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Feminism
(108 Messages in 11 pages - View all)
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70.       libralady
5152 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 01:52 pm

 

Quoting cynicmystic

You are so childish and predictable cat... why did you delete my last post pertaining to feminism? Was it obscene? No. Was it against the rules? No. Was it a personal insult or harrasment? No.

 

Then just why? Other than for a little power trip...

 

Tisk tisk... bad kitty...

 

 Actually it was me who deleted the post not Catwoman.  In my view it crossed the line and was obscene enough to warrant deleting. 

71.       lady in red
6947 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 05:35 pm

 

Quoting libralady

 

 

 Actually it was me who deleted the post not Catwoman.  In my view it crossed the line and was obscene enough to warrant deleting. 

 

 I agree with libralady and if I had seen it before she did, I would have deleted it. 

72.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 09:56 pm

Since I have angered libra and LIR, two of my favorite mods, I thought I would post something that nobody other than the mighty kitty kat would be able to delete... Here is what I think about feminism...

 

Feminism is, first of all, based on a false assumption. The general ideology behind the feminist movement supposes (falsely) that women have always been the oppressed gender, and that they have been relegated to a lower status by men, who have refused to acknowledge women as their equals. Based on this false assumption is the explanation that, to become equal, women have been fighting for their rights ever since the caveman days gradually gaining one right after another. As romantic as this linear explanation may sound, neither history nor archeological evidence really support this view.

 

In the long scope of human history, the establishment of a patriarchal system is actually a very recent development. The religion of the Goddess was there already and had flourished for thousands of years before the arrival of the patriarchal Gods, such as Yahweh, or Allah. The worship of the Goddess has been traced by archaeologists to go as far back as the Upper Paleolithic cultures of 25,000 B.C. The origins of the Goddess in the early dawn of mankind´s journey is primarily founded on the mother-kinship customs and ancestor worship. Studies of primitive tribes over the last centuries have shown that many "primitive" tribes had not reached the understanding that sex led to conception. The conscious understanding of the male sperm impregnating the female womb did not exist among our ancestors. In the very early stages of our development, the secret of human reproduction was not fully understood, and remained a mystery, as people did not make the direct association between sex and childbirth. As a result, women were mysteriously perceived as the only ones capable of producing their own kind. They were naturally revered as "the giver of life". Because man had not yet made the association between sex and reproduction, the concepts of paternity & fatherhood, which form the foundations of our current modern day patriarchal system, did not exist. Mother was the single parent, and the sole progenitor. Under such matrilinear societies, children assumed the names of their mother´s clan, and the accounts of descent were kept through the female line, running from mother to daughter, rather than from father to son. The names were not the only things that passed along these lines. Titles, and possessions in the form of inheritances, as well as territorial land ownership were retained within the clan under the mother´s name.

 

Archeological evidence suggests that the earliest concepts of religion & ancestor worship developed with the concept that the female had a superior social position in comparison to man. The most tangible evidence are the numerous sculptures, referred to as Venus figures, which go back as far as 25,000 B.C. From Southern France to Lake Baikal in Siberia, the vast Eurasian territories seemed to practice the "Great Mother/Goddess" cult. Moving from the prehistoric era to our historic one, the evidence is there to suggest that the cult of the Goddess existed continuously for thousands of years. The principal deity at Catal Hoyuk of the seventh millennium was a Goddess.The land of Elam, which was located to the East of and contemporary with the Sumerian civilization, also had a Goddess that stood above and apart from all the other Elamite gods. Diodorus Siculus, a Roman who lived 50 years before the birth of Christ, wrote of his travels in northern Africa & the Near East, and reported that the women of Ethiopia carried arms, raised their children communally and practiced communal marriages. In Libya, he described a nation where all authority rested with the woman. The men looked after domestic affairs, reared the children and did as they were told by their wives. Public office could only be held by women, and certain warrior women in Libya formed armies and invaded each other´s territories.

