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The -miş in words
(11 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
[1] 2
1.       tristerecuerdos
518 posts
 06 May 2012 Sun 07:53 pm

hello can someone help me understand this? at least explain it..

What does "demiştim" means? 

 

I guess its something like; "I might have said" (but I´m not sure of it), for example.

 

What does the use of the miş tense in the first person singular mean? I have a trouble understanding it, especially with verbs regarding feelings and thoughts. 

 

Like in one of Tarkan´s songs where he sings: "sevmişim". 

Man for God´s sake;  doesn´t he know if he loved or what? 

What´s the rhetorical picture behind this, please?

Thanks!

Blue Wizard liked this message
2.       Henry
2604 posts
 06 May 2012 Sun 10:54 pm

 

Quoting tristerecuerdos

hello can someone help me understand this? at least explain it..

What does "demiştim" means? 

 

I guess its something like; "I might have said" (but I´m not sure of it), for example.

 

What does the use of the miş tense in the first person singular mean? I have a trouble understanding it, especially with verbs regarding feelings and thoughts. 

 

Like in one of Tarkan´s songs where he sings: "sevmişim". 

Man for God´s sake;  doesn´t he know if he loved or what? 

What´s the rhetorical picture behind this, please?

Thanks!

 

I will try to explain it as I understand things.

Firstly I assume you are aware that the verb root + miş + personal ending is a pure past tense form. It is most commonly used when the event was not directly witnessed, eg something you read, heard on the radio or from someone else or were told by someone. It would also be used for saying something about when you were a baby, as you would have no recollection of this. 

I guess you are not aware that when miş is followed by other tenses, that this is a completely different meaning and usage. Your example of demiştim can be equated to the English past perfect tense, I had said.

There are plenty of past posts on this site discussing these other uses of miş

See one example here

 

 

nifrtity liked this message
3.       Abla
3647 posts
 06 May 2012 Sun 11:32 pm

When I saw your link, Henry, I remembered there must be something about this in my handbag. I found it.

 

                            Ne aramıştınız?

 

was written next to a search box on a web site. According to the replies in your link it seems that it is a polite question, something like ´What was it that you were looking for?´ I don´t know if it is a proper English sentence but in many languages past tense forms are used for expressing politeness or a respecting distance between the speaker and the listener.

 

But I feel the use of -miş- in tristerequerdos´s examples has another function which I at least can´t understand no more than the example

 

                             Bu sabah erken kalkmıştım

 

of your link. The combination of sg 1st person and -miş- past seems to be the problem.

 

Btw, is the hearsay meaning there if -miş- is combined with -di-? I have learned even the -miş- participle has lost this special meaning.



Edited (5/6/2012) by Abla

4.       gokuyum
5049 posts
 07 May 2012 Mon 01:08 am

.....duyulan geçmiş zaman kipinin hikayesi, her ne kadar şekilce duyulan geçmiş zamanı gösteriyor ise de, yüklendiği görev bakımından artık bu işlevini yitirerek görülen geçmiş zamanın hikayesini karşılar duruma gelmiştir. Bu bakımdan, duyulan geçmiş zamanın hikaye çekimi, şekilce var olan ama işlevece var olmayan bir birleşik kip olarak kabul edilmelidir(1).

(1) Zeynep Korkmaz, Türkiye Türkçesi Grameri (Şekil Bilgisi), sy 737,  2003 Ankara, Türk Dil Kurumu Yayınları

 

Lets try to translate this complicated explanation. God help me. I will translate it literally without using the known gramar terms, maybe you can put them in text for me later.

 

Although the story (-di) of heard past tense mode (-miş ) points out heard past tense (-miş ) gramatically, in terms of the task it has, it now meets the story (-di) of seen past tense (-di) by losing its function. In this perspective, the conjugation of story (-di) of the heard past tense (-miş ) must be accepted as a united mode that exists gramatically but doesnt exist functionally.

 

I hope this helps.

 



Edited (5/7/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (5/7/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (5/7/2012) by gokuyum

tunci liked this message
5.       Henry
2604 posts
 07 May 2012 Mon 01:35 am

I did a short Turkish course in Istanbul last week, and here are some of my notes about the ´miş´ tense.

