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10.       vineyards
1954 posts
 02 Nov 2012 Fri 09:44 am

In case our starting point is the age of a country, we must remember Turkey is a much older country compared to the US. However, we must also note that the US shares the sociocultural wealth of the European continent. That also means the US and Europe have been in the same bandwagon since the beginning. Therefore, to understand the evolution of the regime in the US, we must study the near history of Europe.

Over the decades, many regimes were tested in Europe. From the Holy State Model of the medieval times to the fascist regime of Franco in Spain or the National Socialism of the Hitler era along with communism and social democracy they flourished and failed on the European soil. Its this diversity and openness for a change that made the creation of the US possible. The US was a new ideal invested in a land with vast opportunities that could support a new system.

How did Europe get to that point? All this relentless change and striving for a better and more efficient formation was not without a reason. Europe was threatened by Turkey. Turkey had better armies and a stronger economy then. The entire Sea of Mediterranean was controlled by the Ottoman fleet. Traditional trade routes were also controlled by the Turks. Europe had to do something to get rid of the Turks and they discovered America while trying to find a new way to reach India. Colonism, slavery, exploitation of the resources of the new-found-land gave Europe and edge over their archrivals. They had more money, larger armies (reinforced by their colonies). The efforts they made to reach, control and govern these new lands caused them to excel in creating new technologies. (larger distances created a need for steam vehicles, better built vessels etc.).

To put it in a nutshell, whoever has the power has the last word about what democracy is and the West is doing exactly that. If Turkey emerged victorious from this long battle we would be talking about a different kind of social structure hence democracy.

As for Americans having golden hearts. I have no objections since I have nothing against the man in the street. Nevertheless, if we should more correctly judge nations by their political decisions we must say, a country that resorted to mass-destruction weapons twice in its near history indiscriminately murdering tens of thousands of innocent civilians including babies, mothers and children can hardly be called a good one. Whoever did and whoever endorsed that were war criminals, and they certainly deserve to go to hell.



Edited (11/2/2012) by vineyards

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11.       trip
297 posts
 02 Nov 2012 Fri 10:59 am

Oh, we tread dangerous ground now.

I wonder if you have read Niall Ferguson´s "Civilization: The West and the Rest." In it, he talks about this rise of the West and how the Ottomans fell behind because they held to their traditional ways and beliefs, rather than taking up the printing press, science, etc., at the same time the West did. He also talks about how Turkey then began to catch up through the efforts of Ataturk. And how today Turkey is a rising power again.

These theories about East and West are very interesting to me. But that doesn´t mean I think the West is necessarily better. Obviously, I have great respect for Turkish culture or I wouldn´t be here. I love Turkish music and literature and food and architecture. Science and progress are important, but they are only enhanced by a rich history, by beauty, by soul. Turkey has all of these things.

As for the evil empire of America, I can´t argue with you about weapons of mass destruction. But it was another generation that made those decisions. There is a new generation in America, as there is in Turkey. We must remember the bad things, and talk about them freely, so they don´t happen again. But it is only destructive to blame a current generation for choices made by its predecessors. This is something that I would think Turks could understand, yes? Bits of history that can´t be shaken? Sometimes we have to let go of the hatreds and animosities in order to move forward with each other.

Let´s end our discussion in peace, Vineyards. I mean no harm.

Trip 

P.S. -- And as a rising power, perhaps Turkey will shape the world´s view of democracy someday. It is already setting an example of prosperity and progress for many in the Middle East.



Edited (11/2/2012) by trip
Edited (11/2/2012) by trip

12.       og2009
409 posts
 02 Nov 2012 Fri 03:24 pm

Have you read "The Clash of Civili<ations and the Remarking of World Order"

by Samuel P.Huntington ?

This political book is searching a new world order.

But there is only one wrong in this book.CIVILIZATION.

ıt is : Civilization is the world global civilization and the civilization is unique.But the cultures are different.

