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"olmak" as a Copula?
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1. |
15 Sep 2013 Sun 11:57 am |
Recently I have very often come accross with expressions like
Her zaman çok iyi oldun.
Annen nasıl oldu?
According to what I have learned I would use the ek fiil here: çok iyiydin, nasıldı. Doing so would I make a mistake?
This usage is mentioned in Göksel and Kerslake´s Comprehensive grammar: "In nominal sentences oldu does not always denote change in state (´become´ )." But I wonder, is it very usual, is it getting more usual?
Edited (9/15/2013) by Abla
Edited (9/15/2013) by Abla
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15 Sep 2013 Sun 12:28 pm |
Her zaman çok iyi oldun. You have been always good.
Annen nasıl oldu? How is your mom so far? (Has she got recovered from illness, etc.)
Her zaman çok iyiydin. you were always good.
Annen nasıl? how is your mom?
shortly, in first two sentences, there is present perfect tense meaning. actually there is no such tense in turkish but if we have to express that meaning we use like that.
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15 Sep 2013 Sun 03:30 pm |
Do you mean Her zaman çok iyiydin does not have the meaning ´you are still good´? I have understood (I)DI attached to nominals never denotes perfective action (i.e. action finished and done with).
If you want to ask ´how was your mother last time you met her´ what would be the most adequate translation?
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15 Sep 2013 Sun 07:31 pm |
Do you mean Her zaman çok iyiydin does not have the meaning ´you are still good´? I have understood (I)DI attached to nominals never denotes perfective action (i.e. action finished and done with).
If you want to ask ´how was your mother last time you met her´ what would be the most adequate translation?
My learner´s try would be: Annen, onu son defa gördüğünde, nasıldı?
Or: Anneni son defa gördügünde o nasıldı?
But of course, I´m waiting for İkicihan´s answer
Btw, thanks a lot, Abla, for interesting question, and İkicihan for no less interesting answer.
Edited (9/15/2013) by tomac
Edited (9/15/2013) by tomac
Edited (9/15/2013) by tomac
Edited (9/15/2013) by tomac
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15 Sep 2013 Sun 08:52 pm |
Do you mean Her zaman çok iyiydin does not have the meaning ´you are still good´? I have understood (I)DI attached to nominals never denotes perfective action (i.e. action finished and done with).
If you want to ask ´how was your mother last time you met her´ what would be the most adequate translation?
He wants to say it can give present perfect tense meaning. Action is still going on.
Translation: Annenle son görüştüğünde nasıldı?
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16 Sep 2013 Mon 04:19 am |
my english is limited and grammatical terms confuses me. i wait for some professionals to give better answers.
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16 Sep 2013 Mon 09:10 am |
my english is limited and grammatical terms confuses me. i wait for some professionals to give better answers.
Your answer is fine. The present perfect interpretation never occurred my mind. It means ol- really adds something to the sentence and changes the aspect of the action.
Thank you.
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16 Sep 2013 Mon 10:22 am |
Do you mean Her zaman çok iyiydin does not have the meaning ´you are still good´? I have understood (I)DI attached to nominals never denotes perfective action (i.e. action finished and done with).
If you want to ask ´how was your mother last time you met her´ what would be the most adequate translation?
Come on Abla. I remember the long threads we had discussed about -di having perfective meaning.
Güzel-di = It´s beautiful/nice (for example: The meal we have just eaten or the movie we have just watched)
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16 Sep 2013 Mon 10:32 am |
He wants to say it can give present perfect tense meaning. Action is still going on.
Translation: Annenle son görüştüğünde nasıldı?
Isn´t it called "present continuous"?
From wikipedia:
The present perfect is a grammatical combination of the present tense and the perfect aspect, used to express a past event that has present consequences. The term is used particularly in the context of English grammar, where it refers to forms such as "I have left" and "Sue has died".
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16 Sep 2013 Mon 12:46 pm |
Isn´t it called "present continuous"?
From wikipedia:
The present perfect is a grammatical combination of the present tense and the perfect aspect, used to express a past event that has present consequences. The term is used particularly in the context of English grammar, where it refers to forms such as "I have left" and "Sue has died".
This is only one of the uses of the present prefect.
When I´m asking "How long have you been waiting?", it implies that you are still waiting, unlike with "How long did you wait?". I think this is the use case that Gokuyum is talking about.
Edited (9/16/2013) by Khaur
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11. |
16 Sep 2013 Mon 01:07 pm |
This is only one of the uses of the present prefect.
When I´m asking "How long have you been waiting?", it implies that you are still waiting, unlike with "How long did you wait?". I think this is the use case that Gokuyum is talking about.
Yeah, isn´t it called present perfect continuous which is used to talk about an action or actions that started in the past and continued until recently or that continue into the future?
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16 Sep 2013 Mon 03:26 pm |
Yeah, isn´t it called present perfect continuous which is used to talk about an action or actions that started in the past and continued until recently or that continue into the future?
You caught me there. I don´t even notice anymore when I´m switching to the continuous version of tenses...
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16 Sep 2013 Mon 04:55 pm |
Continuous or not, the present perfect denotes an action that has begun in the past and continues until now (or its consequenses are still there). In
How long have you studied Turkish?
there is no mark of continuous aspect but the time conditions are the same.
Interestingly, in Turkish present tense with continuous aspect (öğreniyorsunuz) would be used in such expressions.
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But I must confess I have maybe misunderstood something. Yes, Göksel and Kerslake say the past copula ((y)DI < *er + DI) expresses past tense and imperfective aspect. It presents a situation, a state of affairs (i.e. not a perfected action, of course, "being" is seldom perfective) as it was at some time in the past. But definitely in the past. This is what I missed.
ol- is used for changing the time conditions so that the actions reaches the present moment. It reminds me of expressions where olmak is used in nominal sentences also in order to create habitual aspect:
Bazı akşamlar film oluyor(du).
I mean if you have to hang another grammatical marker into a verb phrase, where else could you hang it but to olmak?
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17 Sep 2013 Tue 10:07 am |
Continuous or not, the present perfect denotes an action that has begun in the past and continues until now (or its consequenses are still there).
continues? hmmm...
I will refer to wikipedia definition for present perfect again.
The present perfect is a grammatical combination of the present tense and the perfect aspect, used to express a past event that has present consequences. The term is used particularly in the context of English grammar, where it refers to forms such as "I have left" and "Sue has died".
See it says a past event. This seems appropriate for English (and also for Turkish) but may be different for some other languages.
-di has sometimes perfect aspect but if it is present perfect continuous, -di disappers and we use another suffix for it.
I have been living here since I was a child. = Çocukluktan beri burada yaşamaktayım.
I have lived here since I was a child. = Çocukluktan beri burada yaşadım.
"I´ve lived here" indicates that you may not be living here presently. You may still be living here but that doesn´t give a clue if you are still living here.
I´ve been living here indicates that you have lived here and continue to do so.
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