 

According to Egyptian mythology, it was the Goddess Nekhbet better known as Nut/Nit/Net, that, first, placed Ra, the sun god, in the sky. It was also the Goddess Hathor that had created existence in the form of a serpent. Surprisingly, according to Diodorus, Isis was revered as the inventor of agriculture and as the Goddess, who had established the first laws of justice in the land.It was for these reasons that, in the land of Egypt, the queen had greater power and honour than the king, and the wife enjoyed authority over the husband. In fact, husbands actually had to consent in a marriage contract that they would be obedient in all manners to their wives. Herodotus of Greece, who lived several centuries before Diodorus, also noted how the Egyptian women transacted their own affairs & occupied themselves in business, while the husbands stayed home and weaved. The Egyptian women were remarkably free. As late as the 4th century B.C., they enjoyed the privilege of choosing their husbands and the right to divorce him on payment of compensation. The very word pharaoh, which generally sums up the image of a powerful "male" figure, literally means "Great House", referring to the Dynasty perpetuated in a matrilinear fashion.

 

The status of women was also high in the early Sumerian city states. The reforms of Urukagina, which is dated at about 2,300 B.C., refer to Sumerian women who had taken more than one husband. Similar forms of polyandry has also been reported in the Dravidian Goddess-worshipping areas of India even in this century. A group of Sumerian women, known as the Naditu, were engaged in the business activities of the temple, owned real-estate under their own names, lent money from the temples and formed the core of the economic activity in Sumer. They also happened to be the primary scribes who left us those clay tablets written in cuneiform. The epic of Gilgamish explains that the official scribe of the Sumerian Heaven was a woman, while the initial invention of writing was credited to a goddess. In the neighboring Elamite land, the principal deity was the Goddess, known as the "Great Wife", whose male consort Shishinak was known as the "Father of the Weak". In the early periods of Elam, male clergy served the Goddess, and appeared naked before the high priestess, which was also the custom in early Sumer. In Hammurabi´s time, women could demand a divorce, refuse to share their inheritance with their husbands, and seven of Hammurabi´s laws actually deal with the priestesses of the temple and their rights to inherit, suggesting that the economic position of these women was of importance.

 

In western Anatolia, matrilinear descent and Goddess worship continued into classical times. Strabo wrote about Anatolian towns, where children born into unmarried women were legitimate and respectable. The temple of the Goddess in Ephesus, which was the target of psychotic Paul in his zealous efforts, was founded by "Amazons". It was in the land of Lydia that the Greek Hercules was said to be kept as a servile lover to Queen Omphale. Heraclides Ponticus said of the Lycians, "From the old they have been ruled by the women." The Carians, Lycians and Cretens had societies where self-confident women secure in their social status led extremely free sexual lives. According to both Euripedes and Plutarch, Spartan women often spent time in the gymnasia, where they tossed off their clothes and wrestled naked with the men. Plutarch reported that, although monogamy was said to be the official marriage rule, infidelity of Spartan women was glorified. Nicholas of Damascus confirmed that a Spartan woman was entitled to have herself get pregnant by the handsomest man she could find, whether native or foreigner (too bad our thehandsom wasn´t around by then).

 

All of this changed with the establishment of the patriarchal religions, starting with the male deity Yahweh of the Israelites, where women had to accept their subservient position in the patriarchal society. A husband could now divorce his wife, but the wife could not ask for a divorce. The wife called her husband Ba´al or master, as she also called him adon or lord. In a shocking manner, the Mosaic code declared that a woman was to be stoned or burned to death for losing her virginity before marriage - a factor never mentioned in the earlier legal codes of the Near East. If the victimof rape was a single woman, she had to marry the rapist. If she was already married, she would then be stoned to death for having been raped. If she committed adultry, the husband now had the right to murder both the wife and his lover. Along the same lines, women lost their age old rights to engage in economic activities, their inheritance rights, and many others that women of the older generations had enjoyed for thousands of years. The transition from the ancient Goddess religion to the worship of the male deity, as it is the case in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, has been the beginning of the patterns that feminists seem to be fighting against.

