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The Yielding Vowel in Some Stems
(22 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
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20.       Abla
3647 posts
 27 Apr 2012 Fri 01:19 pm

On second thoughts what I suggested about (C)VCVC stems can´t be true. From my lacking vocabulary I find plenty of (C)VCVC nouns which don´t lose any vowels but keep them tight. Such as okul, bedel, keder, kadın, bahar, besin, onur, ışık, atık, katır, umur, iman, beyaz. So much for that.

21.       scalpel
1472 posts
 29 Apr 2012 Sun 07:24 am

 

Quoting si++

 

 

Right scalpel. But it´s not a rule right? They are all old words and mostly the body parts (because most of them are old words). And they are the sound changes developed over a long period (I am talking about Turkish words). They are exceptions to be memorized and given in dictionary as such (usually where you see karın you also see karnı for example).

 

If it (orta hece ünlüsünün düşmesi) was not a rule how would you expain the missing i- in the following examples when idi, imiş, ise, iken, ile  lose their independence and become suffixes?

ben-im i-di => be-ni-mi-di => be-nim-di

benim imiş => benimmiş

benim ise => benimse

benim iken => benimken

benim ile => benimle

 

After all it is a phonetic event that can be seen here and there, and I don´t understand why some are insisted to imprison the rule only into the group of names for body parts.. 

***

There also can be two disappearing vowels in one word:

alınım idi => alnımdı

sıyırık imiş => sıyrıkmış

***

By the way here are some more words of the same type and they are not body parts at all:

ayrı, ayrık, ayrım, sıyrılmak, sıyrık, savrulmak, savruk, kavrulmak, kavruk, çağrı, çağrış, kıvrım, kıvrık, bağrış, buyruk, evrim, çevrim, devrim, devrik, etc..

Some of these words are very new and apparently they didn´t need a long period to be developed Wink 

 

 

22.       si++
3785 posts
 29 Apr 2012 Sun 10:20 am

 

Quoting scalpel

 

 

If it (orta hece ünlüsünün düşmesi) was not a rule how would you expain the missing i- in the following examples when idi, imiş, ise, iken, ile  lose their independence and become suffixes?

ben-im i-di => be-ni-mi-di => be-nim-di

benim imiş => benimmiş

benim ise => benimse

benim iken => benimken

benim ile => benimle

 

After all it is a phonetic event that can be seen here and there, and I don´t understand why some are insisted to imprison the rule only into the group of names for body parts.. 

***

There also can be two disappearing vowels in one word:

alınım idi => alnımdı

sıyırık imiş => sıyrıkmış

***

By the way here are some more words of the same type and they are not body parts at all:

ayrı, ayrık, ayrım, sıyrılmak, sıyrık, savrulmak, savruk, kavrulmak, kavruk, çağrı, çağrış, kıvrım, kıvrık, bağrış, buyruk, evrim, çevrim, devrim, devrik, etc..

Some of these words are very new and apparently they didn´t need a long period to be developed Wink 

 

 

 

What is a rule? How can you state it for vowel dropping? Does it always apply?

 

Oh yes they are accumulation of long periods.

 

Your examples are dictionary entries (derivational forms) and they are well documented. I was talking about inflectional forms of some words (i.e. "alın" is a dictionary entry but sometimes it becomes "alnı" for example) and they are mostly seen for body parts. (I know you are after the rules but I am not stating a rule it´s only an observation.)

 

Another observation:

Your examples are mostly of the the form (using regular expressions)

*[ğvy]?r* and ? is dropped

Here is an exception for it:

doğurmak -> doğurulmak

 

alın and omuz for example are not of that form:

alın -> alnım

omuz -> omzum

 

This kind of dropping is surely a development over long periods.

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