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ler + di
(29 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
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1.       Gölge
posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 10:28 pm

This may be a stupid question but I am stuck on something in grammar that I learned before but forgot... It´s a bit difficult to explain but I will try my best... to explain with examples.

´They were coming´ = geliyor-lar-dı ... in this case the ´dı´ is imek-form, and these come after ´ler/lar´...

 

But my question is the next example... ´They have come´. Is it gel-ler-di (and is the ´di´ again too ´weak´ to break up ´lar´?) Or is it gel-di-ler (and is the ´di´ this time ´stronger´ because it´s not an imek-form this time?

 

I really need this answer so I hope someone can answer soon... Sorry if it´s a stupid question.

2.       burakk
309 posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 10:35 pm

its not stupid. in "geli yor lar dı", there are two tenses. yor and dı. bileşik zaman. in "gel di ler" there is only one tense. dı.

ler comes after the first tense because the second tense, the "ek fiil", comes to the end of the word. gelmişlerdi, gelirlerdi, etc these are actually all gelmişler idi, gelirler idi etc. so the second tense comes to the end of the word, after everything.



Edited (8/24/2013) by burakk

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3.       Gölge
posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 10:38 pm

So ler always comes after the first tense? So the correct answer to my second example is ´geldiler´?

4.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 10:46 pm

ler/lar is a personal ending here (for third person plural) So it must be always at the end. 

geliyordular

Also look at here: http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/go.php?D1=31&T1=gelmek

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5.       burakk
309 posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 10:49 pm

Yes correct is geldiler

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6.       Gölge
posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 10:51 pm

Oh I guess my professor is wrong because I have in my notes right in front of me ´geliyorlardı´. That ler/lar exceptionally comes before ´dı´ here because it´s an imek-form, a ´help-tense´ :-/

 

But thank you!!

7.       Gölge
posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 10:52 pm

Thank you to you too Burakk  çok teşekkürler!

8.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 11:01 pm

 

Quoting Gölge

Oh I guess my professor is wrong because I have in my notes right in front of me ´geliyorlardı´. That ler/lar exceptionally comes before ´dı´ here because it´s an imek-form, a ´help-tense´ :-/

 

But thank you!!

Yes it is past of i-mek form. But there is no such a rule ler must come before it. At least I havent heart such a rule. Also you can look at the link I gave you for verb conjugations. It is like I said there too.

 

9.       Gölge
posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 11:03 pm

Tamam

10.       burakk
309 posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 11:15 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

ler/lar is a personal ending here (for third person plural) So it must be always at the end. 

geliyordular

Also look at here: http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/go.php?D1=31&T1=gelmek

 

actually both works

 

Past Progressive, narrative

ben   geliyordum
sen   geliyordun
o     geliyordu
biz   geliyorduk
siz   geliyordunuz
onlar geliyordular; geliyorlardı

 

 

Örnek: Bir güzelin hayranı i-di-m>hayranıydım, hayranı idik>hayranıydık
Zeki idi>zekiydi
Ali imiş>Ali’ymiş,
Hasta ise>hastaysa,
Nöbetçi iken>nöbetçiyken,
Merhametli imişler>merhametliymişler
Merhametliler imiş>merhametlilermiş

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11.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 11:18 pm

 

Quoting burakk

 

 

actually both works

 

Past Progressive, narrative

ben   geliyordum
sen   geliyordun
o     geliyordu
biz   geliyorduk
siz   geliyordunuz
onlar geliyordular; geliyorlardı

 

 

Örnek: Bir güzelin hayranı i-di-m>hayranıydım, hayranı idik>hayranıydık
Zeki idi>zekiydi
Ali imiş>Ali’ymiş,
Hasta ise>hastaysa,
Nöbetçi iken>nöbetçiyken,
Merhametli imişler>merhametliymişler
Merhametliler imiş>merhametlilermiş

 

Yeah it looks like both of them work but why only for third person plural? Only a misuse of suffix can explain it. This misuse became common in time I guess.