My teacher listed 7 main ways the tense is used

1 Ben direkt görmedim, ama duydum / TV´de syrettim / okudum ve sonra başka kişiye anlatmak için "miş" kullanıyoruz. (The course was taught in Turkish)

(We use the "miş" tense for when I didn´t see it directly, but I heard it / saw it on TV / or read it, and later I told this to another person)

Annem ve babam 50 yıl önce evlenmişler

(My mother and father were married 50 years ago)

2 Dedikodu (Gossip)

Duydun mu, Angelina Jolie 3 kez hamileymiş.

(Have you heard, Angelina Jolie is pregnant for the 3rd time.)

3 Sonra farketmek (to realise later)

Oo! deniz soğukmuş

(Ooo! the sea water is cold) like when you initially put your foot in the water and realise it is cold.

Hmm!  Eline sağlık, yemek çok  güzel olmüş.

(Hmm! Health to your hands, the food is very nice) when you try some food and realise it is very tasty.

4 Yalakalık yap (buttering up somebody)

Pembe yalan söyle (telling a small (pink) lie)

5 Sürpriz (for surprises)

Aaa! Cüzdanımı evde unutmuşum.

(Aaa! I must have left my wallet at home)

When you go to pay someone and discover your wallet is not in your pants or bag.

Or when you look out your window in the morning and discover everything is covered in snow, because it snowed last night. You hadn´t seen it snow, but obviously it has.

6 "meğer" realite farklı, "güya" yalan varsa (different to what you thought)

Güya ben rakı içmişim sarhoş olmuşum, ama hepsi yalan.

(Supposedly I drank raki and was drunk, but it was all a lie.)

Meğer gelmemiş.

(It seems that he didn´t come.)

7 Masal, fıkra ve hikaye (Tales, annecdotes and stories)

Bir varmış, bir yokmuş (once upon a time)

bir zamanlar (at one time)

Some other things that may help you .....

Bebekken saçlarım sapsarıymış. [Here you should use ´imiş´]

(When I was a baby my hair was very blonde.)

Çocukken saçlarım sapsarıydı. [Here it´s OK to use ´idi´]

(When I was a child my hair was very blonde.)

 



Edited (5/7/2012) by Henry [unwanted smiley]

Moha-ios, Aida krishan, tunci, Abla and gokuyum liked this message
6.       gokuyum
5049 posts
 07 May 2012 Mon 01:38 am

 

Quoting Henry

I did a short Turkish course in Istanbul last week, and here are some of my notes about the ´miş´ tense.

My teacher listed 7 main ways the tense is used

1 Ben direkt görmedim, ama duydum / TV´de syrettim / okudum ve sonra başka kişiye anlatmak için "miş" kullanıyoruz. (The course was taught in Turkish)

(We use the "miş" tense for when I didn´t see it directly, but I heard it / saw it on TV / or read it, and later I told this to another person)

Annem ve babam 50 yıl önce evlenmişler

(My mother and father were married 50 years ago)

2 Dedikodu (Gossip)

Duydun mu, Angelina Jolie 3 kez hamileymiş.

(Have you heard, Angelina Jolie is pregnant for the 3rd time.)

3 Sonra farketmek (to realise later)

Oo! deniz soğukmuş

(Ooo! the sea water is cold) like when you initially put your foot in the water and realise it is cold.

Hmm!  Eline sağlık, yemek çok  güzel olmüş.

(Hmm! Health to your hands, the food is very nice) when you try some food and realise it is very tasty.

4 Yalakalık yap (buttering up somebody)

Pembe yalan söyle (telling a small (pink) lie)

5 Sürpriz (for surprises)

Aaa! Cüzdanımı evde unutmuşum.

(Aaa! I must have left my wallet at home)

When you go to pay someone and discover your wallet is not in your pants or bag.

Or when you look out your window in the morning and discover everything is covered in snow, because it snowed last night. You hadn´t seen it snow, but obviously it has.

6 "meğer" realite farklı, "güya" yalan varsa (different to what you thought)

Güya ben rakı içmişim sarhoş olmuşum, ama hepsi yalan.

(Supposedly I drank raki and was drunk, but it was all a lie.)

Meğer gelmemiş.

(It seems that he didn´t come.)

7 Masal, fıkra ve hikaye (Tales, annecdotes and stories)

Bir varmış, bir yokmuş (once upon a time)

bir zamanlar (at one time)

Some other things that may help you .....

Bebekken saçlarım sapsarıymış. (Here you should use ´imiş´

(When I was a baby my haır was very blonde.)

