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Instrumental case?
1.       sufler
358 posts
 23 Feb 2012 Thu 12:44 am

Hello!

Before I ask my question I must once more give a short introduction how the matter looks in my native language - Polish. In Polish we distinguish so-called Instrumental case that indicates a tool or an instrument that we perform an activity with, for example: Wbijam gwoździe młotkiem - I drive nails with a hammer. (we form młotkiem from nom. młotek). Generally English translation of Polish instrumental require using the word "with". But apart from such obvious examples, it is also applied when talking of nouns which are rather not considered as tools, for example Żyję swoim własnym życiem - I live my own life (życie turns into życiem).

And this is my question: how do you translate such forms into Turkish?

Do they always require using -la/-le/ile? Or maybe there´s another construction?

Another troublesome example for me is a sentence: Żyję problemami swojego życia.

The literal translation would be I live (with) the problems of my life,

however the "with" doesn´t make the sense, because the meaning is that I don´t live with the problems of my life (they are not by my side), but I live the problems of my life instead of living my life (it seems they are my life). It´s kinda similar to living on bread alone and here English speakers use on, not with. What is the look on this case in Turkish?



Edited (2/23/2012) by sufler

2.       Abla
3647 posts
 23 Feb 2012 Thu 07:54 am

A similar issue has been earlier discussed here:

         http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_51854

 

Quote:sufler

Żyję problemami swojego życia.

 

The Turkish verb yaşamak is quite wide in its meaning also. With an object it often means ´to experience, live through´. Look at this dictionary entry, especially the idioms in the bottom:

         http://tureng.com/search/ya%C5%9Famak



Edited (2/23/2012) by Abla

3.       sufler
358 posts
 23 Feb 2012 Thu 11:46 am

So finally I live my own life goes like Kendi hayatımı yaşıyorum. ?

or Kendi hayatımla yaşıyorum. ?

 

And I live the problems of my life would be Hayatımın sorunları yaşıyorum.?

or the second option, with -(y)la ?

4.       scalpel
1472 posts
 24 Feb 2012 Fri 02:02 pm

The Turkish instrumental suffix is -n but it is now rarely used.. you can find it in such cliche words as:için, değin, yazın, kışın, güzün, yayan, ansızın, düşünmeksizin, gündüzün, için için, gerisin (geriye) ..

Instead of this suffix we now use the word ile and its suffix form -le/-la: sen-le, ev-le, aslan-la, iş-le, eli-y-le, sopası-y-la, etc.

But I have recently noticed that some people (including badly educated politicians, and supposingly well educated professors on TV debates and such) like to add -n to ile as if ile is not enough alone:   

Benimlen gel. Dayısıylan gitmiş. Avrupaylan yürümez. Amerikaylan işbirliği.

Shame on them!  

In some dialects le/la changes into ne/na: Avrupaynan, Amerikaynan..

Here is a good example:

Bu kafaynan simit bile sataman o´lum.      

(Bu kafayla simit bile satamazsın oğlum)

It seems -n is not a completelly dead suffix..

sufler liked this message
5.       sufler
358 posts
 24 Feb 2012 Fri 02:21 pm

So, what about my sentences, let´s take the easier one: I live my own life. How would you translate it, with -la or just accusative -i ??

6.       scalpel
1472 posts
 24 Feb 2012 Fri 02:33 pm

 

Quoting sufler

So finally I live my own life goes like Kendi hayatımı yaşıyorum. ?

or Kendi hayatımla yaşıyorum. ?

 

And I live the problems of my life would be Hayatımın sorunları yaşıyorum.?

or the second option, with -(y)la ?

 

1) Kendi hayatımı yaşıyorum

2) Sorunlarımla yaşıyorum ( I live with my problems)

...

İyi/kötü/renkli/renksiz/hareketli/hareketsiz bir hayat yaşıyorum.

...

Bad things/ (often) nice persons are attached your life with "ile"

Dertlerimle/sorunlarımla/sıkıntılarımla/acılarımla/hastalıklarımla yaşıyorum.

Ailemle/annemle/babamla/ kız kardeşimle yaşıyorum.

...

Places attached your life with -de/-da

İstanbul´da/ kentte/ köyde/ çiftlikte yaşıyorum,

Apartman dairesinde/ gecekonduda/ villada yaşıyorum 

...   

sufler liked this message
7.       Mavili
236 posts
 25 Feb 2012 Sat 05:15 pm

 

Quoting scalpel

Instead of this suffix we now use the word ile and its suffix form -le/-la: sen-le, ev-le, aslan-la, iş-le, eli-y-le, sopası-y-la, etc.

 

I know you can have certain words like uçak+la, (by plane) tren+le,(by train), vapur ile (by ferry) And these are understood as methods of transportation.

However, If you just have -le with nouns like aslan+la, ev+le, Iş+le, are they presumed through context to be in accusative? i.e. "with the lion", "with the house" "with the job" ? 

8.       scalpel
1472 posts
 25 Feb 2012 Sat 09:21 pm

 

Quoting Mavili

 

Quoting scalpel

Instead of this suffix we now use the word ile and its suffix form -le/-la: sen-le, ev-le, aslan-la, iş-le, eli-y-le, sopası-y-la, etc.

 

I know you can have certain words like uçak+la, (by plane) tren+le,(by train), vapur ile (by ferry) And these are understood as methods of transportation.

However, If you just have -le with nouns like aslan+la, ev+le, Iş+le, are they presumed through context to be in accusative? i.e. "with the lion", "with the house" "with the job" ? 

