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On Pronouns
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60.       Abla
3648 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 06:45 pm

Quote:si++

Başka should mean those who are not like us. (In set theory "belonging to another set")

Diğer should mean other than us. (In set theory "belonging to the same superset but another subset)

I didn´t see a better definition anywhere. If it is not so in the real use of language it should be. Otherwise there is disturbing oversupply in this lexical field (başka, diğer, öbür, öteki, what else?).

But shouldn´t it be başka bir kadın, başka bir ülke?

61.       si++
3785 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 06:59 pm

 

Quoting Abla

I didn´t see a better definition anywhere. If it is not so in the real use of language it should be. Otherwise there is disturbing oversupply in this lexical field (başka, diğer, öbür, öteki, what else?I don´t remember now).

But shouldn´t it be başka bir kadın, başka bir ülke?

 

Başka bir kadın = Another woman

Bir başka kadın = An other woman

(OK it doesn´t tell too much. Treat "bir başka" as a unit that means "one other" or "one different". "bir" is an adverb that modifies "başka". Should mean something like "a unique other".)

 

62.       Abla
3648 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 07:05 pm

si++. Thanks. The rest you know.

63.       Abla
3648 posts
 30 Dec 2011 Fri 12:14 pm

Reciprocal expressions denote a special relationship between two noun phrases of a sentence in which they take the role of both agent and patient. In English there are two reciprocal pronouns, one another and each other. Turkish has a special reciprocal morpheme in verbs (anla-ş-mak ‘understand each other, agree’ ) and in addition the very transparent pronoun birbir.

Reflexivity is a special case of reciprocality. This kinship in meaning shows in the Turkish pronouns for ‘by oneself’ and ‘to one another’:

kendi

kend

i

n

e

bir

bir

i

n

e

birbir is obligatorily inflected for person:

birbirimiz (pl 1st)

birbiriniz (pl 2nd)

birbiri/birbirleri (pl 3rd)

Once the possessive suffix has been added we are free to conjugate birbir- in case. Note that using the reciprocal pronoun is a reason good enough to omit its antecedent from the sentence if it is a personal pronoun:

Birbir|iniz|le çok iyi anlaşıyorsunuz.

Birbir|leri|n|i iki yıldır görmüyorlar.

The antecedent of a reciprocal pronoun doesn’t necessarily have to be the subject of the clause:

Size birbir|iniz|den hiç söz etmedim.

birbir- can not act as the subject of sentence but you can find it as the inlayed subject, the antecedent being in the main clause:

Birbir|imiz|in sevdiği renkleri sevmiyor|uz.

(Aslı Göksel – Celia Gerslake, Turkish: A Comprehensive Grammar)



Edited (12/30/2011) by Abla

64.       scalpel
1472 posts
 30 Dec 2011 Fri 11:58 pm

 

Quoting Abla

1. I have been wondering if the postposition başka and the pronoun başka have slightly different meanings. It seems to me that –den başka + the 3rd person possessive suffix always means ‘other than the thing that is marked with ablative, the choice being from the largest imaginable group’. That’s how it seems in my examples:

Bizden başkalarına benzemeye çalışanlar, bizden değildir.  -  ‘other than us’ 

Allah’tan başkasına yemin etmek şirk midir?  -  ‘other than Allah’

When -den başka used with 3rd person possessive suffix (den başkası, den başkaları ) is no longer postposition but pronoun. 

"bizden başkalarına benzemeye çalışanlar" => any of us who are trying to resemble others (= any of us who are imitating others in their religious rites or worship )

The pronoun başka (with possessive suffix and no ablative around) seems to denote a division inside the group itself, at least here:

Bazılarımız okula gidiyor, ve başkalarımız ("başkalarımız" should not be used here, it should be "bazılarımız da" )çalışıp maaşlarını alabiliyorlar.  -  ‘others  -  others’

Hz. Peygamber (sav) şöyle buyurmuştur: "Birinizin satışı üzerine başkanız ("diğeriniz" would be more proper word to use here ) satış yapmasın."  -  ‘other  -  other’

Is this the correct interpretation? başkalarımız in the above examples means ‘others of ours’. Can it also mean ‘others than us’  (some occurances make me wonder) or is this meaning always carried by the postposition structure? 


