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Feminism
(108 Messages in 11 pages - View all)
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20.       MrX67
2540 posts
 01 Mar 2007 Thu 02:00 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting MrX67:

all sort isms can be danger when turned to fanatismand i think when we remember male&female halfs of same whole then i think will no need to be any ism



Can you please explain the claims you make instead of posting a serious statement and leaving it at that?

Males and females are not "halves" - they are entities in themselves! And I think Lyndie intended to talk about feminism in Turkey...! That reminds me of a small conversation I had with one young, educated woman in Turkey. I mentioned feminism and she quickly replied that she's not one. Somehow that was surprising to me... I was about to learn that women in Turkey (the ones I met) love it when men fight for them/give them attention... etc. They are not especially aware of the values of individualism and independence, especially from men. This woman didn't think that men are intrinsically better but she sure loved the power of sexual manipulation. This just shows how women are incredibly responsible for perpetuating the "macho paradox" by validating it and finding it attractive.

i can hear you catwoman,but i think thats not a problem on Turkey,thats the problem of all world..well,sure woman rights may be not enough in Turkey and still planty women living in hard conditions about to bad treats of men.Thats one of the biggest social problem of our people,but i tried to say when you use feminism more then enough as a strick ideology it can be turn on a sexual racism in time.Things changing in Turke after industralization and city life,and i keep my hopes our women will get their all rights as soon as by the social revaliations..

21.       Trudy
7887 posts
 01 Mar 2007 Thu 09:53 pm

Quoting libralady:

I am not a feminist, I like men too much for that man hating stuff.



I do consider myself a feminist but I'm absolutely not a men-hater! That's a very wrong idea about feminism! Feminism for me is fighting (with words and democratic actions, not violence) for equal rights and getting special women-subjects on the political agenda.

22.       Capoeira
575 posts
 01 Mar 2007 Thu 09:56 pm

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting libralady:

I am not a feminist, I like men too much for that man hating stuff.



I do consider myself a feminist but I'm absolutely not a men-hater! That's a very wrong idea about feminism! Feminism for me is fighting (with words and democratic actions, not violence) for equal rights and getting special women-subjects on the political agenda.


+1 Right on sister!

23.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 01 Mar 2007 Thu 10:23 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Anybody interested in continuing the discussion that Lyndie started a year and a half ago? (Maybe that will convince her to visit us more often? )



So, the celebrations have by now been started with this thread, eh? An early welcome to 8th March!

24.       AllTooHuman
0 posts
 01 Mar 2007 Thu 10:29 pm

Quoting MrX67:

all sort isms can be danger when turned to fanatism



"Bilingualism", for instance, is now springing to mind. And just sooner "Multilingualism", which is the fanatic form of "bilingualism."

25.       MrX67
2540 posts
 01 Mar 2007 Thu 10:40 pm

Quoting AllTooHuman:

Quoting MrX67:

all sort isms can be danger when turned to fanatism



"Bilingualism", for instance, is now springing to mind. And just sooner "Multilingualism", which is the fanatic form of "bilingualism."

sound not a bad ism

26.       aenigma x
0 posts
 02 Mar 2007 Fri 01:36 am

Quoting libralady:

I am not a feminist, I like men too much for that man hating stuff. I prefer to think of myself as an equal, not physically as this will never be possible, but mentally, intellectually and competitively in business, DIY, etc and on a lighter note, drinking games. Treat a man as an equal and they will treat you the same - in my experience anyway!



If it were not for the early extreme "bra burners" you would not be enjoying a lot of the freedom that you currently enjoy now

We are VERY different to eachother. Men don't understand the concept of feminism and believe we desire to be like them! NO WAY! I love all the differences in men and women -emotional, mental and physical

I don't want to lose my femininity. However, I also don't wish to be treated as a maid and childcarer or be paid less for doing the same job as a man.

Most men will never understand feminism because they don't even realise that they live in a male dominated society. There are SOME men who TRY hard to be feminist. They will tell themselves they are treating their partner as an equal by helping with all housework and sharing the childcare and then wonder why they don't get praise. Why should they be congratulated for treating a women as an equal human?

Quote a feminist: "This is akin to a white person prancing around a group of African Americans and expecting praise for NOT hating them based on their skin color. The right not to be hated, not to be abused, is a RIGHT. Why in the hell do we need to congratulate you on your “accomplishment” of not being a f**khead to us? It’s insulting and no feminist is going to go out of her way to make you feel better about not abusing half of the population".

27.       Capoeira
575 posts
 02 Mar 2007 Fri 06:20 am

Quoting aenigma x:

Quoting libralady:

I am not a feminist, I like men too much for that man hating stuff. I prefer to think of myself as an equal, not physically as this will never be possible, but mentally, intellectually and competitively in business, DIY, etc and on a lighter note, drinking games. Treat a man as an equal and they will treat you the same - in my experience anyway!



