Welcome
Login:   Pass:     Register - Forgot Password - Resend Activation

Turkish Class Forums / Language

Language

Add reply to this discussion
On Negation
(26 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
1 2 3
1.       Abla
3648 posts
 17 Jan 2012 Tue 10:44 pm

Turkish has three morphological means of expressing negation, the verbal suffix –me- and two particles, değil and yok for nominal and existential negation. The distribution between the three of them is clear-cut. There is a lot to learn about negation and I thought it would be useful for me and others to collect the grammar of negation and negation-related issues post by post into one thread.

-me- is the primary means used for negating verbal sentences and subordinate clauses.

Ağaçları kes|me|yecekler. ‘They will not cut down the trees.’

Ayşenin durumu bil|me|diğini hiç bir zaman düşün|me|dim. ‘I never thought Ayşe didn’t know the situation.’

If the sentences are small the negation marker can be either in the main clause or the subclause:

Zeki’yi Fransızca konuşuyor addet|mi|yorlar./ Zeki’yi Fransızca konuş|mu|yor addediyorlar. ‘They don’t think Zeki speaks French.’

If the main clause verb is bilmek, though, -me- is necessarily in the subclause:

Nuran’ı daha ehliyetini al|ma|dı biliyordum. ‘I knew Nuran didn’t still get her driver’s licence.’

The equivalents of English indirect questions are in Turkish formed with the –ip…-me- construction:

Çocukları tatile götürüp götür|me|meye henüz karar ver|me|diler. ‘They didn’t still decide whether or not to take the children on holiday.’

Elif kalıp kal|ma|yacağını söyledi mi? ´Did Elif say if she is going to stay or not?’

Bilgisayarımın güncel olup ol|ma|dığını nasıl belirleyebilirim? ‘How can I determine if my computer is up-to-date?’

My grammar book says in constructions where verbs like olmak, durmak, vermek are used as auxiliaries –me- can be added on either the lexical verb or the auxiliary, but the meaning changes. Let’s see how it works. If the lexical verb is negated it means the action doesn’t take place. If, instead, the auxiliary is negated the full performance of the action is denied. This is an old example of –r/mez oldu ‘to become a habit’ from tunci:

Son zamanlarda birbirimizi gör|me|z olduk. ‘We didn’t see each other regularly any more recently (earlier we did).’

If it was

Son zamanlarda birbirimizi görür ol|ma|dık

could it be understood ‘We didn’t (succeed to) make it a habit to see each other regularly recently’?

(I used old threads, Göksel – Kerslake 2005 and Gerjan van Schaak, Studies in Turkish Grammar 1.2.5. Negation.)

2.       si++
3785 posts
 18 Jan 2012 Wed 06:34 pm

Once I was chatting with a friend. And somewhere he uttered this:

 

sevmeyemezsin

 

I stopped for a second and my brain then parsed it. I had never heard it until then and probably never will hear again. But it was perfectly understood.

3.       Abla
3648 posts
 20 Jan 2012 Fri 02:46 pm

My Try:

 

sev|me|y|e|mez|sin >< ‘you are | not the kind of person who | can | BUFFER | not | love’

4.       si++
3785 posts
 20 Jan 2012 Fri 04:38 pm

 

Quoting Abla

My Try:

 

sev|me|y|e|mez|sin >< ‘you are | not the kind of person who | can | BUFFER | not | love’

 

V + -emezsin = You can not V

where V = sev-me (to not love)

 

You can not not love = Imposible for you to not love (it)

5.       Abla
3648 posts
 21 Jan 2012 Sat 11:36 pm

The cross-section of the negation marker –me- is morphologically the element that precedes it. In the simple case it is the verb stem. What is denied in the next example is ‘knowing’:

 

Türkçe bil|mi|yorum.

