Back to the topic - so you think Napoleon´s wars didn´t have significant impact to decline (or rise) of the Ottoman Empire?

This is an interesting and at the same time a quite specific topic..

Apart from Napoleon himself, French was quite influential during that period because of the French revolution in 1789. The spread of the idea of liberty, effected the Ottoman minorities as after the revolution  many other nations were born out of Ottoman empire..

Napoleon´s a quick invasion of Egypt and then leaving its army there, himself going back to France is an event which all history books mention. But I think, the real influence Napoleon had in Ottomans was much more and a bit later when he was trying to invade Europe and fighting Russians and British..

First of all we should all note the facts about that period.. One of them is the situation of Ottomans at the time.. Their power were in decline and almost everybody in Europe knew that..But because Ottomans were occupying a huge land and any other power in Europe gaining the control of Ottoman Empire meant a decisive victory for the controller and would be a huge shift in the power balance.. French, Russians, British, Austria.. Because of this delicate balance of power, Ottomans survived almost 200 years more. And most of the times, politic and diplomatic plays by the Ottomans were impressive..

Napoleons invasion of Egypt makes British upset the most..And the Ottomans were with the British because of that..But later on, once Napoleon went back and started fighting against Russia+British, Ottomans started to feel the urge to be closer with the French because of Russia (raising power in the east and northern borders of Ottomans). Napoleon tried to persuade the Ottomans to fight against Russia. We know that Napoleon himself wrote a letter to Sultan Selim III for that.. Although Ottomans were not planning to have a war with Russia in the beginning because they did not want to upset the British but they entered the war with Russia in 1805...And during this time, in Istanbul, the French ambassador started to speak about the historical friendship between Ottomans and French!!

It seems quite childish but British response was ´send the French ambassador -a chap called Sebastian- back..When they were refused, British sent a small fleet to Istanbul!! It was the first time, Istanbul saw some foreign war ships since conquering The city..The admiral threatened the sultan with bombing Istanbul, tried to  force him to sign an peace agreement with Russians...
Here there is an interesting twist..Sultan Selim III was established the new army..Nizami cedit..This army´s generals were supporting British, for  because of their fleet was controlling the Mediterranean. They thought Russia was powerful but if they were with the British, Brits would stop Russians. When Sultan was not sure how to act, a letter from Napoleon made his mind up.. because Napoleon was telling that he can finish The Russians with Ottoman help and it was a great opportunity for Ottomans to gain their power once more..And in the end, with the help of the janissaries, the British fleet had to back off (they went back and invaded Egypt later on). Surprisingly, two months later, janissaries would accuse the sultan being with the Russians and British, and rebel..They changed the sultan and abolished the new army -nizami cedit..
One more thing to mention..After Napoleon´s invasion of Egypt, Egypt never been properly Ottoman again.. (Kavalali Ali, a rebel, a simple soldier in the beginning, took over) And People always accused Sultan selim III for that invasion..

Ps. I think trying to blame the French for the Armenian incident of 1915 is lowering the level of morality to the bottom if not mixing the apples with pears!! French involvement with the Armenians was quite minimal before 1915. The Russians can be blamed easily for the decision of the relocation of Armenians but but not the French.
But the lowering the level of morality  is coming from ´trying to find an excuse´ to justify what was  done. Trying to lessen  the importance of the crime itself by trying to shift the attention.
There is no justification on earth for what was done to them..
It is like a woman is raped but you are arguing ´ah but she was wearing a skirt´. Phew..

Well, I see you have managed to cite Armenian incident again! (didn´t you use to call it "genocide" by the way?)

I don´t think Ottomans can be blamed for taking the relocation decision. What else could they do?

Total Armenian population, Orthodox Gregorian, Catholic and Protestant included, numbered almost 1,300,000. They made up a small part of the population even in the six provinces of eastern Anatolia.

With the arena relatively clear, the Russians began sending weapons to the Armenians. They also started to recruit Armenians from the Ottoman forces into Armenian gangs. The winter was extremely harsh, and the Armenian gangs began to cut off the supply routes of the army as well as attack units and Muslim villages. The latter were totally undefended, their men fighting in the army and the forces completely preoccupied with the Russians. Villages were followed by attacks on towns and cities. The gangs did not spare women and children, and the largely Kurdish Muslims were brutally massacred. Victims were not shot; methods of torture included the amputation of limbs one by one, leaving the mutilated to die slowly. They burnt everything in their paths. Another method was to herd women, children and the elderly into mosques and other buildings and set them alight. Women and children were raped in front of the crowds. The gangs were secure in the knowledge that the remaining Muslim population would flee eastern Anatolia for the west and the south, that a victorious Russia would help them create an Armenian state when the Ottoman Empire had been obliterated for good after the war.

Didn´t they do it with French army uniforms, in the south?

When the French forces invaded the environs of Adana , Maraş, Urfa and Gaziantep, they formed Armenian regiments. Turks were murdered here too. France later evacuated the region, signed an agreement with the government in Ankara, and retreated to Syria taking the Armenians with them.

