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Lybia and the no-fly zone
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50.       vineyards
1954 posts
 22 Mar 2011 Tue 07:18 pm

French Minister of Domestic Affairs appeared on TV yesterday and openly named the attack on Libya as a "crusade" directed by Sarkozy. 

 

Source: www.hurriyet.com.tr

 



Edited (3/22/2011) by vineyards

51.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 22 Mar 2011 Tue 09:30 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

French Minister of Domestic Affairs appeared on TV yesterday and openly named the attack on Libya as a "crusade" directed by Sarkozy. 

 

Source: www.hurriyet.com.tr

 

cru·sade  (kr-sd)

1. often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.
2. A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.

 3. A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. See Synonyms at campaign.

52.       vineyards
1954 posts
 22 Mar 2011 Tue 10:32 pm

Well, it is of course worth checking the tertiary meanings of words used in public speeches. If you are not careful with your vocabulary you are prone to misunderstanding. A murder can be a glorious feat when done in the name of God. You can derive meanings from any word. Isn´t Sarkozy opposing Turkey´s membership on account that Turkey is not European (to most people that also means: since Turkey is not Christian). On a short visit, he made this point clear showing the Midlle East as where Turkey must exist. Don´t tell me Sarkozy´s mind is clear of stereotypes. He is indeed a crusader, he just doesn´t wear an armour.

Quoting Daydreamer

 

cru·sade  (kr-sd)

 

1. often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.
2. A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.

 3. A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. See Synonyms at campaign.

 

 

alameda liked this message
53.       si++
3785 posts
 23 Mar 2011 Wed 09:54 am

Excerpts from an article:

 

Now, allow me to put all that in perspective. Like everybody else, I have been following the events in Libya with concern. I was hoping that the rebels would be able to take Gadhafi down, and establish at least a proto-democracy, but that did not turn out to be the case. The mad colonel proved to be resilient – and merciless – enough to wage war against his own people.

So, I was happy to see the United Nations Security Council take the decision for a no-fly zone in Libya. I knew there were serious risks, and the civilian casualties of the very first days made me cautious as well, not to mention my distaste for Mr. Sarkozy’s arrogant enthusiasm. But I know that Gadhafi would probably have destroyed thousands of innocent lives in eastern Libya had the NATO allies not acted. I also know that the West was working quite happily with Gadhafi since the early 2000s, so I can’t convince myself that the whole affair is a pre-planned “Western plot” to occupy Libya and exploit its sources.

Yet such arguments do not sell well in Turkey. Most people here rather want to see something evil in whatever the West does. And they find that evil no matter what happens. When NATO allies stand aside while Gadhafi kills his own people, this shows that the West is hypocritical about human rights and does not give a damn about Muslim lives. If the same allies act against Gadhafi, then they become “crusaders” and “oil-sucking imperialists.” As Karl Popper rightly pointed out, there is simply no way to beat such an “unfalsifiable” scheme.

 

Source: here

54.       vineyards
1954 posts
 23 Mar 2011 Wed 01:32 pm

If they don´t poke their nose into everyone´s business and aspire the role of global police no one will criticize them. These are just empty words.

Quoting si++

Excerpts from an article:

 

Now, allow me to put all that in perspective. Like everybody else, I have been following the events in Libya with concern. I was hoping that the rebels would be able to take Gadhafi down, and establish at least a proto-democracy, but that did not turn out to be the case. The mad colonel proved to be resilient – and merciless – enough to wage war against his own people.

So, I was happy to see the United Nations Security Council take the decision for a no-fly zone in Libya. I knew there were serious risks, and the civilian casualties of the very first days made me cautious as well, not to mention my distaste for Mr. Sarkozy’s arrogant enthusiasm. But I know that Gadhafi would probably have destroyed thousands of innocent lives in eastern Libya had the NATO allies not acted. I also know that the West was working quite happily with Gadhafi since the early 2000s, so I can’t convince myself that the whole affair is a pre-planned “Western plot” to occupy Libya and exploit its sources.

Yet such arguments do not sell well in Turkey. Most people here rather want to see something evil in whatever the West does. And they find that evil no matter what happens. When NATO allies stand aside while Gadhafi kills his own people, this shows that the West is hypocritical about human rights and does not give a damn about Muslim lives. If the same allies act against Gadhafi, then they become “crusaders” and “oil-sucking imperialists.” As Karl Popper rightly pointed out, there is simply no way to beat such an “unfalsifiable” scheme.

 

Source: here

 

 

55.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 23 Mar 2011 Wed 02:38 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

Well, it is of course worth checking the tertiary meanings of words used in public speeches. If you are not careful with your vocabulary you are prone to misunderstanding. A murder can be a glorious feat when done in the name of God. You can derive meanings from any word. Isn´t Sarkozy opposing Turkey´s membership on account that Turkey is not European (to most people that also means: since Turkey is not Christian). On a short visit, he made this point clear showing the Midlle East as where Turkey must exist. Don´t tell me Sarkozy´s mind is clear of stereotypes. He is indeed a crusader, he just doesn´t wear an armour.

 

 

 

Whicg part of the first two definitions don´t you understand? You´re missing out the "papal" issue here. The last time I checked, Vatican did not approve of French intervention lol Are French burning Libyan mosques and forcing people to either convert or die? Nope. So how is it holy crusading? Especially from a country that is secular? And where Islam is second biggest religion? Your reasoning is somewhat illogical...

I find it ridiculous how people still consider religion being the force behind wars in 21st century. Face it: European policy is no longer dictated by the Vatican, countries are secular and all of them make their own decisions. Why didn´t NATO support Serbs/ They are Christian. Why did they support Muslims? Maybe because they don´t give a rat´s tutu about your religion. It´s all about money and resources

 

 

thehandsom liked this message
56.       vineyards
1954 posts
 23 Mar 2011 Wed 02:54 pm

OK. Keep on finding this ridiculous but religion is indeed a factor for conflicts and wars. There is enough evidence it will remain that way for a good while more. Remember, we atheists are still marginals in the eyes of society.

As for France doing this for the sake of religion or not; it doesn´t matter actually; they are doing this in a part of the world where they have no business. 

I think there are too many blind people around...

alameda liked this message
57.       si++
3785 posts
 24 Mar 2011 Thu 01:16 pm

The one in the middle beaten by Kaddafi, Obama and Sarkozy is a poor Libyan, who says "we were much better when there was one psycho around only ".

http://im.haberturk.com/2011/03/23/613455_2c486dc7772d941d4be17280c2cd9400.jpg

 

Source: Leman weekly comic book

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