 

The rule becomes useful in modally modified verbs where it sometimes makes a difference if –me- comes after the verb root or the potential suffix:

 

Yağmur yağ|ma|yabilir ROOT + NEG + POT  ‘it [may be] that it will [not rain]’

Burada otur|amaz|sınız ROOT + POT + NEG  ‘you [are not allowed] [to sit] here’

Çoşkun’u ikna ed|eme|yebilirim. ROOT + POT + NEG + POT ‘it [may be] that we [will not be able] [to convince] him’

 

If there is a negation marker –me- in a necessitative verb it is before –meli-. That’s why it always denies the action, not the necessity. For denying the necessity, other means must be used.

 

Beni gördüğünu hiç kimseye söyle|me|melisin. ROOT + NEG + NEC ‘you must [not say]’

 

Syntactically –me- negates the whole sentence. But not always. In sentences where an unusual constituent has been transferred from its predictable position to the ear-marked place of emphasis right before the verb the negated predicate only denies this constituent, not the whole action:

 

Bu rengi ben seç|me|dim. ‘It was [not me] who chose this colour (someone still did).

 

(I used Göksel – Kerslake + old threads “On Modality” and “Negating a Constituent”.)

 

6.       srhat
36 posts
 24 Jan 2012 Tue 09:51 pm

 

Quoting si++

Once I was chatting with a friend. And somewhere he uttered this:

 

sevmeyemezsin

 

I stopped for a second and my brain then parsed it. I had never heard it until then and probably never will hear again. But it was perfectly understood.

 

I am a native speaker and I can surely say that there is no such thing in Turkish. sevemezsin is true but sevmeyemezsin is wrong.

7.       Abla
3648 posts
 24 Jan 2012 Tue 10:45 pm

I understand it was not about being right or wrong here. sev|me|y|emez|sin and the way its use was described here looks to me like a temporary formation, made for that certain situation and then forgotten. It happens in language. Words like this are the fruit of the productiveness of the morphology.

The funny thing here is that for me as a learner it was not difficult to understand it. I could produce something like that myself. I could even add another negation to the end and make it sev|me|y|eme|y|emez|sin if I tried to say ´it can´t be true that you can not not love´. Very much of the possible theoretical constructions are not in use in real language, especially in the normative language.



Edited (1/24/2012) by Abla [typo]

8.       si++
3785 posts
 25 Jan 2012 Wed 08:43 am

 

Quoting srhat

 

 

I am a native speaker and I can surely say that there is no such thing in Turkish. sevemezsin is true but sevmeyemezsin is wrong.

 

So what? I am a native speaker as well.

 

Earlier I said this about it:

I stopped for a second and my brain then parsed it. I had never heard it until then and probably never will hear again. But it was perfectly understood.

 

And I analyzed it in post #4.

 

Are you an authority? You say this and that must be it.

 

Why don´t you provide us with your analysis and prove me wrong?

9.       srhat
36 posts
 25 Jan 2012 Wed 04:00 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

So what? I am a native speaker as well.

 

Earlier I said this about it:

I stopped for a second and my brain then parsed it. I had never heard it until then and probably never will hear again. But it was perfectly understood.

 

And I analyzed it in post #4.

 

Are you an authority? You say this and that must be it.

 

Why don´t you provide us with your analysis and prove me wrong?

 

I didn´t mean to offend anybody by saying "I am a native speaker". When I read this thread, I thought someone wrote a word his/her friend used while talking, and some other people tried to figure out the meaning of that word without writing that that usage does not exist in Turkish. So I just wanted to add that.  I wasn´t aware of that it was not about being wrong or right.

Of course, if affirmative form is possible (sevmeyebilirsin), its negative form may be possible as well (sevmeyemezsin). But this kind of usage does not exist and I just wanted to point it out.

Why don´t you assume good faith?

10.       Abla
3648 posts
 25 Jan 2012 Wed 07:32 pm

Memo about değil (Göksel - Gerslake, earlier threads):

 

I  değil negating nominal phrases:

 

değil is used for negating nominal phrases. You find it combined with –(y)di, -(y)miş and -(y)se, -dir, person markers and –(y)ken.