Western civilization considers western civilization was the only civilization in this planet.But there were so many civilizations in the past. We must respect old civilizations:

The history of lost or old civilizations comprises Atlantis, Inca, Maya, Aztek, Turkish Aegean District, Helenic Period, Mesopotamia/Sumer, Ancient Egypt, Ancient China and so many others from unknown.

I think the civilization of the world is the sum of them.

And democracy and human rights require high level community and intellectual culture and background for the whole world countries.

A new world order is forming now.A good progress.

And I can tell you "The Constitution of the United States is the best constitution as the highest level legal document in the world for the name of democracy and human right.

.

13.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 02 Nov 2012 Fri 05:50 pm

 

Quoting og2009

Have you read "The Clash of Civili<ations and the Remarking of World Order"

by Samuel P.Huntington ?

This political book is searching a new world order.

But there is only one wrong in this book.CIVILIZATION.

ıt is : Civilization is the world global civilization and the civilization is unique.But the cultures are different.

Western civilization considers western civilization was the only civilization in this planet.But there were so many civilizations in the past. We must respect old civilizations:

The history of lost or old civilizations comprises Atlantis, Inca, Maya, Aztek, Turkish Aegean District, Helenic Period, Mesopotamia/Sumer, Ancient Egypt, Ancient China and so many others from unknown.

I think the civilization of the world is the sum of them.

And democracy and human rights require high level community and intellectual culture and background for the whole world countries.

A new world order is forming now.A good progress.

And I can tell you "The Constitution of the United States is the best constitution as the highest level legal document in the world for the name of democracy and human right.

.

Both Huntington and his theory of CLASH BETWEEN CIVILIZATIONS are "out" now.

The new "in" theory and practice now is CLASH WITHIN THE CIVILIZATIONS. a far less dangerous practice for our Western friends.

Look whats happening between different sects of Islam nowadays; Sunni Islam against the Shia Islam.

Divide and rob, is the Western principle.

 

 

14.       og2009
409 posts
 02 Nov 2012 Fri 09:17 pm

Quote:

Add quoted text here

The world media says the USA had designed its politıcal sciences according to this book.
But this books image was wrong about the civilizations.
This book says "he Clash of Civilizations.."
It was wrong.Because there is only one civilization in this planet.
And it is sum of the world civilizations.So it is inique.
It should have told "The Clash of cultures..."
And  as AlphaF said "The Huntington´s  is "out" now.
According to the World Media, as a dangerous practice, some western friends are using
"democracy" and "human rights" as a tool to devide some
countries.
As AlphaF said it is a "divide and rob" policy.He is right.
In fact, as the historians knows very well,
the "Divide, destroy, manage and rob policy" was discovered by ASSYRIA (ASSUR, ASHUR, ASUR) EMPIRE ( BC 2000-609).
It is an ancient policy according to the political science.

15.       trip
297 posts
 03 Nov 2012 Sat 08:34 am

I am afraid you all give the West too much credit. We are not that organized. Divide and conquer? Until Iraq, we didn´t even understand the difference between Sunni and Shia. And you think that the West can manage the East? Think again! Do you think Mr. Erdoğan is a fool? Do you think Hu Jintao and Xi Jinping are fools? Do you think Vladimir Putin is a fool? Believe me, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have their work cut out for them with these leaders. They have met their match in many ways. (And if America elects Mitt Romney on Tuesday, he will more than meet his match!) And then there are the countries where disorder is the ruler at the moment: Egypt, Libya, Syria. It´s hard to divide and conquer when you can´t even tell who you´re dividing.

Give your own leaders more credit. They are smart. They are not going to let the West dictate to them -- unless they see some reason in it for their own nation. The chip must come off your shoulders, dostlar!

16.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 03 Nov 2012 Sat 02:57 pm

 

Quoting trip

 

Give your own leaders more credit. They are smart. They are not going to let the West dictate to them -- unless they see some reason in it for their own nation. The chip must come off your shoulders, dostlar!

 

West can dictate anything if you come under it economically. Look at the situation of Greece. By the way let me tell you something. You mentioned coups made in Turkey before. And you implied now Turkey is getting more democratic because army can´t make a coup anymore. Nobody can make a coup in Turkey against a government which USA supports. This includes old coups too. USA has a bigger influence on Turkish politics than you think. The role of USA in the Turkish millitary coups must be searched throughly. But it doesn´t seem possible now.



