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-Ip + LOC?
(43 Messages in 5 pages - View all)
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30.       tunci
7149 posts
 09 Apr 2012 Mon 04:21 pm

 

Quoting Mavili

 

I wish someone who is able to help, and has enough time, would write to me.

I request someone who is able to help, and has enough time, to write to me.

Depends on the context of if "wish" is a request or if its just hopeful thinking. Would this change it in Turkish though?

 

Thanks for tidying "my all over the place " sentence Mavili. It is actually a request, in other words it is bit softened imperative [command form of a verb] form by adding "lütfen" ......... "yazsın "

So "request" is more appropriate for the sentence.



Edited (4/9/2012) by tunci

31.       si++
3785 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 11:44 am

 

Quoting AlphaF

Without "da", YOLLARIMA BAKIP HEP BOYNUNU BÜKMÜŞSÜN, the implication is that the speaker has first hand knowledge of the other party waitıng for his return (That he has physically and personally observed the other party waiting for his return).

 

With "da", YOLLARIMA BAKIPDA HEP BOYNUNU BÜKMÜŞSÜN, the implication is that the speaker´s knowledge of the other party waiting for his return is based on what others (3rd parties) told him, not on personal observation.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Well,

 

I don´t see any difference here. Another thing is that -miş suffix is used for hear and say or learned/noticed things. How can it be a first hand knowledge with its involvement?

 

Here´s another example:

 

gidip gelmemek var = there is (as a possibility) no coming back after going (somewhere)

gidip de gelmemek var = there is (as one of the possibilities) no coming back after going (somewhere)

32.       tunci
7149 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 12:47 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

Well,

 

I don´t see any difference here. Another thing is that -miş suffix is used for hear and say or learned/noticed things. How can it be a first hand knowledge with its involvement?

 

Here´s another example:

 

gidip gelmemek var = there is (as a possibility) no coming back after going (somewhere)

gidip de gelmemek var = there is (as one of the possibilities) no coming back after going (somewhere)

 

 

I agree,

Generally "mIş" is used for referring the reported speechs, events., hearing things and being told things.

Imagine an old man called "Uncle Ali ", he goes back to his village where he was born and spent his childhood, after long years. He stands in front of the derelict house where he was born and says to a villager,

- I was born in this house [sighing in a longing voice " Ah "]

The villager comes to me and reports what uncle Ali said to him. And one day I report this to another friend of mine saying ;

Ali Amca doğduğu eve gidip derin bir ah çekmiş --> I was told that Uncle Ali went to the very house where he was born and he said a deep "Oh !" [oh! those were the days!]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

now if we add "de" it wont make a difference in the meaning. [in this particular case by putting "de" the action "went" is stressed ]

Ali Amca doğduğu eve gidip de derin bir ah çekmiş



Edited (4/11/2012) by tunci

33.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 01:41 pm

 

There are two events here

1. yollara bakmak

2. boyun bükmek

that speaker´s knowledge of the second event depends on hearsay is obvious. Our discussion here relates to the first event.

Anyone wish to offer an alternative explanation to the function of "da" ın the first part ?



Edited (4/11/2012) by AlphaF

34.       Abla
3648 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 02:21 pm

Needless to say I hardly understand. It never stopped me from commenting.

 

I guess the question now is whether de/da in the sentence changes the juxtaposition of the verb with -Ip and the predicate, so to say the target area of the grammatical material of the latter. In other words

 

Quote:AlphaF

There are two events here

1. yollara bakmak

2. boyun bükmek

that speaker´s knowledge of the second event depends on hearsay is obvious. Our discussion here relates to the first event.

 

I understand tunci answered it with another example:

 

Quote:tunci

Ali Amca doğduğu eve gidip derin bir ah çekmiş --> I was told that Uncle Ali went to the very house where he was born and he said a deep "Oh !" [oh! those were the days!]

...now if we add "de" it wont make a difference in the meaning. [in this particular case by putting "de" the action "went" is stressed ]

Ali Amca doğduğu eve gidip de derin bir ah çekmiş

 

´I was told both the first and the second event´, i.e. He says -miş affects them both.

 

It reminds me of the talk we had about negation with gokuyum earlier in this very thread.

 

Talking about negation, I can´t quite catch this difference:

 

Quote:si++

Here´s another example:

 

gidip gelmemek var = there is (as a possibility) no coming back after going (somewhere)

gidip de gelmemek var = there is (as one of the possibilities) no coming back after going (somewhere)

 

 

si++, could you just d-r-a-w it for me?



Edited (4/11/2012) by Abla
Edited (4/11/2012) by Abla

35.       tunci
7149 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 02:31 pm

 

Quoting AlphaF

 

There are two events here

1. yollara bakmak

2. boyun bükmek

that speaker´s knowledge of the second event depends on hearsay is obvious. Our discussion here relates to the first event.

Anyone wish to offer an alternative explanation to the function of "da" ın the first part ?

 

There is one event but two actions. As it is a compound verb two actions combined with 1.[hidden "ve" in the first sentence "ıp"] and conjunction "da" in the second sentence. However in the second sentence "da" is stressing and the "adverb". [ Nasıl boynunu bükmüssün ? Yollarıma bakarak ]

1. Yollarıma bakmışsın ve hep boynunu bükmüşsün.

2. Yollarıma bakarak [bakıp da] hep boynunu bükmüşsün. [but subordinate clause is obeying the main clause in Tense wise which is reported tense "miş" [both actions are performed at the same time]

 

 



Edited (4/11/2012) by tunci [corrected function of "da"]

36.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 02:46 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

There is one event but two actions. As it is a compound verb two actions combined with 1.[hidden "ve" in the first sentence "ıp"] and conjunction "da" in the second sentence. However in the second sentence "da" is making the action "adverb". [ Nasıl boynunu bükmüssün ? Yollarıma bakarak ]

1. Yollarıma bakmışsın ve hep boynunu bükmüşsün.

2. Yollarıma bakarak [bakıp da] hep boynunu bükmüşsün. [but subordinate clause is obeying the main clause in Tense wise which is reported tense "miş" [both actions are performed at the same time]

 

 

 

Tunci bakıp is already an adverb. - da doesnt make it an adverb. It connects it with the rest of the sentence and it also stresses it.

37.       tunci
7149 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 02:54 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

 

Tunci bakıp is already an adverb. - da doesnt make it an adverb. It connects it with the rest of the sentence and it also stresses it.

 

You are right Gokuyum. Why did I say that way I dont know It is stresses the first action and conjoins two clauses.



Edited (4/11/2012) by tunci

38.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 02:58 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

You are right Gokuyum. Why did I say that way I dont know It is stresses and conjoins two clauses.

It is normal. Dont worry. Sometimes our brain sees things very differently. 

 

tunci liked this message
39.       tunci
7149 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 03:05 pm

 

May be too much grammar decreasing the oxygen level in my brain. Abla I blame you for that [Şaka şaka]

 

40.       si++
3785 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 03:25 pm

 

Quoting Abla

si++, could you just d-r-a-w it for me?

 

Well,

 

da/de means too, as well. So far so good.

 

When you make use of it after v+ip, what you mean by that is what you mean with the one without "da/de" is another possibility (among others) for something (you need a context to know the other possibilities/options).

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