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passive and -dik
1.       sufler
358 posts
 11 May 2012 Fri 01:29 pm

Hello!

As usual, I took this from press:

Bu tabletlerde 60 kadının isminin yazdığı da açıklandı. 

Is this sentence correct grammatically?

Because I´d rather say: Bu tabletlerde 60 kadının isminin yazıldığı da açıklandı. 

 

I think it wasn´t women names which wrote on the tables, but they were written there...

2.       tunci
7149 posts
 11 May 2012 Fri 01:59 pm

 

Quoting sufler

Hello!

As usual, I took this from press:

Bu tabletlerde 60 kadının isminin yazdığı da açıklandı. 

Is this sentence correct grammatically?

Because I´d rather say: Bu tabletlerde 60 kadının isminin yazıldığı da açıklandı. 

 

I think it wasn´t women names which wrote on the tables, but they were written there...

 

In the context "yazdığı" is used as " it says", " it mentions"  so it seems ok to me.

It was explained that these tablets  also mention 60 women names.

It was explained that on these tablets says 60 women names.

 



Edited (5/11/2012) by tunci

GulBahar liked this message
3.       Abla
3647 posts
 11 May 2012 Fri 05:00 pm

It looks like an ergative clause where the object has been risen to the position of subject with no passive marking involved.

 

They are not very usual. I collect them in my handbag. Thanks, sufler.

4.       si++
3785 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 11:49 am

 

Quoting sufler

Hello!

As usual, I took this from press:

Bu tabletlerde 60 kadının isminin yazdığı da açıklandı. 

Is this sentence correct grammatically?

Because I´d rather say: Bu tabletlerde 60 kadının isminin yazıldığı da açıklandı. 

 

I think it wasn´t women names which wrote on the tables, but they were written there...

 

Yes both of them are OK. But there is a difference as you can see.

 

The first one is shorter and is preferred.

 

Not a perfect rule, but a definite tendency.  Frequent use goes along with short words; short words go along with frequent use.


Consider folowing examples:

İçerisi çok sıcak cam açın = It´s too hot inside, open the windows.

 

Cam = glass

Pencere = windows

 

As you can see we prefer cam to pencere and cam (1 syllable) is shorter than pencere (3 syllables).

 

As Abla says this tendency creates ergative usages.

 

Another similar example (with passive involved):

 

Bu fırsat kaçırılmaz = this opportunity should not be missed

vs

Bu fırsat kaçmaz = same meaning as above but literally it means this opportunity does not miss

 

Here the second one is preferred as it is shorter.

 

5.       Abla
3647 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 02:09 pm

Quote:si++

Bu fırsat kaçırılmaz = this opportunity should not be missed

vs

Bu fırsat kaçmaz = same meaning as above but literally it means this opportunity does not miss

 

1) kaç|ır|ıl|maz: you have CAUS + PASS here because the root verb kaç|mak is intransitive. But sufler´s yazmak is transitive. They are not exactly the same, I mean syntactically.

 

2) Suppose the aorist was used as a participle attribute, does it work the same way?

 

                            kaçmaz (bir) fırsat

                            kaçırılmaz (fir) fırsat

 

And moreover, what if it was a truely ergative situation like

 

                            ?yazmaz bir mektup

                            ?yazılmaz bir mektup

 

                            ?çevirmez bir metin

                            ?çevirilmez bir metin             ?

 

(Aorist participle is one beautiful and powerful verb form. Seeing it always delights me. )



Edited (5/12/2012) by Abla
Edited (5/12/2012) by Abla

6.       si++
3785 posts
 12 May 2012 Sat 02:34 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

 

1) kaç|ır|ıl|maz: you have CAUS + PASS here because the root verb kaç|mak is intransitive. But sufler´s yazmak is transitive. They are not exactly the same, I mean syntactically.

 

Yes, but haven´t we discussed it before?

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_52878_0 (for example post#21)

 

2) Suppose the aorist was used as a participle attribute, does it work the same way?

 

                            kaçmaz (bir) fırsat

                            kaçırılmaz (fir) fırsat

Seems OK to me

 

And moreover, what if it was a truely ergative situation like

 

                            ?yazmaz bir mektup nop

                            ?yazılmaz bir mektup

 

                            ?çevirmez bir metin nop

                            ?çevirilmez bir metin             ?

 

(Aorist participle is one beautiful and powerful verb form. Seeing it always delights me. )

 

 

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