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Neden/Niye
(23 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
1 [2] 3
10.       olphon
106 posts
 13 Apr 2014 Sun 09:31 am

The only reason I am not handsome is because I am very handsome. Very much above average. And speaking of Armenians, there´s this great etymological dictionary by an Armenian guy, which did not give any explanation for "niye". So I had to improvise.

http://nisanyansozluk.com/?k=niye&x=0&y=0

11.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 13 Apr 2014 Sun 04:49 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

I thought he was "handsome". But I guess he is not He impressed me with his explanations about Turkish grammar and he hasnt written anything yet about Armenian genocide

 

 

maybe vona/ scalpel   {#emotions_dlg.holy}

12.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 14 Apr 2014 Mon 10:33 pm

 

Quoting olphon

 

No I´m not.

You really must have missed that guy. Reminds me of Yılmaz Erdoğan´s "o da ekmek yerdi."

 

 

They really miss me 

(this is just to save you from wrath of si++) Cool

13.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 12:36 am

i heard villagers say: "ne diye geldin?" why did you come?

"ne diye" and "niçin" are same in meaning but niçin is common in cities while ne diye common in rural areas.

i dont know the origin of "niye"
"ne-ye": to what, seems logical when i look at the structure. at the same time "ne diye" is logical when i look at usage and meaning. i vote for ne diye.



Edited (4/15/2014) by ikicihan

olphon and am_1010 liked this message
14.       si++
3785 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 08:49 am

 

Quoting ikicihan

i heard villagers say: "ne diye geldin?" why did you come?

"ne diye" and "niçin" are same in meaning but niçin is common in cities while ne diye common in rural areas.

i dont know the origin of "niye"
"ne-ye": to what, seems logical when i look at the structure. at the same time "ne diye" is logical when i look at usage and meaning. i vote for ne diye.

 

Well, Before subscribing to semething blindly, just look at it again once more, it´s right there begging for you to see it!

 

That kind of phonetic change would leave traces in the past, can you provide any evidence to support that change you vote for?

 

Umut_Umut liked this message
15.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 05:08 pm

At the first sight "niye" looks like it is formed from the question word "ne" with the suffix "-e/a" (ne+e = neye = niye) but "neye" still is there and in use. "neye" means "at/to what" whereas "niye" means "why". For example, "neye baktın?" means what did you look at?" and "niye baktın?" means "why did you look?" This is not to say TC´s official Turkish grammar expert dear si++ is wrong but just flame the discussion Wink 



Edited (4/15/2014) by scalpel - -

16.       Abla
3648 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 05:27 pm

Quote: scalpel--

"neye" means "at/to what" whereas "niye" means "why". For example, "neye baktın?" means what did you look at?" and "niye baktın?" means "why did you look?"

 

I don´t think ABL and DAT are so distant. What about

 

                    Neden korkuyorsun? Sevmekten.

                    Niye korkuyorsun? Sevmeye.

 

Both could be translated with ´why´.

 

I don´t believe in ne diye. It is a later abstraction. No phonetic erosion at all.

 

The grammaticalization path would be something like:

 

1. Neye bakıyorsun? (AT WHAT) > 2. *Neye korkuyorsun? > 3. Niye korkuyorsun? > 4. Niye bakıyorsun? (WHY)

 

1. Initial state, meaning 1.

2. Widened use with a limited set of verbs, meaning 1. and 2. side by side.

3. Phonetic change supports the semantic change, meaning 2.

4. Generalization of meaning 2.

 

(I am not sure if korkmak is the best possible example here but there must be a context where these two meanings lap together.)



Edited (4/15/2014) by Abla [Actually it is the replies that count.]
Edited (4/15/2014) by Abla

17.       si++
3785 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 05:35 pm

 

Quoting scalpel - -

At the first sight "niye" looks like it is formed from the question word "ne" with the suffix "-e/a" (ne+e = neye = niye) but "neye" still is there and in use. "neye" means "at/to what" whereas "niye" means "why". For example, "neye baktın?" means what did you look at?" and "niye baktın?" means "why did you look?" This is not to say TC´s official Turkish grammar expert dear si++ is wrong but just flame the discussion Wink 

 

I may be wrong. If I am wrong somebody should prove me wrong.

 

I don´t/can´t see any phonetic development like niye < ne diye. If there is any, let me know any related pointers/references.

18.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 09:04 pm

alıntı:

according to someone

"Niye: Corruption of "neye", which is the dative of "ne". To what end?"
source: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2653974&langid=20

according to someone else
"excatly niye is the short version of ´ ne diye ´ and they all exchangeable. niye,neden,niçin"
source: http://www.memrise.com/course/79355/hacking-turkish-1/thread/1305918/

 

19.       livingalive
22 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 11:09 pm

"Niye" has an empty etymology space in Nişanyan Sözlük.

https://www.nisanyansozluk.com/?k=niye&lnk=1

It remains a mystery. I thought it was from neye, but I´ve been studying Turkish for just over a year so I am not very qualified to answer this.

20.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 16 Apr 2014 Wed 11:04 am

 

Quoting Abla

 

 

I don´t think ABL and DAT are so distant. What about

 

                    Neden korkuyorsun? Sevmekten.

                    Niye korkuyorsun? Sevmeye.

 

Both could be translated with ´why´.

 

I don´t believe in ne diye. It is a later abstraction. No phonetic erosion at all.

 

The grammaticalization path would be something like:

 

1. Neye bakıyorsun? (AT WHAT) > 2. *Neye korkuyorsun? > 3. Niye korkuyorsun? > 4. Niye bakıyorsun? (WHY)

 

1. Initial state, meaning 1.

2. Widened use with a limited set of verbs, meaning 1. and 2. side by side.

3. Phonetic change supports the semantic change, meaning 2.

4. Generalization of meaning 2.

 

(I am not sure if korkmak is the best possible example here but there must be a context where these two meanings lap together.)

 

DAt also used for indicating purpose or intented goal. From this point of view,in meaning, -a/-e is very close to "için": sevmeye = sevmek için (as in the example: sevmeye yürek gerek - sevmek için yürek gerek) So back to your example, "neye korkuyorsun - sevmeye" could also be "ne için korkuyorsun - sevmek için." 

I think it is:

-a/-e => için

neye => ne için

niye = niçin

p.s. you don´t have to thank me for my contribution here Cool 

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