 

Nejat gençliğinde bu kadar inançlı değildi. ‘Nejat wasn’t this stubborn when he was young.’

Evde değilsin sandık. ‘We thought you were not at home.’

Anneleri evde değilken çok daha derli toplu oluyorlar. ‘They are much more tidy when their mother is not at home.’

 

II  değil negating verbal sentences

 

Sometimes değil can also negate a verbal sentence. Instead of saying simply

 

Her yere taksiyle gitmiyorum ‘I don’t go everywhere by taxi’

 

the speaker can repudiate the real or imagined assumptions of the listener saying

 

Her yere taksiyle gidiyor değilim. ‘It is not the case that I go everywhere by taxi.’

 

The next example is a combination of –me- and değil negations. Two negations make a strong affirmation:

 

Bu sınavlarda neden bu kadar güçlük çekildiğini anlamıyor değilim. ‘I understand why people have so much difficulties with these exams.’

 

III  değil in elliptic sentences

 

değil is one of the basic means of constituent negation in Turkish. It replaces the negative predicate in elliptic sentences which contain an identical but affirmative predicate:

 

Olanları görmedim değil, ama tam hatırlayamıyorum. ‘It’s not that I didn’t see what happened, it’s just that I can’t quite remember.’

Büyük değil, küçük bir elma istemiştim. ‘I hadn’t asked for a big apple but a small one.’

 

The Turkish ‘let alone’ construction can be constructed with the help of değil also. It is important to add değil in front of the less probable alternative. The contrasted constituent has a strong sentence stress and is followed by bile:

 

Değil sinemaya gitmek, televiziyon bile seyredecek zamanım yok. ‘I don’t have the time to even watch TV, let alone going to the cinema.’

 


11.       Abla
3648 posts
 27 Jan 2012 Fri 10:08 pm

yok is the Turkish way to express non-existing. It is the counterpart of the affirmative var. You will find it in possessive constructions  and in sentences which in English begin with there is/there are.

 

Çorbanın tuzu yok. ‘There is no salt in the soup.’

Evde bir tane bile fazla ampul yok. ‘There is not even one spare light bulb in the house.’

 

yok and değil can be used in double negative construction. Double negative makes affirmative:

 

Yok değil bu kalpte kimse. ‘Yes, there is someone in this heart.’

 

In the end some hindsight for those who have sometimes wondered whether to use yok or değil in sentences with a locative modifier: both will do.

 

Semra partide değildi/yoktu. ‘Semra was not in the party.’

 

I can imagine a difference in meaning but it is better that I don’t say it.

 

12.       si++
3785 posts
 28 Jan 2012 Sat 12:05 pm

yok yok. (first one is a noun)

Quoting Abla

 

yok is the Turkish way to express non-existing.

13.       Abla
3648 posts
 28 Jan 2012 Sat 12:45 pm

Could it be ´there is no lack, shortage, deficiency´?

14.       si++
3785 posts
 28 Jan 2012 Sat 12:52 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Could it be ´there is no lack, shortage, deficiency´?

There is no "There is no". (i.e there is nothing that cannot be found)

 

15.       Abla
3648 posts
 29 Jan 2012 Sun 04:57 pm

 

Often in sentences with multiple predicates only the last one carries personal and tense markers. In the following construction the –ip marking in the first predicate is a signal to the listener: go check the conjugation from the latter predicate:

 

Gidip şehirde çalışayım. ‘Let me go and work in town.’

 

The same structure works in negative sentences, too. Notice that the negative marker also comes visible only in the last predicate:

 

Kayınvalidem oku|y|up yaz|a|maz. ‘My mother in law can not read or write.’

 

In sentences where one of the predicates is affirmative and the other one negative you have to take care. The combination where the first predicate is negated is understood correctly:

 

Yemek ye|me|y|ip işe gid|eceğ|im. ‘I won’t eat and I will go to work.’

