as people have a real choice in democratic elections.  

34.       vineyards
1954 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 01:11 am

Congratulating Turkish people for their courage? 91% of the Turkish people voted in favour of the 82 constitution with a record high turnout. They deliberately supported the regime then. Our people are quite opportunistic, they support the one who has the biggest power.

35.       catwoman
8933 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 05:22 am

 

Quoting thehandsom

What do you mean not democratic? All the parties are saying that ´NOW WE HAVE TO RESPECT THE DECISION OF TURKISH PEOPLE´. 

In the end it is a referendum and 50% votes+1 wins..

 

Actually I don´t think that democracy should be defined as 50% +1, that is not democracy but rule of the majority. Democracy is where every citizen´s rights are respected, not 51% of the people´s dictatorship over the other 49%. And especially when it comes to changes to constitution, the changes should not be approved by 51%.

And.. I know a few people who voted "yes" but had NO idea what they were voting for.

slavica and turkishcobra liked this message
36.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 07:52 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

 

 

 It isn´t democracy that brought you these problems, it´s the corruption of the people who are in power that brought you these problems. This has nothing to do with democracy or communism for that matter. Where there is corruption, there is suffering. No matter what the political system is.

 

I think the people who were killed for expression their opinions under communist ruling don´t agree with you that "everything is much worse" now. People always look at the past with rose-tinted glasses. Under communism a lot of countries had a few good years, because everything was based on a lie. The countries were not sustainable. Jobs were created were no actual work was needed. The people in management weren´t the best managers, but the ones who could suck up the most to political leaders. And I remember the images of people standing in long lines, waiting for a piece of bread. After democracy, this image hasn´t changed 100%. Why not? Because the same people are still in power.

 

 I agree{#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}

I am from one of ex - communist country; my friends and I hoped more after 1989..but..all in vain...Indeed, all was a big lie, the life, the work...nowadays is better even if most of us dont want to see the truth; if you are able to work good and efficient your life is good; indeed, we are so far from Germany, Belgium or France, but we are not so hard working people; we like to receive a bit and to give a bit - my opinion; indeed, they are my peoples...anyway, as you said, the democracy and progress are so different from coruption; the coruption exist, maybe, everywhere, but that not means we dont need progress and change to better

37.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 08:09 am

 

Quoting slavica

 

 

Elena, I completely understand you and I´m glad if fall of communism brought happiness and prosperity to your country. I know what life was in your country under Causesku, I´m old enough to remember. But not all communist countries were the same. My (ex) country, Yugoslavia, was not a part of Eastern Block and we had much more freedom and much higher standard of living than surrounding communist countries: we were allowed to leave the country whenever we wanted, we travelled all around the world with no visas, we didn´t have much, but it was enough for decent life, it was safe to walk around day and night with no fear. From the other hand, in your country and most other communist countries DIDN´T happen the same things as here: civil war, economic embargo, disintegration. As the result, an average citizen of Serbia lives much worse today than 20 years ago. Simply, just not being afraid to express my thoughts doesn´t satisfy me - I want salary for my work, glass of milk with no waiting in the line and place in kindergarten for my grandchild, quite streets with no gangs (or scum, as one of members here said) and drug dealers at them, I want at least as decent life for me and my family as we had under the communism.

 

And what will be destiny of Turkish people after changes they voted with such a symbolic majority? Who can guarantee that it will be like destiny of your people and not like destiny of mine?

 

 indeed, the ex Yugoslavia wasnt like my country; indeed I disagree with your disintegration and war...but I think that is not a result of democracy; like in my country were, maybe, a lot of politicians who got the power and privileges after 1990; but I cant forget the `80 years in my country - I was in highschool and after in faculty; we hadnt had light in our home, we learnt in school in cold , because not warm for rooms; there was not milk for babies, not food for people..anything; today all common things for a normal life exist; indeed, they are so expensive; indeed, there are drugs dealers here (but they are everywhere); there are  scums..but all is much better here; indeed, I dont receive the correct money for my work (like I will in another western country) because of coruption, but I can do an extra job..anyway, I dont regret communism, it was a wound of my youth.

I can imagine very well what was my life if the communism was still here..a prison of lives

38.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 08:30 am

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

Actually I don´t think that democracy should be defined as 50% +1, that is not democracy but rule of the majority. Democracy is where every citizen´s rights are respected, not 51% of the people´s dictatorship over the other 49%. And especially when it comes to changes to constitution, the changes should not be approved by 51%.

And.. I know a few people who voted "yes" but had NO idea what they were voting for.

 

Neither the referandum in 1982 nor the recent referandum were any signs of democracy.

 

1980 military coup and the following referandum (whether Kenan Evren was aware of it or not) was a US operation to eliminate all left wing/nationalist youth and change the existing moslem fundamentalists in power  led by Necmettin Erbakan (but also unitarian, anti-US and independent) with an alternative fundamentalist moslem group led by Recep Tayyip Erdogan (globalist, opportunist,  pro-US) . The operation was successful.

What seems extremely funny to me is that Turkish people are now being manipulated into thinking Recep Tayyip Erdogan may have the slightest intention to settle accounts with powers that paved the way to his own political rise. We shall see the results very soon !

 



Edited (9/15/2010) by AlphaF

39.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 11:26 am

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

Actually I don´t think that democracy should be defined as 50% +1, that is not democracy but rule of the majority. Democracy is where every citizen´s rights are respected, not 51% of the people´s dictatorship over the other 49%. And especially when it comes to changes to constitution, the changes should not be approved by 51%.

And.. I know a few people who voted "yes" but had NO idea what they were voting for.

 

I agree 100% about the definition of democracy " is where every citizen´s rights are respected, not 51% of the people´s dictatorship over the other 49%".

But can you say that  "49% of Turkish people´s citizenship rights have been disrespected with this referendum"?

can anybody say that?

if so..Could you tell me which  changes in this approved  amendments do that?

Which basic rights of Turkish citizens have taken away? 

The changes are noting to do  approving the sheria. It was just clipping the powers of the army and judiciary over the parliament..   

Well at least it was not like in 1982 referendum.. it was not done under the army rule. Opposition was not put in jail like in 1982. In 1982, you could only speak in favor of the new constitution. You would be put in jail or have ´troubles´ if you opposed publicly.. Even  the envelopes, where you put your colored paper´ were made very thin so the color of your vote could be seen..

As I said, these amendments were supposed to be opening the path for making a new full more democratic constitution..

That is what is happening right now..   

I hope this time all opposition parties will join the process..

 

40.       slavica
814 posts
 15 Sep 2010 Wed 05:30 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

Actually I don´t think that democracy should be defined as 50% +1, that is not democracy but rule of the majority. Democracy is where every citizen´s rights are respected, not 51% of the people´s dictatorship over the other 49%. And especially when it comes to changes to constitution, the changes should not be approved by 51%.

 

 Can´t agree more!

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