If it were not for the early extreme "bra burners" you would not be enjoying a lot of the freedom that you currently enjoy now

We are VERY different to eachother. Men don't understand the concept of feminism and believe we desire to be like them! NO WAY! I love all the differences in men and women -emotional, mental and physical

I don't want to lose my femininity. However, I also don't wish to be treated as a maid and childcarer or be paid less for doing the same job as a man.

Most men will never understand feminism because they don't even realise that they live in a male dominated society. There are SOME men who TRY hard to be feminist. They will tell themselves they are treating their partner as an equal by helping with all housework and sharing the childcare and then wonder why they don't get praise. Why should they be congratulated for treating a women as an equal human?

Quote a feminist: "This is akin to a white person prancing around a group of African Americans and expecting praise for NOT hating them based on their skin color. The right not to be hated, not to be abused, is a RIGHT. Why in the hell do we need to congratulate you on your “accomplishment” of not being a f**khead to us? It’s insulting and no feminist is going to go out of her way to make you feel better about not abusing half of the population".



So true! In the past and often even now, a woman has had to hide/lose her feminine side in order to be considered on the same playing field. It's a shame and as much as I detest that manly, man hater feminist stereotype I much prefer that to the 'yes dear, coming right up, as you wish honey, oh I don't mind!' image!

28.       christine_usa
284 posts
 02 Mar 2007 Fri 07:17 am

I am struggling a bit with this discussion. Perhaps because the definition of "feminism" or "feminist" is so arbritrary, and laden with meanings that others do not share. Perhaps we should start with- what does the term "feminism" mean to you. I am certain that this term has historical and cultural connotations.

For me- a "feminist", is one who fervently believes that all people, regardless of gender, should have equal power in society. The fact that ther is a "feminist" movement, acknowledges that power in a particular society is unequal. (hence, men have more economic, political, and cultural power), A "feminist" to me is one who believes that ALL people, should have equal power in making life choices. Equal power in political decision making.

Unfortunately, the historical "feminist" movement from the west is laden with "anti-male", bra-burning, aggressive, anti-feminine recollections. Historically, radical actions have always been taken to achieve change. This is what our "feminist sisters of the 70's" had to resort to, to accomplish their ends.

In contemporary terms- I am indeed a radical feminist. And, a very attractive, intelligent, and economically successful woman, who actually may indeed CHOOSE to leave my career, and raise my children, and cook delicious dinners for my husband who I love dearly. I also may choose to work in my job, and my husband may stay at home and raise our children.

But, the fact that I have the power to CHOOSE and be celebrated as an intellectual and partner and full human being is important.

The term "feminism" is too charged and misinterpreted.

It does acknowledge that there is inequity in almost every society, disempowering women. I am curious to understand this more in terms of Turkish society, as I may be leaving my life in America, to move there and raise children.

29.       Aslan
1070 posts
 02 Mar 2007 Fri 09:48 am

'Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions.. for safety on the streets... for child care, for social welfare...for rape crisis centers, women's refuges, reforms in the law.' (If someone says) 'Oh, I'm not a feminist,' (I ask) 'Why? What's your problem?''
- Dale Spender, author of For the Record: The Making & Meaning of Feminist Knowledge, 1985

...to me being a feminist is about recognizing the fact that women are structurally oppressed, i.e. statistically we earn less for the same kind of work, female dominated working places are less paid than male dominated working places and so on...and I want this to change for equality...nothing more - nothing less! I want women to have the same rights - and obligations of course - as men in all aspects...just look at the education level of women in the world...womens possibilities to an education is far from equal in many countries today 2007...I think it is terrible!
I also think that the feminist claims goes hand in hand with the antiracist claims...it is about the same structures in society...
I think it is important to state that I am talking about structures that oppresses on group level...of course there are individual differences...but if we for one second think that the discrimination does not exist just because US has a foreign minister that is both black and female, than we miss the whole point. Surely it would be stupid if Condoleezza Rice stated that discrimination does not exist due to the fact that she has been successful. I think we are all aware of the injustice that is shown in 'the worlds biggest democracy'...

'Because women's work is never done and is underpaid or unpaid or boring or repetitious and we're the first to get fired and what we look like is more important than what we do and if we get raped it's our fault and if we get beaten we must have provoked it and if we raise our voices we're nagging bitches and if we enjoy sex we're nymphos and if we don't we're frigid and if we love women it's because we can't get a 'real' man and if we ask our doctor too many questions we're neurotic and/or pushy and if we expect childcare we're selfish and if we stand up for our rights we're aggressive and 'unfeminine' and if we don't we're typical weak females and if we want to get married we're out to trap a man and if we don't we're unnatural and because we still can't get an adequate safe contraceptive but men can walk on the moon and if we can't cope or don't want a pregnancy we're made to feel guilty about abortion and...for lots of other reasons we are part of the women's liberation movement.' ~Author unknown, quoted in The Torch, 14 September 1987




...I wonder if my chances to find a zillionaire diminished now?

30.       qdemir
811 posts
 02 Mar 2007 Fri 05:12 pm

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