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The Meaning of Causative
(30 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
1 2 3
1.       Abla
3647 posts
 06 May 2012 Sun 02:03 am

The basic meaning of causative is that the subject causes someone else to do something. In Turkish, what kind of causing does it mean? I am thinking about cases like

 

- forcing (I will make him crawl on his bended knees and beg for mercy.)

- convincing (The nurse got the child to swallow the medicine.)

 

Does simple causative do the job if you translate the sentences into Turkish or does the meaning have to be specified in another way?

2.       Abla
3647 posts
 07 May 2012 Mon 04:36 pm

Maybe it is not the smartest question there is but if someone helped me and even translated the sentences into Turkish I could make the conclusions myself.

3.       tunci
7149 posts
 07 May 2012 Mon 05:23 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

The basic meaning of causative is that the subject causes someone else to do something. In Turkish, what kind of causing does it mean? I am thinking about cases like

 

- forcing (I will make him crawl on his bended knees and beg for mercy.)

- convincing (The nurse got the child to swallow the medicine.)

 

Does simple causative do the job if you translate the sentences into Turkish or does the meaning have to be specified in another way?

 

Onu dizlerinin üstünde süründürüp aman dileteceğim.

Hemşire çocuğa hapı içirdi [yutturdu].

 

 

4.       Abla
3647 posts
 07 May 2012 Mon 06:01 pm

Causative it is. Thanks, tunci.

5.       Abla
3647 posts
 08 May 2012 Tue 10:27 pm

uyumak ´to sleep´

uyutmak ´to make (someone) sleep´

uyutmamak ´not to make (someone) sleep´, ´to make (someone) not sleep, not to let (someone) sleep´

 

Right?

6.       Henry
2604 posts
 08 May 2012 Tue 10:38 pm

 

Quoting Abla

uyumak ´to sleep´

uyutmak ´to make (someone) sleep´

uyutmamak ´not to make (someone) sleep´, ´to make (someone) not sleep, not to let (someone) sleep´

Right?

 

I think uyutmamak might be "to deprive (someone of) sleep", or "to restrict (someone of) sleep", but I´m curious what a Turk thinks.

7.       tunci
7149 posts
 08 May 2012 Tue 10:43 pm

 

Quoting Abla

uyumak ´to sleep´

uyutmak ´to make (someone) sleep´

uyutmamak ´not to make (someone) sleep´, ´to make (someone) not sleep, not to let (someone) sleep´

 

Right?

 

it basically means " not to let someone to sleep "

                        " not to let someone fall into sleep"

Yan komşudaki parti o kadar sesliydi ki sabaha kadar beni uyutmadı --> The party at next door neighbour was so loud that it didnt let me[ fall into] sleep.

 

 

 

 

Henry liked this message
8.       Abla
3647 posts
 08 May 2012 Tue 11:00 pm

Really? Exactly the opposite from what I thought. Good I asked.

 

I learned -mA- usually negates what is right in front of it. In this case it seems that it doesn´t affect the causative marking but jumps over it, negates the stem, and in the end a causative shadow falls over the whole apparatus. I mean, it would make more sense to me if  ´not to let (someone) sleep´ was *uyumatmak....if you understand what I mean.

9.       Abla
3647 posts
 08 May 2012 Tue 11:18 pm

But still

 

uyutmak ´to make (someone) sleep´, ´to let/allow (someone) (to) sleep´   

 

or what?

 

 



Edited (5/8/2012) by Abla

10.       Henry
2604 posts
 09 May 2012 Wed 12:24 am

see here

11.       tunci
7149 posts
 09 May 2012 Wed 12:37 am

 

Quoting Abla

But still

 

uyutmak ´to make (someone) sleep´, ´to let/allow (someone) (to) sleep´   

 

or what?

 

 

 

 "uyutmak" has couple of different lexical meaning as you know ;

uyutmak
/ı/
1. to put (someone) to sleep, cause (someone) to sleep.
2. to alleviate, assuage.
3. colloq. to beguile, deceive, hoodwink, fool, pull the wool over (someone´s) eyes.
4. to hypnotize

but the one that relating your question is " to cause someone to sleep " therefore it is positive factitivite form of the verb "uyumak".

The intransitive verb "uyumak" has become transitive "uyutmak" by adding "t" onto verb stem. This kind of verbs are called "oldurgan" fiiller ".[factitivity]

Yatmak   [to sleep]    ---->       yatırmak [to make[to let] someone sleep ]
Ötmek             ----->        öttürmek
Uyumak          ------->        uyutmak
Gezmek  [to walk about] ---->  gezdirmek. [to make someone walk about]
Kaçmak  [to run, to escape,to go away]      ---->  kaçırmak [to make [cause] someone to go away, to let someone escape]

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 



Edited (5/9/2012) by tunci
Edited (5/9/2012) by tunci

12.       tunci
7149 posts
 09 May 2012 Wed 01:32 am

 

The difference between Factitivity and Causitivity in Turkish is ;

The factitive verbs are formed from an intransitive verbs [verbs that dont take an object] and it [verb] becomes transitive [verb that can take an object] by using "-dİr, -t, -r"  suffixes;

Uyumak --> To sleep --> Ben uyudum [ no object in this sentence]

Uyutmak -->  Çocuğu uyuttum [I made the child sleep ] --> Object is "the child"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The causitive verbs are formed from already transitive verbs [verbs that takes object] and it [verb] still stays transitive by adding same suffixes "-dİr, -t, -r" .

