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The Inlayed Subject
(28 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
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10.       Abla
3648 posts
 07 Sep 2011 Wed 01:13 am

-dan dolayı is causing a small hysteria to me. I bagged this sentence from scalpel from another thread:

         Yeni bir ayakkabı almak istediğimden dolayı ben de gitmek istedim.

Is this what we can call an adverbial clause (or gerund-equivalent)? Of course, what I am after is the case of the inlayed subject if it was a noun.

11.       Mavili
236 posts
 07 Sep 2011 Wed 01:55 am

 

Quoting Abla

-dan dolayı is causing a small hysteria to me. I bagged this sentence from scalpel from another thread:

         Yeni bir ayakkabı almak istediğimden dolayı ben de gitmek istedim.

Is this what we can call an adverbial clause (or gerund-equivalent)? Of course, what I am after is the case of the inlayed subject if it was a noun.

 

That was from me asking about the difference between the context of -den bu yana (which was new to me) or -den beri and -den dolayı.Smile My original sentence in English was "I wanted to go also, since I wanted to get new shoes", as in "since" used as a preposition. I suppose that could be adverbial clause also?

12.       si++
3785 posts
 07 Sep 2011 Wed 08:10 am

 

Quoting Abla

-dan dolayı is causing a small hysteria to me. I bagged this sentence from scalpel from another thread:

         Yeni bir ayakkabı almak istediğimden dolayı ben de gitmek istedim.

Is this what we can call an adverbial clause (or gerund-equivalent)? Of course, what I am after is the case of the inlayed subject if it was a noun.

 

Yeni bir ayakkabı almak istediğimden dolayı ben de gitmek istedim.

The underline part acts as an adverb so it´s adverbial clause.

 

-den dolayı = because of

Yeni bir ayakkabı almak istediğim = my wanting to buy a new shoe.

13.       Abla
3648 posts
 07 Sep 2011 Wed 10:06 am

Yes, Mavili, it was originally your sentence. I took the freedom to borrow it because it was a clear one.

I found the information about this structure controversial (maybe I was mixing things because often -dan dolayı takes simple nouns and verbal nouns) but now it´s clear. Thanks to you, si++!

14.       Abla
3648 posts
 22 Oct 2011 Sat 01:36 pm

We´ve got this far in this thread:

Quote:si++

Noun clause: A subclause that functions as a noun in the main clause

Erdem´in bize gelmesini beklemiyorduk. = We didn´t expect Erdem´s coming to us.

 

Adjective clause: A subclause that functions as an adjective in the main clause

Erdem´in bize getirdiği hediye çok hoştu = The gift (which) Erdem has brought to us was very nice.

 

Adverbial clause: A subclause that functions as an adverb in the main clause

Erdem bize geldiğinde yemek yiyorduk = We were having our dinner when Erdem came to us.

When the inlayed subject is a noun it takes nominative case only as a part of an adverbial clause (or a gerund-equivalent structure). Now, let´s suppose the inlayed subject is a personal or demonstrative pronoun, if we replace Erdem with o in the previous examples, for instance, do we follow the same ruling? I have a feeling a pronoun takes genitive case in more frequent situations but I can´t find this information now. Maybe it was in a grammar related dream.

15.       si++
3785 posts
 22 Oct 2011 Sat 01:45 pm

 

Quoting Abla

We´ve got this far in this thread:

When the inlayed subject is a noun it takes nominative case only as a part of an adverbial clause (or a gerund-equivalent structure). Now, let´s suppose the inlayed subject is a personal or demonstrative pronoun, if we replace Erdem with o in the previous examples, for instance, do we follow the same ruling? Yes I have a feeling a pronoun takes genitive case in more frequent situations but I can´t find this information now. Maybe it was in a grammar related dream.

 

The rule is very simple and has no exceptions:

X-genitive Y-possessive

 

X=Erdem or o (doesn´t mater)

16.       Abla
3648 posts
 22 Oct 2011 Sat 02:07 pm

Short is beautiful. Thank you, si++.

17.       si++
3785 posts
 22 Oct 2011 Sat 02:12 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Short is beautiful. Thank you, si++.

 

Absolutely! It´s an art to say more with less words.

18.       Abla
3648 posts
 11 Dec 2011 Sun 08:29 pm

This is what the dictionary says about rica etmek:

Quote:turkishdictionary.net

rica etmek /ı, dan/ to request (something) of (someone); to request (someone) (to do something)

I understand who is requested is marked with ablative, what is requested with accusative, right? This is clear when we operate with noun phrases:

Rusça bilen bir arkadaştan yardım rica ediyorum.

