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4 x istemek
1.       Abla
3647 posts
 31 Dec 2012 Mon 02:48 pm

istemek is a peculiar verb. It roots from a verb meaning ´going after, following´. But in present day language just like it was not one but three or four verbs:

 

 

1. to feel desire

Birşey yemek istiyoruz.


 

2. to ask, to utter a wish

When mother said grain is finished Keloğlan answered: Komsulardan isteriz.

In this sense istemek can also be used in the imperative form: Hukümetten yardım isteyin.

 

 

3. to be necessary

Yurdun ilerlemesi için çok çalışmak ister.

Does it work in other persons also or has it developed into an adjective like gerek?

 

 

4. in idioms and sayings also something like ´take which ever of the alternatives´

İster sağ ister sol, yeter ki insan ol.

İster misin as a sentence adverbial means just about the same as ya olursa ´what if´ while it still has the concrete meaning also.

 

 

Confusing enough.

basima, tunci, gokuyum and nemanjasrb liked this message
2.       tunci
7149 posts
 31 Dec 2012 Mon 03:18 pm

 

Quoting Abla

istemek is a peculiar verb. It roots from a verb meaning ´going after, following´. But in present day language just like it was not one but three or four verbs:

 

 

1. to feel desire

Birşey yemek istiyoruz.


 

2. to ask, to utter a wish

When mother said grain is finished Keloğlan answered: Komsulardan isteriz.

In this sense istemek can also be used in the imperative form: Hukümetten yardım isteyin.

 

 

3. to be necessary

Yurdun ilerlemesi için çok çalışmak ister.

Does it work in other persons also or has it developed into an adjective like gerek?

 

 

4. in idioms and sayings also something like ´take which ever of the alternatives´

İster sağ ister sol, yeter ki insan ol.

İster misin as a sentence adverbial means just about the same as ya olursa ´what if´ while it still has the concrete meaning also.

 

 

Confusing enough.

 

Good analysis Abla. 

 

3. to be necessary

Yurdun ilerlemesi için çok çalışmak ister.

Does it work in other persons also or has it developed into an adjective like gerek?

it is also used for to be required something which is the same thing as "necessary"

requires

Türkçe öğrenmek sabır ister. [ Türkçe öğrenmek sabır gerektirir]

Learning Turkish requires patience. [ Patience is necessary to learn Turkish]

=============================================

İster sağ ister sol, yeter ki insan ol.

whether you...........or .......


 

 

 



Edited (12/31/2012) by tunci

basima liked this message
3.       Abla
3647 posts
 31 Dec 2012 Mon 03:49 pm

The lyrics of a Mavi Sakal song plays with this ambiguity (and others, too).

 

İster misin bulut yağsın gökyüzünden

yine de ister misin?

İster misin ölüm yağsın söz yüzünden

yine de ister misin?

Diler misin demir yağsın ön yüzünden

acımadan ister misin?

İster misin yıkılsın tüm köprülerin

yine de ister misin?

 

It is impossible to translate it literally, so I just let it go. My Try:

 

What if it rained heavily from the sky

are you still along?

What if people died in great numbers because of a word that has been said

are you still along?

What if it rained iron because everyone wants the pole position

are you still along with no pain of conscience?

What if all your bridges were ruined

are you still along?

 



Edited (12/31/2012) by Abla

4.       si++
3785 posts
 31 Dec 2012 Mon 04:08 pm

 

Quoting Abla

The lyrics of a Mavi Sakal song plays with this ambiguity (and others, too).

 

İster misin bulut yağsın gökyüzünden

yine de ister misin?

İster misin ölüm yağsın söz yüzünden

yine de ister misin?

Diler misin demir yağsın ön yüzünden

acımadan ister misin?

İster misin yıkılsın tüm köprülerin

yine de ister misin?

 

It is impossible to translate it literally, so...

 

 

We had talked about 3rd person imperative being used for condition here:

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_52268

 

See for example post # 8.

 

We see the same usage in the lyrics.

 

So for example:

İster misin bulut yağsın gökyüzünden

 

Would you like if clouds above rain (or turn into rain)

 



Edited (12/31/2012) by si++

5.       tunci
7149 posts
 31 Dec 2012 Mon 04:09 pm

 

it is also " needing" 


Bu ev iyi bir tamirat istiyor

This house needs a good repair.

=====================

 

 

 

 

6.       tunci
7149 posts
 31 Dec 2012 Mon 05:11 pm

 

Sometimes , in colloquial Turkish " İstemez ! "  third person singular aorist form is used for the first person singular as an impolite negative reply [No] when we are offered something or we are asked to do something. We give that impolite reply  it is because whether we are in a bad mood at the time or we got angry or offended with that person.

 

A. Çay alır mısın ?       ----------> Would you like to have some tea ? 

 

B. istemez                    ---------->  NO

 

---------------------------------------

 

A. Otur da dinlen biraz. ---------->  Have a sit and get some rest.

 

B. İstemez                     ----------> NO

---------------------------------------

 

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7.       Abla
3647 posts
 01 Jan 2013 Tue 12:28 pm

It seems that the old *izde- ´to follow, to search for´ (OMG is it really iz there) has both lexicaliced and grammaticalized. The lexical development is meaning 2, ´saying loud what one desires´.

 

Grammaticalizing into more abstract meanings like necessity has gone through getting accustomed to different types of subjects i.e. subjects whose referent is inanimate or in the next step, infinitive. That has opened a road for new pragmatic interpretations.

 

I even drew it but for some reason I cannot copy paste a diagram from Word to the Add Message box. Haha who cares anyway.

 

Thank you tunci. And thank you si++ for reminding that special use of subjunctive  -  certainly these sentences are examples of it.

8.       Umut_Umut
485 posts
 02 Jan 2013 Wed 10:47 am

 

Quoting Abla

It seems that the old *izde- ´to follow, to search for´ (OMG is it really iz there) has both lexicaliced and grammaticalized. The lexical development is meaning 2, ´saying loud what one desires´.

 

Abla, where did you find the verb izdemek? It is still in use in Kazak(izdev), Kyrgyz (izdö and Uyghur Turkish(izdimek).

9.       Abla
3647 posts
 02 Jan 2013 Wed 10:59 am

This is the istemek article of Nişanyan sözlük:

 

iste[mek <900 [ETü] izde- peşinden gitmek, aramak
1070 [ETü] iste-/irte- a.a.
1300-1800 [TTü] iste- a.a.
1680 [TTü] iste- dilemek, murad etmek, gerekmek
<1900 [TTü] istekli  
1942 [YTü] istem isteme yetisi, irade
1976 [YTü] istenç irade 
ETü iz +dA-  iz
Asıl anlamı "peşinden gitmek, aramak" olan fiil, bugünkü anlamını 16. yy´da kazanmıştır.


istek, istekli, isteksiz, istem, istemezük, isten-, istenç, ister, istet- 

 

www.nisanyansozluk.com

 

I am sure you will find it very amusing, Umut.

 

Umut_Umut liked this message
10.       Umut_Umut
485 posts
 02 Jan 2013 Wed 11:02 am

Ah i know that sözlük. I thought you had a different one.

 

We are really lack of etymological dictionaries.

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