Note that we can increase the transitiviness level of the verb by adding another suffix !

içmek ---> içirmek [to make someone to drink something] --> içirtmek [ to get someone to get someone to drink something

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In causitive forms we get [hire] someone to do the action whereas in factitive forms the person himself/herself perform [we dont get anyone to do] the action.

Çocuğu uyuttum --> I made the child [fall in] to sleep. --> Here I MYSELF made the child to sleep.

Dadıya bebeği uyutturdum --> I got nany to make the child [fall in ] to sleep.--> Here I GOT NANY to make the child to sleep.

 

 

  

 



Edited (5/9/2012) by tunci
Edited (5/9/2012) by tunci

Moha-ios and Abla liked this message
13.       Henry
2604 posts
 09 May 2012 Wed 01:34 am

Another causative verb for learners

uyandırmak

Yarın sabah saat yedide beni uyandırır mısın?

Will you wake me up at 7 o´clock tomorrow morning?

uyanmak = to wake up

uyandırmak = to wake (someone) up, to cause (someone) to wake up

14.       Abla
3647 posts
 09 May 2012 Wed 01:53 am

Thank you for your patient replies, Henry, tunci.

 

I believe you but still the meaning of uyutmamak surprises me. If I say

 

                                   Çocuğu henüz uyutmadım

 

does it mean ´I still didn´t let the child sleep´ ?

 

What if I simply want to say ´I didn´t put the child to sleep yet´ ?

15.       tunci
7149 posts
 09 May 2012 Wed 02:01 am

 

Quoting Abla

Thank you for your patient replies, Henry, tunci.

 

I believe you but still the meaning of uyutmamak surprises me. If I say

 

                                   Çocuğu henüz uyutmadım

 

does it mean ´I still didn´t let the child sleep´ ?

 

What if I simply want to say ´I didn´t put the child to sleep yet´ ?

 

In that context, it is exactly what you thought Abla. Uyutmak also can mean "to put the baby to sleep [by singing] " 

 

 

16.       Abla
3647 posts
 09 May 2012 Wed 02:05 am

So there are two possible interpretations for the negation. Depends on the context. I got what I wanted.

 

A sleepy topic. Good night.

17.       tunci
7149 posts
 09 May 2012 Wed 02:09 am

 

For instance ;

Ye-mek --> to eat

Yedirmek can mean "to make someone to eat something" OR " to let someone to eat something " OR " to feed " [in this context in english it is an independent  verb [to feed]

and if we negate it, yedirmemek can mean " not to let someone to eat something" OR " not to make someone to eat something " OR " not to feed someone "

 

18.       si++
3785 posts
 09 May 2012 Wed 09:49 am

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

it basically means " not to let someone to sleep "

                        " not to let someone fall into sleep"

Yan komşudaki parti o kadar sesliydi ki sabaha kadar beni uyutmadı --> The party at next door neighbour was so loud that it didnt let me[ fall into] sleep.

 

 

 

 

 

This reminds me the following thread started by Abla:

http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish/forum/forumTitle_50959_3

 

See for example post#28.

19.       Abla
3647 posts
 09 May 2012 Wed 04:54 pm

Quote:tunci

Yedirmek can mean "to make someone to eat something" OR " to let someone to eat something " OR " to feed " [in this context in english it is an independent  verb [to feed]

and if we negate it, yedirmemek can mean " not to let someone to eat something" OR " not to make someone to eat something " OR " not to feed someone "

 

As a result, causative seems to be quite flexible what comes to the willingness of the patient. The "causing" can mean just about anything from forcing to allowing or giving a chance. It looks like pure grammar but it has a lot to do with the context.

 

This discussion cleared things for me at least.



Edited (5/9/2012) by Abla

20.       Abla
3647 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 06:14 pm

Quote:tunci

Note that we can increase the transitiviness level of the verb by adding another suffix !

içmek ---> içirmek [to make someone to drink something] --> içirtmek [ to get someone to get someone to drink something

 

Does the double causative marking always have to be taken literally? I mean does there have to be patient1 who causes patient2 to perform an action that the agent has ordered. Or can this double marking be used for just stylistic reasons?

 

In case there are patient1 and patient2 and you want to name them both how do you mark them? Do they both take dative? For instance,

 

              I (NOM) told the nurse (DAT) to make the boy (DAT) take the medicine (ACC)

 

or how is it?

21.       tunci
7149 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 08:21 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

 

Does the double causative marking always have to be taken literally? I mean does there have to be patient1 who causes patient2 to perform an action that the agent has ordered. Or can this double marking be used for just stylistic reasons?