 

If you have read this much, I am impressed and thank you for your patience. In conclusion, I feel that the basic ideology of feminism arguing that women have always been victims of subjugation is misleading. There were long periods in human history where women did not only enjoy the same rights as men, but also had a higher status. I find modern day feminism a bit out-dated, and a bit too hairy...

Quoting Lyndie

What do you all think about feminism? I invite all the guys on the site to give their views and understanding of the word. What would you say if I said that Kemal Atutturk was in fact a feminist way ahead of his time! Why waste money educating women if all they will do is stay at home and clean and cook and have babies? Do women have an important role to play in a developing economy? Should women be religious leaders and if not. Why not?

 

 

73.       libralady
5152 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 10:00 pm

 

Quoting cynicmystic

Since I have angered libra and LIR, two of my favorite mods, I thought I would post something that nobody other than the mighty kitty kat would be able to delete... Here is what I think about feminism...

 

 

 You have not angered me, I am just doing my job as an impartial moderator as is Lady in Red.

74.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 10:05 pm

Are you two part of the Goddess Cult of the old days...? 

Quoting libralady

 

 

 You have not angered me, I am just doing my job as an impartial moderator as is Lady in Red.

 

 

75.       femmeous
2642 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 10:40 pm

what a crap. i cant recall that human history going back as far as 25 thousand years BC.

 

76.       libralady
5152 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 10:44 pm

 

Quoting femmeous

what a crap. i cant recall that human history going back as far as 25 thousand years BC.

 

 

 I would be seriously worried if you could Satisfied nod

77.       femmeous
2642 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 11:12 pm

 

Quoting libralady

 

 

 I would be seriously worried if you could Satisfied nod

 

 i see my post was deleted. Satisfied nod

78.       libralady
5152 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 11:14 pm

 

Quoting femmeous

 

 

 i see my post was deleted. Satisfied nod

 

 Which post? I don´t know of any of your posts that have been deleted recently



Edited (3/18/2009) by libralady [Sorry missed a couple of words, being distracted by my whinging cats..........]

79.       femmeous
2642 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 11:19 pm

 

Quoting libralady

 

 

 Which post? I don´t know of any of your posts that have been deleted recently

 

 naaaaaah, have no mood to go into details of who and why deleted my post, that had contained no insult.

btw, before you worried about me. why dont you think a little bit? nobody knows anything about the history that dates back to 25 000. the historians can go as far as 3-4 000 BC.

 

80.       alameda
3499 posts
 18 Mar 2009 Wed 11:28 pm

 

Quoting cynicmystic

As a result, women were mysteriously perceived as the only ones capable of producing their own kind. They were naturally revered as "the giver of life". Because man had not yet made the association between sex and reproduction, the concepts of paternity & fatherhood, which form the foundations of our current modern day patriarchal system, did not exist. Mother was the single parent, and the sole progenitor. Under such matrilinear societies, children assumed the names of their mother´s clan, and the accounts of descent were kept through the female line, running from mother to daughter, rather than from father to son. The names were not the only things that passed along these lines. Titles, and possessions in the form of inheritances, as well as territorial land ownership were retained within the clan under the mother´s name.

 

Archeological evidence suggests that the earliest concepts of religion & ancestor worship developed with the concept that the female had a superior social position in comparison to man. The most tangible evidence are the numerous sculptures, referred to as Venus figures, which go back as far as 25,000 B.C. From Southern France to Lake Baikal in Siberia, the vast Eurasian territories seemed to practice the "Great Mother/Goddess" cult

 

 

 Interesting post....I notice most the "Venus" figures look quite gravid. .....it looks like some of them are actually 27,000 years old. 

Hmmm...just noticed they say the one at the top of this page is:

 

"The female figurine from Berekhat Ram, in Israel. It is the oldest known figurative carving in the world, and is somewhere between 233 000 and 800 000 years old, older than Neanderthal man, and probably carved by Homo Erectus."



Edited (3/18/2009) by alameda [added info]

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