 

There is a trap in the opposite alternative. If the latter predicate is negative the first one is understood negative also if the sentence is not interrupted with de/da.

 

Onu gör|üp de kork|ma|mak imkansız. ‘It’s impossible to see him and not to be afraid.’

 

görüp korkmamak would mean ‘not to see and not to be afraid’.

 

(Lewis, old threads)

 



Edited (1/29/2012) by Abla [Added sources.]

16.       Abla
3648 posts
 03 Feb 2012 Fri 10:40 pm

The negative connective ‘neither…nor’ is ne…ne (de) in Turkish. Both ne’s attach to phrases, simple or complex. de may be added after the latter one for emphasis.

 

Ne yabancılar ne (de) mahalle halkı otobüs turlarından memnunlar. ‘Both foreigners and local people are pleased with the coach tours.’

 

ne…ne can connect other sentence constituents also, like adverbials

 

Görüşmeler hakkında ne hükümetten, ne iş adamlarından ne (de) işçi sendikalarından bir bilgi alamadık ‘We didn’t get any information about the negotiations either from the government, the businessmen or the trade unions’

 

and verbal phrases:

 

O kitaba sadece şöyle bir göz gezdirdim, yani ne okudum ne okumadım. ‘I just took a look at that book, I mean neither read it nor didn’t read it.’

 

ne…ne doesn’t check if the predicate is affirmative or negative.

 

Bu filmden ne kadınlar ne erkekler hoşlandılar/hoşlanmadılar. ‘Both women and men liked this film.’

 

The second conjuct may be placed after the affirmative predicate also:

 

Ne yiyecek bulabildim ne de içecek. ‘I didn’t find either food or drink.’

 

(sources: Göksel – Gerslake, many old threads and translation tasks)

17.       Abla
3648 posts
 18 Feb 2012 Sat 06:37 pm

 

Some expressions are more at home in negative contexts than others. The use of the hiç family and kimse in affirmative sentences is restricted.

The Persian origin hiç on its own or combined with other material makes adverbs, adjectives and pronouns. The following list is from Göksel – Gerslake 2005:

hiç ‘never’, ‘ever’, ‘at all’

hiçbir (+ noun phrase) ‘no/any…’

hiçbiri(si) ‘none/any (of)…’

hiçbir şey ‘nothing’, ‘anything’

hiçbir yer ‘nowhere’, ‘anywhere’

hiçbir zaman ‘never’, ‘ever’

hiçbir koşulda, hiçbir koşul/ şart altında, hiçbir durumda ‘under no/any circumstances’

kimse/hiç kimse/hiçbir kimse ‘no one’, ‘anyone’

None of the negative meanings in the translations realizes unless there is a negation marker –mA-, değil or yok in the sentence. hiç intensifies the negation:

Kaybedeceğim hiçbir şeyim yok. ‘I have nothing (at all) to lose.’

“Hiçbir müttefik İsrail devletinden daha önemli olamaz” dedi. ‘He said: There can not be an ally more important than the state of Israel.’

Sen beni hiç hak etmiyorsun. ’You don’t deserve me.’

kimse without hiç has a negative meaning already, adding hiç stresses it:

Bugün (hiç ) kimse evinde yok. ‘There is no one at home today.’

You may find hiç in an affirmative sentence also. It is a question then:

Hiç ata bindin mi? ‘Did you ever ride a horse?’

 



Edited (2/18/2012) by Abla
Edited (2/18/2012) by Abla

18.       Abla
3648 posts
 28 Feb 2012 Tue 07:34 pm

 

hiç intensifies the meaning of negation markers –mA, değil and yok. Apart from hiç there are other adverbials that also modify the exact meaning of sentence negation:

artık: In affirmative and negative sentences it always marks a turning point. With –mA, değil and yok it says what once was is not any more.

Artık beklemeyeceğim. ‘I am done with waiting.’

asla, katiyen: The speaker is sure the event is never going to take place.