 

In case there are patient1 and patient2 and you want to name them both how do you mark them? Do they both take dative? For instance,

 

              I (NOM) told the nurse (DAT) to make the boy (DAT) take the medicine (ACC)

 

or how is it?

 

[Ben], hemşireye çocuğa ilacı içirmesini söyledim.

 

22.       tomac
975 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 09:28 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

[Ben], hemşireye çocuğa ilacı içirmesini söyledim.

 

 

So, in other words:

[Ben] çocuğa ilacı içirttim.

 

Is it possible to use verb "içirtmek" here, but also stating that it was nurse whom I asked to make child take a medicine? Does the following sentence make any sense in Turkish? (I mean - I still want to use verb "içirtmek" but also I want to put word "hemşire" in the sentence)

[Ben] hemşireye çocuğa ilacı içirttim.



Edited (5/12/2012) by tomac

23.       Abla
3647 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 10:07 pm

Quote:tomac

[Ben] hemşireye çocuğa ilacı içirttim.

 

Thank you, tomac. It was the causative sentence that I actually ment but I was careless when writing my question.

 

Isn´t it funny that there are two constituents with dative in the sentence? Is it after all the word order that tells us who gets whom to take the medicine?

24.       tunci
7149 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 10:09 pm

 

Quoting tomac

 

 

So, in other words:

[Ben] çocuğa ilacı içirttim.

 

Is it possible to use verb "içirtmek" here, but also stating that it was nurse whom I asked to make child take a medicine? Does the following sentence make any sense in Turkish? (I mean - I still want to use verb "içirtmek" but also I want to put word "hemşire" in the sentence)

[Ben] hemşireye çocuğa ilacı içirttim.

 

If you want to use hemşire with içirtmek, then you can say this way ;

[Ben]  çocuğa ilacı hemşireye içirttim.

25.       tomac
975 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 10:10 pm

I agree with you Abla - actually, I am not sure if this sentence is correct - I have the same doubts as you and I posted it to explain them better. I hope someone can help and make it clear for us

 

Edit: Sorry, did not notice Tunci´s reply!



Edited (5/12/2012) by tomac

26.       tunci
7149 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 11:23 pm

 

I´d like to write a different example ;

 

Say my mum  got her blood pressure checked at the hospital.

Annem tansiyonunu ölçtürdü. --> My mum got[had] her blood pressure checked.

In this sentence we don´t know who checked my mum´s blood pressure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we want to say ,she got the nurse to check her blood pressure ;

Annem hemşireye tansiyonunu ölçr. --> My mother got a nurse to check her blood pressure.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the doctor got a nurse to check my mother´s blood pressure.

Doktor hemşireye annemin tansiyonunu ölçtürttü. -->The doctor got the nurse to check my mother´s blood pressure.

[note eople dont always increase the causitiveness in daily speech. I mean you can hear just "ölçtürdü"]

Doktor hemşireye annemin tansiyonunu ölçtür

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we dont mention "the nurse" with same sentence above ;

Doktor annemin tansiyonunu ölçtür.   OR ;

Doktor annemin tansiyonunu ölçtürttü.

The doctor got someone to check my mother"s  blood pressure.

Here, the doctor got someone [but we dont know that someone however we can easly guess as the only person doctors get  to do that job is most probably "a nurse".


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And imagine there are two nurses called Ayşe and Fatma , doctor asks nurse Ayşe to get nurse Fatma to check my mother´s blood pressure ;

Doktor , hemşire Ayşe´ye annemin tansiyonunu hemşire Fatma´ya ölçtürtmesini söyledi.





 

 



Edited (5/12/2012) by tunci

tomac and Abla liked this message
27.       Abla
3647 posts
 13 May 2012 Sun 12:01 am

If there is a transitive predicate marked with causative and the object doesn´t show for some reason does the patient take the position of the direct object? For instance

 

                         How can I make the sick child drink?

 

would it be

 

                         ?Hasta çocuğu/çocuğa nasıl içirebilirim?           ?

28.       tunci
7149 posts
 13 May 2012 Sun 12:06 am

 

Now there are three nurses called Ayşe, Fatma and Aylin , doctor asks nurse Ayşe to tell nurse Fatma to get nurse Aylin to check my mother´s blood pressure ;

Doktor , hemşire Ayşe´ye, annemin tansiyonunu hemşire Fatma´nın hemşire Aylin´e ölçtürtmesini söyledi.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After all those chain of causitivity my mother´s blood pressure might get worse.. May God forbid ..



29.       tunci
7149 posts
 13 May 2012 Sun 12:25 am

 

Quoting Abla

If there is a transitive predicate marked with causative and the object doesn´t show for some reason does the patient take the position of the direct object? For instance

 

                         How can I make the sick child drink?

 

would it be

 

                         ?Hasta çocuğu/çocuğa nasıl içirebilirim?           ?

 

In that case that [Hasta çocuğa] would be indirect object [ Dolaylı tümleç] as it is the answer of the question "kime" [to who]

[To] who I can make drink ?

30.       Abla
3647 posts
 13 May 2012 Sun 12:36 am

Thank you, tunci. The rules seem pretty clear to me now but let´s see what happens when I try to put them into practice.

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