Edited (8/24/2013) by gokuyum

12.       Gölge
posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 11:38 pm

Ohhhh Allaha şükkür, my faith in my professor is restored! Thaaank you

13.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 11:43 pm

 

Quoting Gölge

Ohhhh Allaha şükkür, my faith in my professor is restored! Thaaank you

 

Come on it is still a mistake

14.       burakk
309 posts
 24 Aug 2013 Sat 11:51 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

 

Yeah it looks like both of them work but why only for third person plural? Only a misuse of suffix can explain it. This misuse become common in time I guess.

 

I think the reason is that in most Turkic accents in the past, personal suffixes came before ekfiil. But in Ottoman it always came after. So I think its a matter of accent.

 

But according to todays rules it should come final. So the professor and me are indeed wrong

 



Edited (8/24/2013) by burakk

15.       Gölge
posts
 25 Aug 2013 Sun 12:08 am

Well I am doing it his way on my exam

16.       Gölge
posts
 25 Aug 2013 Sun 12:11 am

Well my professor is seen as a big genius, so you can always contact him on youtube and let him know he is wrong I am not saying it.

17.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 25 Aug 2013 Sun 12:12 am

 

Quoting Gölge

Well I am doing it his way on my exam

 

I would certainly fail you

18.       Gölge
posts
 25 Aug 2013 Sun 12:13 am

Well my professor is seen as a big genius, so you can always contact him on youtube and let him know he is wrong I am not saying it.

19.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 25 Aug 2013 Sun 12:17 am

 

Quoting Gölge

Well my professor is seen as a big genius, so you can always contact him on youtube and let him know he is wrong I am not saying it.

There is a saying in Turkish " who knows a lot is also mistaken a lot"

 

20.       burakk
309 posts
 25 Aug 2013 Sun 12:20 am

 

Quoting Gölge

Well my professor is seen as a big genius, so you can always contact him on youtube and let him know he is wrong I am not saying it.

 

Whats his youtube?

21.       Gölge
posts
 25 Aug 2013 Sun 12:24 am

Thank God you are not my teacher  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv22K9yraTI this is him.. I just saw it´s not really HIS youtube so you can´t actually contact him hh sorry I am sure you can find him on Google if you would want to He has Wikipedia too, you will see, he really IS a smart man.

22.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 25 Aug 2013 Sun 09:28 pm

onlar geliyordular,
onlar
geliyorlardı.

Although "geliyordular" is correct, "geliyorlardı" is more natural. Prefer "geliyorlardı"

23.       Gölge
posts
 25 Aug 2013 Sun 11:32 pm

teşekkür ederim

24.       Abla
3647 posts
 31 Aug 2013 Sat 12:37 am

Quote: gokuyum

Yeah it looks like both of them work but why only for third person plural? Only a misuse of suffix can explain it. This misuse became common in time I guess.

It must have something to do with the double life of LAR as a plural marker and as a personal ending.

 

LAR looks confusingly innocent but learners be warned it is not.

25.       Gölge
posts
 01 Sep 2013 Sun 01:57 am

It´s not at all easy, indeed. Teşekkür ederim, Abla!

26.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 01 Sep 2013 Sun 03:25 am

 

Quoting Abla

 

It must have something to do with the double life of LAR as a plural marker and as a personal ending.

 

LAR looks confusingly innocent but learners be warned it is not.

 

Actually it is only for plural. In personal endings, it makes "o" (he/she/it) plural as "onlar"

for "o" singular there is no personal ending in "geliyor" (he is coming), when we make plural we add "-lar" to non-exist third singular pronoun. and the result "geliyorlar" (they are coming)

27.       Gölge
posts
 01 Sep 2013 Sun 03:31 am

I think abla meant personal (what you are saying personal plural, onlar) and plural (kitaplar)..

28.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 01 Sep 2013 Sun 04:55 am

 

Quoting Gölge

I think abla meant personal (what you are saying personal plural, onlar) and plural (kitaplar)..

 

anyway, lets dont go into too deep otherwise we may drown!

29.       Gölge
posts
 01 Sep 2013 Sun 05:10 am

Haha yes better, specially for me, I am just a 1st year student  

 

Ama herkese gerçekten tüm kalbimle teşekkür ediyorum .. My exam went well! And there was a question about it so thank you!!

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