Çocukken saçlarım sapsarıydı. (Here it´s OK to use ´idi´

(When I was a child my hair was very blonde.)

 

 

Very useful notes Henry. Thanks.

Henry liked this message
7.       tunci
7149 posts
 07 May 2012 Mon 02:17 am

 

Quoting Abla

When I saw your link, Henry, I remembered there must be something about this in my handbag. I found it.

 

                            Ne aramıştınız?

 

was written next to a search box on a web site. According to the replies in your link it seems that it is a polite question, something like ´What was it that you were looking for?´ I don´t know if it is a proper English sentence but in many languages past tense forms are used for expressing politeness or a respecting distance between the speaker and the listener.

 

But I feel the use of -miş- in tristerequerdos´s examples has another function which I at least can´t understand no more than the example

 

                             Bu sabah erken kalkmıştım

 

of your link. The combination of sg 1st person and -miş- past seems to be the problem.

 

Btw, is the hearsay meaning there if -miş- is combined with -di-? I have learned even the -miş- participle has lost this special meaning.

 

That kind of fixed forms  "Ne aramıştınız ? Ne istemiştiniz ?" abandon their original tense and becomes [as you pointed out] " polite way of asking question in present tense"

Could I ask if what would you like to [have] ?

Could I ask if what is that you are looking for ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As compound tense  VERB + MIŞ + İDİ[Simple past tense copulative] + Personal marking

Bu sabah erken kalkmıştım--> kalk + mış + idi + m = kalkmıştım.

 This morning early I got up --> literal translation 

  I got up early this morning

1. This action has been witnessed and performed by me [ hikaye geçmiş zaman [past tense]

2. This action is kind of conditional [ but,although,while,in order to ]

Yine otobüsü kaçırdım halbuki bu sabah erken kalmıştım.

I missed the bus again although [however]I got up early this morning.

İşe geç kalmayayım diye bu sabah erken kalkmıştım.

I got up early this morning in order to not to be late for work.

Bu sabah erken kalkmıştım ama seni göremedim.

I got up early this morning but I couldnt see you.


 



Edited (5/7/2012) by tunci

8.       Abla
3647 posts
 07 May 2012 Mon 03:52 pm

Quote:tunci

This action has been witnessed and performed by me

 

To the point, tunci. I got it.

9.       tristerecuerdos
518 posts
 08 May 2012 Tue 01:46 pm

 

Quoting Henry

 

 

I will try to explain it as I understand things.

Firstly I assume you are aware that the verb root + miş + personal ending is a pure past tense form. It is most commonly used when the event was not directly witnessed, eg something you read, heard on the radio or from someone else or were told by someone. It would also be used for saying something about when you were a baby, as you would have no recollection of this. 

I guess you are not aware that when miş is followed by other tenses, that this is a completely different meaning and usage. Your example of demiştim can be equated to the English past perfect tense, I had said.

There are plenty of past posts on this site discussing these other uses of miş

See one example here

 

 

 

thanks Henry, this is a good explanation! you´ve helped

10.       tristerecuerdos
518 posts
 08 May 2012 Tue 01:47 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

.....duyulan geçmiş zaman kipinin hikayesi, her ne kadar şekilce duyulan geçmiş zamanı gösteriyor ise de, yüklendiği görev bakımından artık bu işlevini yitirerek görülen geçmiş zamanın hikayesini karşılar duruma gelmiştir. Bu bakımdan, duyulan geçmiş zamanın hikaye çekimi, şekilce var olan ama işlevece var olmayan bir birleşik kip olarak kabul edilmelidir(1).

(1) Zeynep Korkmaz, Türkiye Türkçesi Grameri (Şekil Bilgisi), sy 737,  2003 Ankara, Türk Dil Kurumu Yayınları

 

Lets try to translate this complicated explanation. God help me. I will translate it literally without using the known gramar terms, maybe you can put them in text for me later.

 

Although the story (-di) of heard past tense mode (-miş ) points out heard past tense (-miş ) gramatically, in terms of the task it has, it now meets the story (-di) of seen past tense (-di) by losing its function. In this perspective, the conjugation of story (-di) of the heard past tense (-miş ) must be accepted as a united mode that exists gramatically but doesnt exist functionally.

 

I hope this helps.

 

thanks gokuyum! 

 

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