Karısından asla özür dilemez. ‘He is certainly not going to apologize his wife.’

Evlenmeden önce katiyen olmaz. ‘It’s definitely impossible before marriage.’

pek: The speaker wants to reduce the absoluteness of the negation.

O konuşmadan pek bir şey hatırlamıyorum. ‘I don’t remember much about that speech.’

o kadar: The utterance includes a considerable amount of negation.

Aslında dondurmayı o kadar sevmiyorum. ‘Actually I’m not fond of ice-cream at all.’

 

(Lewis, Göksel - Gerslake etc.)

19.       Abla
3648 posts
 11 Mar 2012 Sun 02:06 pm

Quote:Abla

The Persian origin hiç on its own or combined with other material makes adverbs, adjectives and pronouns. The following list is from Göksel – Gerslake 2005:

hiç ‘never’, ‘ever’, ‘at all’

hiçbir (+ noun phrase) ‘no/any…’

hiçbiri(si) ‘none/any (of)…’

hiçbir şey ‘nothing’, ‘anything’

hiçbir yer ‘nowhere’, ‘anywhere’

hiçbir zaman ‘never’, ‘ever’

hiçbir koşulda, hiçbir koşul/ şart altında, hiçbir durumda ‘under no/any circumstances’

kimse/hiç kimse/hiçbir kimse ‘no one’, ‘anyone’

 

If one of the above expressions interacting with negation is in an equivalent of an English subclause the verb of this subclause has to have negative marking:

[Ortalıkta hiç iz bırak|ma|yan] hırsız, yandaki evi de soymuş. ‘The burglar who didn’t leave any traces has also burgled the house next door.’

There is one exception to this rule:

When the subclause functions as a noun in the main clause the negative marking can be in the main clause predicate:

[Kimsenin bu kitabı okuduğu]-nu san|mı|yorum. ‘I don’t think anyone has read this book.’

What about these options? Would they be correct?

?[Kimsenin bu kitabı oku|ma|dığı]-nı sanıyorum.

?[Kimsenin bu kitabı oku|ma|dığı]-nı san|mı|yorum.

(I understand the meaning changes if we change the negation pattern, I am merely asking if the ? sentences are grammatical or not, i.e. if I have understood the rule.)

Questions with hiç or kimse are an exception to the exception: kimse in the subclause, affirmative main clause:

[Kimsenin kapıyı çaldığın] duydun mu? ‘Did you hear anyone ring the door bell?’

 

20.       Abla
3648 posts
 14 Mar 2012 Wed 10:54 am

The derivative suffix –siz denotes negation. It is a productive suffix which means that you can add it to just about any noun (or pronoun) and you will be understood and its use is not limited to certain contexts or words.

 

-siz makes

 

1. adjectives: parasız ‘penniless, free of charge’, eşsiz ‘unequalled’, sınırsız ‘unlimited’

2. adverbs: arabasız ‘without a car’, parasız ‘free of charge’, sensiz ‘without you’

3. nouns: telsiz ‘a wireless device’, Hamursuz ‘passover, the Jewish Easter’

 

Why are police officers called aynasız in slang?

21.       scalpel
1472 posts
 14 Mar 2012 Wed 11:18 am

 

Quoting Abla

Nejat gençliğinde bu kadar inançlı değildi. ‘Nejat wasn’t this stubborn when he was young.’

 

 

inançlı = believer of islam

inatçı = stubborn

22.       scalpel
1472 posts
 14 Mar 2012 Wed 02:02 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Why are police officers called aynasız in slang?

 

There are many stories about why they are called aynasız but they are far from the truth..  

I think* they are aynasız because they are asık suratlı, asabi..   

ayna- mirror/ (surface) parlak, pürüzsüz.. 

aynalı - mirrored/ (thing) parlak yüzeyli, güzel; (person) güzel/gülümseyen yüzlü, 

aynasız - (thing) soluk, donuk; (person) asık suratlı, asabi

*nobody has to agree with me on this

 

23.       scalpel
1472 posts
 14 Mar 2012 Wed 02:14 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

 

What about these options? Would they be correct?