In 1915, the Armenians, some of whom were engaged in activities against the state and living in areas near the battlefields and in neighbouring areas in Istanbul and in Anatolia, were exiled to more secure areas within the Ottoman boundaries of that time. It was not denied that some distasteful events took place then, but one must never overlook that the Turks themselves punished 1,397 people for their unapprovable activities. While these events are used as pretexts today, it is a duty and responsibility to remind people of what some Armenians did against the Turks during the same period and the baseless accusations and mounting efforts against the Turks later. Following the ceasefire of Mondros (Mudros) on 30 October 1918, what the Armenian Legion that entered Adana and Saimbeyli (Hacin) did while wearing French uniforms caused the revolt even of the celebrated French man of letters Pierre Loti who wrote that the claims of Armenian genocide "were in fact invented by the British (inventés par les anglais)". The archival documents have been published in English and Turkish as to how Armenians killed hundreds of thousands of Turks and Muslims between 1906 and 1922 in the Caucasus and in Anatolia and who were the killers, how and where. The barbaric and inhuman murders and activities that the Armenians carried out in Anatolia have even entered Turkish folk legends and laments. One of these is called the "Lament of Hacin:" 

They are the ones that mowed us down that day,
They impaled us on slaughterhouse hooks too.
Let all this be known to Doğan Bey:
They are the ones that raided Urumlu.
Go to sleep, sleep, my son Osman,
A well of blood is what was Hacin village;
We failed to take it though we attacked on:
Sultan´s Stream is a token of the pillage.
They flayed Brave Genco:

His flesh is all bruised and burnt;
They murdered the Chief Clerk,
Bludgeoned him to death with their cudgels.
They set up infernal cauldrons In which they boiled babies;
They rounded up innocent young ladies,
At bayonet point they made them dance.[83]  


In 1920 the Armenians who were members of the French Legion and who came to the village of Do anbeyli near Kozan and to Hacin burned both of the two settlements and tortured the Turkish people to death in a hideous fashion. The "Lament" above is for Hacin. The following year it was the turn of the Nationalist Forces to surround Hacin for nine months and `took revenge´ on the Armenians for what had happened the previous year. The "Doğan Bey" who is mentioned in the "Lament" is the same person as Capt. Kemâl Bey who was appointed to the command of the Nationalist Forces of this region by Mustafa Kemâl Paşa while he was in Sivas in October 1919. Armenian massacres did not remain unreciprocated. Every calamity produces a responsive disaster, and the Armenians at times paid the price for the cruelties they perpetrated. Do these kinds of reciprocal events, presented as if only one side carried out a strike, help anything other than satisfying those addicted to one-sided politics? Why not emphasise instead the deep cultural ties between the two peoples? What does it serve to incite enmity and hatred and ignore the mutual influences that have enriched the centuries-old ties? What does it serve to dwell on claims that nourish a policy that the Turks carried out "genocide" against the Armenians and to unilaterally exaggerate sporadic violent events that occurred between the two communities? There is no place in science for attitudes harboring one-sided prejudice to serve unbalanced claims.

I am just wondering if it is worth replying..

Where is it I called 1915 incident as a genocide? I dont remember calling it anything at all.. The important thing is always to know what really went through in that part of history..

What you wrote  justifies my posts and my writings about this issue..

The incident happened in 1915!!!!!! 

Look at your post.. Tell me when that French wearing uniforms happened?

There are people out there and they are trying to justify what was done to Armenians in 1915 with the incidents from 1918!!!!

I mean can you not see how pathetic and ill informed that argument is? If it was before 1915, at least you could have had a base such as ´ahh but they did it to us first at this date then we had to relocate them´. 

It is not a winning argument!! That is part of the reason I keep saying that the policy should change and, I think, it will change!!  

Hey guys, may I kindly ask you to get back to the topic? Napoleon, Ottomans, impact? It sounds pretty interesting for me and probably some other members.

How about opening a new topic to continue your discussion about impact of France to Armenian-Turkish relations in 1915-1918?

Thanks in advance

I was just about the say the same thing and that would include "you and your posts" too..

What was Serbia´s experience with French in WWII got to do with Napoleon and Ottomans for example?

The topic is not about Russian history either..

Thanks in advance

 I´m not Turkish, but I have been very interested in this part of history, and the impact of the Ottoman Empire, and it´s decline on the ME. From what I have learned, it would seem Napoleon exposed weakness in the Ottoman defenses, thus opened the door for the exploitation of those weakness that culminated with the end of the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th Century.

The Ottomans made an alliance with the British, and together they expelled the French. That alliance, however, gave Britain insight into exploitable weaknesses, which exploit they did.

It is interesting that at this time, in order to gain support from the Jews, Napoleon wrote his famous Letter to the Jews where he proclaimed a Jewish state in Ottoman Syria.

Ok, I edited my post about Serbia´s experience with French in WWII, it was out of topic indeed. From the other hand, I don´t agree that Russo-Turkish War 1806–1812 is just Russian history, since it is connected to both Ottoman Empire and Napoleon´s wars.

Your turn now

You gave a nice analysis of this topic - can you recommend me some literature to read more?