 

Let me explain it by the help of English prepositions by and with..

ile has two equivalents in English..

1) by 

*Indicating means of transport, conveyance

otobüsle/ arabayla/ gemiyle => by bus/ car / boat

bir şeyi postayla/ elle göndermek  => send something by post/ hand

*Through the agency, means or instrumentality, of:

sokaklar elektrikle aydınlatılır => the streets are lighted by electricity

geçimini balıkçılıkla sağlıyor => he makes a living by fishing

kurşunla vuruldu=> he was shot by a bullet

2) with

kutuyu kumla doldur- => fill the box with sand

kalemle yaz- =>write with a pen

bir arkadaşla yürüyüşe çık- => go for a walk with a friend

Osmanlılarla savaşta => at war with the Ottomans

en iyi arkadaşıyla bozuştu => he has broken with his best friend

 

But don´t think with always means ile in Turkish..

** -li, -lı, -lu,-lü (having; carrying;characterized by)

kırık kulplu bir fincan => a cup with a broken handle

iki cepli manto => a coat with two pockets

mavi gözlü kız => a girl with blue eyes

çocuklu => with child

** -dan, -den (because of; owing to)

Korkudan / öfkeden titreme => trembling with fear/  rage

Utançtan suspus => silent with shame

Soğuktan titremek => shaking with cold

 

9.       Mavili
236 posts
 25 Feb 2012 Sat 10:55 pm

 

Quoting scalpel

Let me explain it by the help of English prepositions by and with..

ile has two equivalents in English..

1) by 

*Indicating means of transport, conveyance

otobüsle/ arabayla/ gemiyle => by bus/ car / boat

bir şeyi postayla/ elle göndermek  => send something by post/ hand

*Through the agency, means or instrumentality, of:

sokaklar elektrikle aydınlatılır => the streets are lighted by electricity

geçimini balıkçılıkla sağlıyor => he makes a living by fishing

kurşunla vuruldu=> he was shot by a bullet

2) with

kutuyu kumla doldur- => fill the box with sand

kalemle yaz- =>write with a pen

bir arkadaşla yürüyüşe çık- => go for a walk with a friend

Osmanlılarla savaşta => at war with the Ottomans

en iyi arkadaşıyla bozuştu => he has broken with his best friend

 

But don´t think with always means ile in Turkish..

** -li, -lı, -lu,-lü (having; carrying;characterized by)

kırık kulplu bir fincan => a cup with a broken handle

iki cepli manto => a coat with two pockets

mavi gözlü kız => a girl with blue eyes

çocuklu => with child

** -dan, -den (because of; owing to)

Korkudan / öfkeden titreme => trembling with fear/  rage

Utançtan suspus => silent with shame

Soğuktan titremek => shaking with cold

 

 

Another question inspired. For its uses equal to "with" am i correct in reading that it is generally followed by the action in most cases. is there any rule about what verb tense its used with? Like for my tries with this:

Lütfen, Hatice bir örtüyle örtü ser. -Please cover Hatice with a blanket.

Hatice bir örtüyle örtünmüş -Hatice was covered with a blanket.

(Confusing when there is a word that is both a noun and a verb*{#emotions_dlg.shy})

Kediyi havluyla örtünmüş -The cat was covered with a towel.

 

*they give so many different words to say the same thing so sometimes i am not sure which exact one is correct to use in the given context if I want to write practice sentences.{#emotions_dlg.sad}

For example the verb "to cover" there seems to be 7 popular words for this:

karşılamak

kapak

kapsamak

kaplamak

kılıf

örtü

örtmek

If they all can mean the same thing how do we know which is better to use? {#emotions_dlg.angel}

10.       scalpel
1472 posts
 26 Feb 2012 Sun 01:07 am

 

Quoting Mavili


If they all can mean the same thing how do we know which is better to use? {#emotions_dlg.angel}

 

You can use ile with any tense:

örtüyle örter/ örtüyor/ örtecek / örttü / örtmüş

also suffixes for capability, conditional / imperative are possible:

örtüyle örtebilir/ örtse / örtsün

 

 

(1) Lütfen, Haticeyi bir örtüyle ört(üver). -Please cover Hatice with a blanket.

(2) Hatice, bir örtüyle örtünmüş() -Hatice was covered with a blanket.

(3) Kediyi havluyla örtünmüş() -The cat was covered with a towel.

 

I think örtü ser (1) should be örtüver.. 

 

The word ört- is originally a verb = place (one substance or thing ) over or in front of (another); hide or protect (something) in this way; lie or extend over; occupy the surface of:

Eteğini aşağı çek dizlerini ört -- pull your skirt down and cover your knees

örtü is a derived noun.. = thing (particularly made from fabric) that covers

Masayı bir örtüyle ört -- cover the table with a cloth

örtün(mek) is its reflexive form.. and also means hijab

 

The other Turkish verb for cover is kapla- The difference between ört and kapla is that kapla is often used to indicate permanent covering

Bu eski iskemleyi deriyle kaplayalım --we shall cover the seat of this old chair with leather

kapak is a derived noun.. = thing (particularly made from metal, wood, leather,etc) that covers:

Su kaynayınca kapağı kaldır --when the water boils, take the cover/lid

the other derived noun is kaplama (as in yer kaplaması = flooring)

Kapı (door) is from the same root

 

(I am the best Turkish- English dictionary ever {#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}  

 

For example the verb "to cover" there seems to be 7 popular words for this:

karşılamak

kapak (noun)

kapsamak

kaplamak

kılıf (noun)

örtü (noun)

örtmek

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