?[Kimsenin bu kitabı oku|ma|dığı]-nı sanıyorum.

?[Kimsenin bu kitabı oku|ma|dığı]-nı san|mı|yorum.

(I understand the meaning changes if we change the negation pattern, I am merely asking if the ? sentences are grammatical or not, i.e. if I have understood the rule.)

 

If my memory doesn´t trick me.. I explained it to you some months ago..

Kimsenin bu kitabı okumadığını (-) sanıyorum (+) => (-) kimse okumamış olmalı

Kimsenin bu kitabı okumadığını (-) sanmıyorum (-) => (+) herkes okumuş olmalı

 

24.       Abla
3648 posts
 14 Mar 2012 Wed 02:38 pm

Well, thank you for your patience, scalpel.

Your explanation of aynasız ´cop´ was in line with grammar. -siz is often the opposite of -li. But when I asked I was expecting something more...colorful.



Edited (3/14/2012) by Abla [Mixed some more things.]

25.       Abla
3648 posts
 15 Mar 2012 Thu 05:14 pm

When the meaning ‘without’ is added to a verb there are two options:

 

1. –mek|siz|in

 

The derivation suffixes –li and –siz often make oppositions. When added to verbal nouns, though, the old intstrumental case ending –n is added to –siz.

 

İnsan ağlamaklı oluyor vallahi. ‘One feels like crying.’

 

Hiçbir akşam ağlamaksızın yatağımda yatamam. ‘I can’t go to sleep any evening and not cry.’

 

2. –meden

 

I always thought this is a combination of infinitive marking and dative ending but historically it is not. Lewis says the oldest occurances of this form are the type –meti where the first syllable was probably the negative –me-! With the adding of the instrumental case it became -metin and the end of it was confused with ablative. (It has been mentioned here also http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_51754.)

 

Ne olur ağlamadan ayrılalım. ‘Please, let’s part without crying.’

 

 

---------------------------------------------

 

Maybe the misunderstanding of the above structure has made me combine ablative case with negation. Oh, but now I remembered another example:

 

Allah kimseyi hardaldan etmesin. ‘Allah, don’t leave anyone without mustard.’ (Orhan Veli Kanık)



Edited (3/15/2012) by Abla
Edited (3/15/2012) by Abla
Edited (3/15/2012) by Abla

26.       Abla
3648 posts
 17 Dec 2012 Mon 11:00 pm

When there are two verbs in a chain  -  one modifying the other  -  is it always the head which is taking the -mA- negation or can you imagine a situation where the negation could be in the direct/indirect object?

 

                               ?koşmamak istiyor

                               ?uyumamaya başlıyor

                               ?başarmamaktan korkuyor

 

I guess it should work with participles but changes the meaning slightly, am I right?

 

                                ?gelmeyeceğimi düşünüyor

                                geleceğimi düşünmüyor

 

Probably it depends on the verb but how, that is what I wonder.



Edited (12/17/2012) by Abla

(26 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
1 2 3
Add reply to this discussion




Turkish Dictionary
Turkish Chat
Open mini chat
New in Forums
Why yer gördüm but yeri geziyorum
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much, makes perfect sense!
Etmeyi vs etmek
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much!
Görülmez vs görünmiyor
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much, very well explained!
Içeri and içeriye
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much for the detailed ...
Present continous tense
HaydiDeer: Got it, thank you!
Hic vs herhangi, degil vs yok
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much!
Rize Artvin Airport Transfer - Rize Tours
rizetours: Dear Guest; In order to make your Black Sea trip more enjoyable, our c...
What does \"kabul ettiğini\" mean?
HaydiDeer: Thank you very much for the detailed ...
Kimse vs biri (anyone)
HaydiDeer: Thank you!
Random Pictures of Turkey
Most commented