But I am a little unsecure when it comes to the situation where a complete sentence is inlayed into a main clause with rica etmek as its predicate:

Düğün fotoğraflarını çekeceğim. > Bir arkadaşım düğün fotoğraflarını çekmemi rica etti.

Köşk sahiplerine davet mektubu gönderecekler. > Köşk sahiplerine davet mektubu göndermeleri rica edildi.

As long as the inlayed subject is a personal pronoun you just add the equivalent possessive suffix in the end of the infinitive. But if the subject is a noun is it still going take ablative ending or will it take genitive and form a possessive construction together with the infinitive? I find both alternatives:

İsteyen tüm arkadaşlar katılacaklar. > İsteyen tüm arkadaşların katılmasını rica ederim.

Başbakan daha sakin olacak. > Ben başbakandan daha sakin olmasını rica ediyorum.

Is there a difference in meaning? The genitive subject sounds more logical to me. Maybe the ablative word in the latter example is not an inlayed subject at all but a part of the main clause and the inlayed subject is (the dropped down) sg 3rd instead?

Sorry guys, I think I answered it.

19.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 11 Dec 2011 Sun 08:49 pm

 

Quoting Abla

This is what the dictionary says about rica etmek:


I understand who is requested is marked with ablative, what is requested with accusative (not always), right? This is clear when we operate with noun phrases:

Rusça bilen bir arkadaştan yardım(object is not accusative here) rica ediyorum.

But I am a little unsecure when it comes to the situation where a complete sentence is inlayed into a main clause with   rica etmek  as its predicate:

Düğün fotoğraflarını çekeceğim. > Bir arkadaşım düğün fotoğraflarını çekmemi (benden) rica etti. (there is a hidden "benden" in this sentence) 

Köşk sahiplerine davet mektubu gönderecekler. > (Onlardan) Köşk sahiplerine davet mektubu göndermeleri rica edildi. (there is a hidden onlardan in this sentence)

As long as the inlayed subject is a personal pronoun you just add the equivalent possessive suffix in the end of the infinitive. But if the subject is a noun is it still going take ablative ending or will it take genitive and form a possessive construction together with the infinitive? I find both alternatives: (there is always an indirect object hidden or not in the sentence)

İsteyen tüm arkadaşlar katılacaklar. > İsteyen tüm arkadaşların katılmasını (onlardan) rica ederim.

Başbakan daha sakin olacak. > Ben başbakandan daha sakin olmasını rica ediyorum.

 

Ben is the subject of the main sentence.

başbakandan is the indirect object of the main sentence.

(kendisinin) daha sakin olmasını is the object of the main sentence.

rica ediyorum is the predicate of the main sentence.

 

Is there a difference in meaning? The genitive subject sounds more logical to me. Maybe the ablative word in the latter example is not an inlayed subject at all but a part of the main clause and the inlayed subject is (the dropped down) sg 3rd instead?

 

 


Sorry guys, I think I answered it. 

 

Bir sorum var. "Ben başbakandan daha sakin olmasını rica ediyorum" cümlesinde "(kendisinin) daha sakin olmasını" tümceciğinin öğelerini nasıl gösteririz. Örneğin kendisinin gizli özne, daha zarf, sakin olmasını yüklem midir? Feyza Hepçilingirlerin buna benzer çözümlemer yaptığını biliyorum. Benim ki doğru mu?



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20.       Abla
3648 posts
 12 Dec 2011 Mon 07:59 am

I understand from your analyse, gokuyum, that the difference is something like this (if we try sentences which are as close to one another as possible):

1) Ben [başbakanın daha sakin olmasını] rica ediyorum.

2) Ben başbakandan [daha sakin olmasını] rica ediyorum.

The hidden or visible indirect (ablative) object always belongs to the main clause, doesn’t it? If so, how does supposing it there or out of there take us any further? My idea was that in the previous example the governed clause is inlayed as a whole while in the latter the inlayed subject would actually be o/kendisi which means that the inlayed sentences would be something like

1) Başbakan daha sakin olacak.

2) O/kendisi daha sakin olacak.

Not that it matters so much to me. Actually I was just trying to translate something, got stuck and began to play with this thought.



Edited (12/12/2011) by Abla

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