2. I find strange uses of the adjective başka:

bir başka ülke

bir başka kadın

What are they?

 

BAŞKA

1) As adjective

Bu şapkayı beğenmedim; lütfen başka (bir tane ) gösterin - I don´t like this hat; please show me another (one )

Bunu başka bir zaman yapabiliriz - We can do that another time

 

2) As noun and pronoun (always with 3rd person possessive suffix)

Başkaları bunu bilmesin - Don´t let the others know it

Ali´den başka böyle bir şeyi söylemez(di ) - No one besides Ali would say a thing like that

 

3) as postposition (-dan/-den başka )

Bundan başka üç şapkam daha var - I have three other hats besides this

Bundan başka bir şeyim yok - I have nothing else other than this

65.       Abla
3648 posts
 31 Dec 2011 Sat 03:26 pm

What in your opinion makes a pronoun, scalpel? Is it the possessive suffix? Does this mean postpositions are inflexible like adjectives? I am asking because I have been thinking about this a lot while writing these texts.

Another thing is if it is important to know it or not. From a learner´s view I sometimes feel like it is enough to know what is an adjective and what is not.

It looks to me like a line which has been drawn to water  -  I don´t know if you have this saying or not but maybe you understand what I mean.

66.       scalpel
1472 posts
 01 Jan 2012 Sun 01:22 pm

Adding -sı to başka, makes it pronoun and this new form takes the place of a person or thing (plu- başkaları ) :

Anne - Saat 9´da yatağa gitmelisin (you should go to bed at 9 )

Kız - Ama arkadaşım Aslı saat 10.30´da yatağa gittiğini söylüyor (but my friend Aslı says she goes to bed at 10:30 )  

Anne - Başkası seni ilgilendirmez!

Başkası (= Aslı ) doesn´t interest /concern you => just because she goes to bed at 10:30, doesn´t mean you should do the same.    

Anne could also say this: başkaları seni ilgilendirmez ( başkaları = Aslı and people like her )

 

 

 

 

67.       scalpel
1472 posts
 01 Jan 2012 Sun 03:22 pm

 

Quoting Abla

(başka, diğer, öbür, öteki, what else?)

 

I noticed that the dictionary linked to the forum doesn´t explain these words well...

 
Turkish -> English 
diğer
other, the other.

 

I hope the following info will help you..

diğer (=other) adj, pron. (person or thing) not already named or implied. 1 (=the other) the second of two: () diğer (both sing and pl )adj. Postane sokağın diğer tarafında = The post office is on the other side of the street. Diğer kızlar nerede? = wher are the other girls diğer taraftan = on the other hand (sometimes but not always, after bir taraftan = on the one hand ) Ucuz ama diğer taraftan da kalitesiz = It´s cheap, but on the other hand the quality is poor ()diğeri (sing) pron. Birisi benim; diğeri kız kardeşimin = One of them is mine; the other is my sister´s. 2 diğerleri (=the others ) pron. (pl ) when the reference is to two or more: Altısı benim; diğerleri Ali´nin = Six of them are mine; the others are Ali´s. 3 (When one member of a group is compared with any other member of the group, diğer (adj ) / diğerleri (pron ) usually used) Alex takımın diğer oyuncularından çok daha iyi bir forvet = Alex is far more better as a forward than any other member of the team. 

* öbür, öteki are synonyms for diğer: öbür taraftan, öteki tarafta, öteki kız kardeşimin, öbürküler Ali´nin.. 

başka (= another ) pron. adj. an additional (one ); a different one. 1 adj.  Başka çay alır mısınız? = will you have another cup of tea? Buna dair başka bir söz söylemeyeceğim = I won´t say another word about it. Başka bir güne ertele - put it off  to another day 2 pron. başkası Bu gömlek çok büyük, başkasını deneyeceğim = This shirt is too big; I´ll try another

 

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68.       Abla
3648 posts
 01 Jan 2012 Sun 06:10 pm

I remember I tried to write about these differences but I couldn´t. Good you did, scalpel.