Edited (11/3/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (11/3/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (11/3/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (11/3/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (11/3/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (11/3/2012) by gokuyum

17.       vineyards
1954 posts
 03 Nov 2012 Sat 04:19 pm

Of course, any discussion involving opposing sides must be based on impartiality rather than fanatism. I could sing praises of the West for hours. We all owe a great deal for the eminent scientists, philosophers and men of letters the West contributed to humanity. I have learned a lot from them and many of them are my personal heroes.

Let us remember Yin and Yang the famous Chinese symbol that represents the unity of opposing poles and the constant transformation between them. The situation between the West and the East is very much like that. The East and the West are actually the same thing, they are one. They mutually influence each other.

I love the West. I can´t imagine a world without them. If it weren´t for the perpetual competition between these two, we could never get to the point where we are now. We must both be against hatred. What I am trying to do is to criticize the obvious misdeeds of both parties.



Edited (11/3/2012) by vineyards

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18.       trip
297 posts
 05 Nov 2012 Mon 09:17 am

I´m sorry, Gokuyum, I shouldn´t speak of things I don´t completely understand. As an American I have no idea what it is like to go through a coup or to live under the restrictions that come with one. I only meant that the natural swings of democracy may be harder to accept at first if a country has been through such harsh times.

And I agree with you that the West´s economic clout is its real power. But that may change someday, too. America is deeply in debt to China. Europe is struggling to keep its finances from tearing it apart. The world keeps changing, albeit slowly.

Teşekkürler, Vineyards, for your words of reason. East and West are one. We are one big world more than ever before. 

Here is an article I hope everyone here will find interesting. It goes along with our discussion and appeared in Sunday´s Washington Post. On Page 1 of the paper edition -- which should show you how central Turkey is today to the outlook in our capital.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-turkey-syria-poses-a-new-test-for-erdogans-authority/2012/11/03/12c5cfce-2445-11e2-92f8-7f9c4daf276a_story.html

19.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 06 Nov 2012 Tue 08:18 am

 

Quoting trip

I´m sorry, Gokuyum, I shouldn´t speak of things I don´t completely understand. As an American I have no idea what it is like to go through a coup or to live under the restrictions that come with one. I only meant that the natural swings of democracy may be harder to accept at first if a country has been through such harsh times.

And I agree with you that the West´s economic clout is its real power. But that may change someday, too. America is deeply in debt to China. Europe is struggling to keep its finances from tearing it apart. The world keeps changing, albeit slowly.

Teşekkürler, Vineyards, for your words of reason. East and West are one. We are one big world more than ever before. 

Here is an article I hope everyone here will find interesting. It goes along with our discussion and appeared in Sunday´s Washington Post. On Page 1 of the paper edition -- which should show you how central Turkey is today to the outlook in our capital.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-turkey-syria-poses-a-new-test-for-erdogans-authority/2012/11/03/12c5cfce-2445-11e2-92f8-7f9c4daf276a_story.html

 

You are either too naive, or too smart for us Turks....cant tell which.

 

THERE HAS NOT BEEN ONE SUCCESSFUL MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY THAT WAS NOT ORGANIZED AND SUPPORTED BY USA.....Does that tell you anything?

20.       trip
297 posts
 06 Nov 2012 Tue 09:30 am

Quote: AlphaF

You are either too naive, or too smart for us Turks....cant tell which.

 

THERE HAS NOT BEEN ONE SUCCESSFUL MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY THAT WAS NOT ORGANIZED AND SUPPORTED BY USA.....Does that tell you anything?

Okay, no more arguments. America is an evil empire. It is the root of all of Turkey´s problems. Even if the Cold War and, hopefully, the era of Turkish coups are past. And even if the men who made the policies of those years are long gone. ... If blaming America makes you feel better, AlphaF, that is your choice. I myself prefer optimism and self-determination.

 

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