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The Meaning of Causative
(30 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
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20.       Abla
3647 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 06:14 pm

Quote:tunci

Note that we can increase the transitiviness level of the verb by adding another suffix !

içmek ---> içirmek [to make someone to drink something] --> içirtmek [ to get someone to get someone to drink something

 

Does the double causative marking always have to be taken literally? I mean does there have to be patient1 who causes patient2 to perform an action that the agent has ordered. Or can this double marking be used for just stylistic reasons?

 

In case there are patient1 and patient2 and you want to name them both how do you mark them? Do they both take dative? For instance,

 

              I (NOM) told the nurse (DAT) to make the boy (DAT) take the medicine (ACC)

 

or how is it?

21.       tunci
7149 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 08:21 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

 

Does the double causative marking always have to be taken literally? I mean does there have to be patient1 who causes patient2 to perform an action that the agent has ordered. Or can this double marking be used for just stylistic reasons?

 

In case there are patient1 and patient2 and you want to name them both how do you mark them? Do they both take dative? For instance,

 

              I (NOM) told the nurse (DAT) to make the boy (DAT) take the medicine (ACC)

 

or how is it?

 

[Ben], hemşireye çocuğa ilacı içirmesini söyledim.

 

22.       tomac
975 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 09:28 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

[Ben], hemşireye çocuğa ilacı içirmesini söyledim.

 

 

So, in other words:

[Ben] çocuğa ilacı içirttim.

 

Is it possible to use verb "içirtmek" here, but also stating that it was nurse whom I asked to make child take a medicine? Does the following sentence make any sense in Turkish? (I mean - I still want to use verb "içirtmek" but also I want to put word "hemşire" in the sentence)

[Ben] hemşireye çocuğa ilacı içirttim.



Edited (5/12/2012) by tomac

23.       Abla
3647 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 10:07 pm

Quote:tomac

[Ben] hemşireye çocuğa ilacı içirttim.

 

Thank you, tomac. It was the causative sentence that I actually ment but I was careless when writing my question.

 

Isn´t it funny that there are two constituents with dative in the sentence? Is it after all the word order that tells us who gets whom to take the medicine?

24.       tunci
7149 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 10:09 pm

 

Quoting tomac

 

 

So, in other words:

[Ben] çocuğa ilacı içirttim.

 

Is it possible to use verb "içirtmek" here, but also stating that it was nurse whom I asked to make child take a medicine? Does the following sentence make any sense in Turkish? (I mean - I still want to use verb "içirtmek" but also I want to put word "hemşire" in the sentence)

[Ben] hemşireye çocuğa ilacı içirttim.

 

If you want to use hemşire with içirtmek, then you can say this way ;

[Ben]  çocuğa ilacı hemşireye içirttim.

25.       tomac
975 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 10:10 pm

I agree with you Abla - actually, I am not sure if this sentence is correct - I have the same doubts as you and I posted it to explain them better. I hope someone can help and make it clear for us

 

Edit: Sorry, did not notice Tunci´s reply!



Edited (5/12/2012) by tomac

26.       tunci
7149 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 11:23 pm

 

I´d like to write a different example ;

 

Say my mum  got her blood pressure checked at the hospital.

Annem tansiyonunu ölçtürdü. --> My mum got[had] her blood pressure checked.

In this sentence we don´t know who checked my mum´s blood pressure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we want to say ,she got the nurse to check her blood pressure ;

Annem hemşireye tansiyonunu ölçr. --> My mother got a nurse to check her blood pressure.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the doctor got a nurse to check my mother´s blood pressure.

Doktor hemşireye annemin tansiyonunu ölçtürttü. -->The doctor got the nurse to check my mother´s blood pressure.

[note eople dont always increase the causitiveness in daily speech. I mean you can hear just "ölçtürdü"]

Doktor hemşireye annemin tansiyonunu ölçtür

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we dont mention "the nurse" with same sentence above ;

Doktor annemin tansiyonunu ölçtür.   OR ;

Doktor annemin tansiyonunu ölçtürttü.

The doctor got someone to check my mother"s  blood pressure.

Here, the doctor got someone [but we dont know that someone however we can easly guess as the only person doctors get  to do that job is most probably "a nurse".


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And imagine there are two nurses called Ayşe and Fatma , doctor asks nurse Ayşe to get nurse Fatma to check my mother´s blood pressure ;

Doktor , hemşire Ayşe´ye annemin tansiyonunu hemşire Fatma´ya ölçtürtmesini söyledi.





 

 



Edited (5/12/2012) by tunci

tomac and Abla liked this message
27.       Abla
3647 posts
 13 May 2012 Sun 12:01 am

If there is a transitive predicate marked with causative and the object doesn´t show for some reason does the patient take the position of the direct object? For instance

 

                         How can I make the sick child drink?

 

would it be

 

                         ?Hasta çocuğu/çocuğa nasıl içirebilirim?           ?

28.       tunci
7149 posts
 13 May 2012 Sun 12:06 am

 

Now there are three nurses called Ayşe, Fatma and Aylin , doctor asks nurse Ayşe to tell nurse Fatma to get nurse Aylin to check my mother´s blood pressure ;

Doktor , hemşire Ayşe´ye, annemin tansiyonunu hemşire Fatma´nın hemşire Aylin´e ölçtürtmesini söyledi.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After all those chain of causitivity my mother´s blood pressure might get worse.. May God forbid ..



29.       tunci
7149 posts
 13 May 2012 Sun 12:25 am

 

Quoting Abla

If there is a transitive predicate marked with causative and the object doesn´t show for some reason does the patient take the position of the direct object? For instance

 

                         How can I make the sick child drink?

 

would it be

 

                         ?Hasta çocuğu/çocuğa nasıl içirebilirim?           ?

 

In that case that [Hasta çocuğa] would be indirect object [ Dolaylı tümleç] as it is the answer of the question "kime" [to who]

[To] who I can make drink ?

30.       Abla
3647 posts
 13 May 2012 Sun 12:36 am

Thank you, tunci. The rules seem pretty clear to me now but let´s see what happens when I try to put them into practice.

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