With the contribution from natives we´ve got so much nice stuff into this thread. As the initiator I thought I will begin to collect an ectrance fee from anyone who wants to see it.

69.       Abla
3648 posts
 04 Jan 2012 Wed 06:29 pm

The English demonstrative pronouns express a simple distance contrast. They indicate the relative distance between the speaker and the referent. this denotes a referent in relative proximity to the speaker and that denotes a referent at a greater distance. it roughly refers to an object which is out of sight.

 

Turkish has a three-way (bu – şu – o) demonstrative system which obligatorily encodes both distance contrasts and absence or presence of the addressee’s visual attention on the referent. The listener’s point of view is the thing that makes choosing between Turkish demonstratives often difficult for English speakers. The following describes how a Turk chooses between o and şu:

 

For example, imagine a dinner with two people, where one of them needs to refer to a glass away from her on the table. In English the speaker could say ‘could you pass me that glass? ’ since the glass is away from where she is sitting. However, in Turkish, depending on the addressee’s visual attention on the referent, the speaker would use “şu” if the addressee’s visual attention is away from the glass (e.g. when she is concentrated on the food), but use “o”, that is the distal form, if the addressee’s attention is directed towards or presumed to be on the referent. (Küntay& Özyürek 2003, http://home.ku.edu.tr/~akuntay/KuntayOzyurek.pdf)

 

bu is used for proximal and o for distal referents. şu is neutral with regard to distance specifications. If the listener’s eye-gaze is not on the referent the speaker is more likely to use şu instead of bu or o. In short, şu overcomes both bu and o if the addressee does not look at the object.

 

It’s not so easy. According to research 6-year old Turkish children do not master adult-like use of demonstratives yet.

 

In conversation and written language, a good rule of thumb is that bu means ‘the one that has just been mentioned’ and şu means ‘the following’ (Lewis 1969.):

 

Bunları boşver.

Etkili bir dinleme için şunları yapın:…

70.       Abla
3648 posts
 10 Jan 2012 Tue 07:59 pm

The use of the suffix -ki  -  even though it is an indeclinable clitic  -  comes to the area of pronouns. –ki creates equivalents to English relative clauses or independent possessive pronouns (of the type mine, yours, ours). –ki does not produce pronouns but generally adjectives. Instead, in the declined word it represents the pronoun which can be seen in all the following examples. -ki is actually a text book example of a pronoun according to its definition: it comes to the phrase to substitute a noun, it stands in the agglutinated word pro noun.

–ki is typically attached to genitive words and expressions of place or time.

Ayşe|nin|ki ‘the one that belongs to Ayşe’

bizim|ki ‘the one that belongs to us’

arkadaş|lar|ınız|ın|ki ‘ the one that belongs to your friends’

ön|ünüz|de|ki ‘the one that is in front of you’

dün|kü ‘that of yesterday’

İzmir|’de|ki ‘the one that is in Izmir.

Any pronominal form containing –ki can be further modified. It can take the plural –ler:

masa|da|ki|ler ‘those which are on the table’.

A case suffix can be further added either to the singular or the plural form (note that the pronominal –n- is used after –ki only in the singular):

ben|de|ki|n|e ‘to the one that I have’

ev|in|ki|ler|i ‘the ones belonging to the house (ACC)’

In addition, the markers ile, -ce and –siz can be added to a word with –ki:

sokak|ta|ki|yle ‘with the one on the street’

The clitic –ki is like a full stop in a word. What is not usually possible in Turkish morphology, like doubled plural marking or the same case ending repeated twice can be found in words with –ki.

masa|lar|da|ki|ler ‘the ones that are on the tables’

ev|de|ki|ler|de ‘in the ones in the house’

Even though the morphology seems complicated the meaning is quite practical and ordinary. The same can be said about the example with two –ki’s.

ev|de|ki|ler|in|ki ‘the one belonging to those at home’.

(I used the usual web sites, Lewis 1969 and Göksel – Kerslake 2004.)

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