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On Pronouns
(105 Messages in 11 pages - View all)
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20.       si++
3785 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:01 pm

 

Quoting Abla

So kind of you, scalpel. With your additions my text finally gains some information value.

The wide use of Turkish dative has paid my attention in many occasions, with the pronoun kendi as well. (My opinion is you should have more grammatical cases in your language...)

 

Such as ...

21.       Abla
3648 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:15 pm

Cases which would specify if the object is over the box or in it or just in close contact with it, cases which show that while looking for something in the wardrobe you are not in the wardrobe yourself...these are important things to define.

Seriously, what has made my mind busy recently is the obvious contradiction that many languages with a good amount of prepositions have as much grammatical cases as Turkish. For instance Russian which as an Indoeuropean language makes full use of prepositions has the same amount of cases as Turkish has. There has been talk about the ambiguity of Turkish sentences when separated from their context here sometimes. Maybe this is one of the reasons.



Edited (11/21/2011) by Abla

22.       si++
3785 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:32 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Cases which would specify if the object is over the box or in it or just in close contact with it, cases which show that while looking for something in the wardrobe you are not in the wardrobe yourself...these are important things to define.

Seriously, what has made my mind busy recently is the obvious contradiction that many languages with a good amount of prepositions have as much grammatical cases as Turkish. For instance Russian which as an Indoeuropean language makes full use of prepositions has the same amount of cases as Turkish has. There has been talk about the ambiguity of Turkish sentences when separated from their context here sometimes. Maybe this is one of the reasons.

 

I guess we´re doing OK with what we have now. This is the outcome of so many centuries.

 

If we need to be more specific we say

over the box = kutunun üzerinde

in the box = kutunun içinde

And if the context makes it clear we just say:

kutuda

 

For others we describe:

in close contact with the box = kutunun çok yakınında

etc

 

Postpositions in Turkish or prepositions in IE languages (adpostions) have parallels.

I guess our case suffixes once were postpositions as well. They just turned into suffixes over time.

 

Look at this example:

Da Roma a İstanbul (Italian)

Roma´dan İstanbul´a (Turkish)

23.       Abla
3648 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:42 pm

Certainly. I think Turkish represents great economy compared with preposition languages and even among agglutinative languages. But the system is in constant, slow move as you said.

24.       Abla
3648 posts
 26 Nov 2011 Sat 01:36 pm

"Many left Maurras, and few returned when, in 1939, Pius XII lifted the interdict."

Can one use the Turkish çok and az independently the same way as many and few above? If the answer is yes, do they take their predicate in sg or pl?

25.       tunci
7149 posts
 26 Nov 2011 Sat 01:47 pm

 

Quoting Abla

"Many left Maurras, and few returned when, in 1939, Pius XII lifted the interdict."

Can one use the Turkish çok and az independently the same way as many and few above? If the answer is yes, do they take their predicate in sg or pl?

 

 You can absolutely..

 " Birçoğu [Birçokları] Maurras´ı terk etti ve birazı [birkaçı] ........    "

Birçok = many

Birçok + u --> many of them

Biraz + ı  ---> few of them

as you see we can say they are used independently as we dont have to mention "person" when we say birçoğu or birkaçı [birazı] if the context already known.

Other examples ;

Birazını sakla ya da dolaba koy. ---> Keep few of it [them--> depends on the context ] or put it [them] into the fridge.

Birkaçı bana sordu ---> Few of them asked me

[Onlardan birkaçı = few of them]

[ Adamlardan birkaçı ---> Few of men ]

 



Edited (11/26/2011) by tunci

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26.       tunci
7149 posts
 26 Nov 2011 Sat 01:53 pm

 

Another example ;

Geçmişte birçok Rum mübadele yoluyla köylerini terk etmek zorunda kaldı.

Geçmişte birçoğu mübadele yoluyla köylerini terk etmek zorunda kaldı

 

Here as we already know the context then we are free to use it independently without mentioning the "person" .

birçok Rum = many greeks

birçoğu = many of them

27.       tunci
7149 posts
 26 Nov 2011 Sat 01:58 pm

 

 

Birçokları bana inanmaz ---> Many [people] dont believe me.

[Birçoğu]

Çok azı bana inanır ---> Quite few [people] belive me.

 [Birazı]  -----> Few belive me.

 [Birkaçı] ----> Few believe me.

---- Yumurtadan yeni çıkan kaplumbağaların birçoğu denize ulaşamaz.

       Yumurtadan yeni  çıkanların birçoğu denize ulaşamaz.                                  



Edited (11/26/2011) by tunci
Edited (11/26/2011) by tunci [added and deleted..]

28.       si++
3785 posts
 26 Nov 2011 Sat 02:17 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 You can absolutely..

 " Birçoğu [Birçokları] Maurras´ı terk etti ve birazı [birkaçı] ........    "

Birçok = many

Birçok + u --> many of them

Biraz + ı  ---> few of them

as you see we can say they are used independently as we dont mention "person" when we say birçoğu or birkaçı [birazı]

Other examples ;

Birazını sakla ya da dolaba koy. ---> Keep few of it [them--> depends on the context ] or put it [them] into the fridge.

Birkaçı bana sordu ---> Few of them asked me

[Onlardan birkaçı = few of them]

[ Adamlardan birkaçı ---> Few of men ]

 

tunci,

 

I know you become irritated when I correct you, but I have to do it here.

 

"Biraz" cannot be used for countable things ("birkaç" is used for that purpose). So

 

Birazı = few of them is not OK

 

"Birazı" means some of it.

"Birkaçı" means some/few of them.

 

29.       tunci
7149 posts
 26 Nov 2011 Sat 02:35 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

tunci,

 

I know you become irritated when I correct you, but I have to do it here.

 

"Biraz" cannot be used for countable things ("birkaç" is used for that purpose). So

 

Birazı = few of them is not OK

 

"Birazı" means some of it.

"Birkaçı" means some/few of them.

 

 

 Si ++ ,

You are wrong by thinking I become irritated when you correct me. I really appreciate your correction as long as it[correction] is made in a good manner. As your manner is good here I say thank you for that.

when it comes to "biraz" issue, I know biraz is used for uncountable things. Yes I was in dilemma to put "some" or "few" for that sentence. But in Turkish we sometimes use biraz for countable things too such as ;

Biraz elma al ---> Buy some apples

I am gonna buy few apples ---> Birkaç [tane] elma alacağım.

BUT in the sentence above we can say " Biraz elma alacağım " . What I am trying to say is that in Turkish this rule is not strict as english.

If I mean a few apples , we can also say " biraz " along " birkaç"

As you know in cases like this Turkish is more flexible in practice.

30.       Abla
3648 posts
 26 Nov 2011 Sat 02:35 pm

The difference between a few and few, if we talk about countables, what is is then?

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